Best and worst moral dilemmas in Star Trek

[sonak]

Those arguing against removal still haven't answered between these two choices:

1. Either it's an UFP planet and therefore a legal case of eminent domnain or

2. It's an internal "blood feud" as Picard puts it, between the Son'a and the Baku, which the UFP has no business taking a side in, according to the PD

Which means the Son'a and Baku are free to fight it out, the Son'a win, take the planet, and sell the resources to the UFP and others


anti-removal crowd, how do you respond to this?

 

[T'Girl]

Say you have 600 people in Africa sitting on a mineral that cures hemorrhoids.

I'm sure that in that case, the mineral could be mined in a manner that would not cause the 600 people to have to move.

For arguments sake, let's say it gives off a toxic gas when mined.

For arguments sake, let's say it doesn't. And instead of curing hemorrhoids, it cures lung cancer.

Most likely (real world) the inhabitants of the African village would be employed in the mining, money would flow in, there would be food, clean water, a school, even shoes for everyone. Baring that, the villagers would simply be moved out and dumped somewhere.

Lung cancer killed about one and a half million people last year.

I think the problem was, the Federation has always been depicted as a black box of infinite abundance.

Except it isn't, and they're not. The Federation is shown repeatedly mining minerals on far away worlds, negotiations with governments for medicines, transporting substances through interstellar space, and occasionally running children to Starbases for treatments.

The show really DOESN'T depicted infinite abundance, what abundance they have is because they're going and getting it.

The Federation clearly thought of it as theirs.

The federation was wrong, it wasn't their planet.

There are vast areas of the American southwest where no one lives. No roads, no houses, no businesses, nothing, but it is American territory.

An uninhabited starsystem belongs to no one, when the Baku moved in the planet became theirs ...

The Baku inhabit a single valley and have a reservoir in the hills above it. From this they "get" an entire planet?

The movie said it was a federation world, but why? It wasn't colonized by the federation, there were no space stations, no trade routes they used. Was it theirs because they had a colony two starsystems over?

It was "theirs" because it has no indigenous inhabitants, it sits inside their territory, they have the ability to exercise control over it, their possession of it is acknowledged by others, certainly the Sona do.

If it wasn't the Federations, why would the Sona (who would have every reason not to) involve the Federation in the harvesting of the particles?

What I don't get is why the Sona even contacted the federation.

My best take is that the Sona didn't want future problems with the Federation after (and if) the Federation found out that the Sona removed resources from around a Federation world. It would be like if the Russians slant drilled oil from the north of Alaska, the American government would be pissed.

So the Sona approached the Federation with the knowledge of the metaphasic particles, Starfleet checked out the particles, the Federation council green lighted the project. The small group of foreign refuges would be removed, the particles harvested and the planet damaged for generations.

In time the planet would recover and given enough time probably form another ring.

Who cares about the Baku ...

Both the Sona and the Federation do.

.. the Sona could have build a spa on the other side of the planet to use the radiation.

They didn't have that kind of time, plus as the Admiral pointed out not everyone would want to move to the planet and spend time there. It would be like if you had to quit your job and move right next to the factory that produces the medicine you doctor prescribed to you.

Geordie got brand new eyes in a few days

Geordie's blindness was the result of a birth defect, one the Federation's medical science couldn't fix. But he still had his own eyes and the part of his brain that processed visual input did work in some fashion. Geordi did not get "new eyes," he got his vision back, the particles repair an small existing structure in his head.

I'm sure spending two or three weeks on the planet every other year would have been all the Sona needed.

So stop your life, pull up roots and relocate dozens, hundreds, maybe thousands of light years? And live on a far away world. Do you bring your family, your extended family, all your friends, your job, the home you've built, everything.

Or do you bring a small concentrated portion of the metaphasic particles to your own community and expose yourself to them there?

If they and the federation considered it a federation world, why not simply buy it or trade it?

They did, the Federation traded access, and the Sona traded technology. They divide the harvest.

The federation thought it was just a dinky little world in some stupid place that prevents subspace communication, why wouldn't they give it to the Sona ...

Again, at some point in the future the Federation might discover the whole story, and be mad at the Sona. The Sona "empire' was only a few planets, they likely didn't want to piss off the Federation in the long term.

 

[BillJ]

For arguments sake, let's say it doesn't. And instead of curing hemorrhoids, it cures lung cancer.

***

Lung cancer killed about one and a half million people last year.

I'm sure that many people here have been touched by the cruelty of the various forms of cancer. In that spirit, I think it best to not use it as a framework for an ethical debate about a shitty Star Trek movie.

Besides... hemorrhoids are funny.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Also, 'Insurrection' established that the federation was declining and a fountain of youth would stop this decline.

Sez a bad-guy trying to justify his actions - and who was not exactly Mister Honest at the best of times.

It was the bad guy that said it - but Dougherty (a starfleet admiral loyal to the federationn) immediately agreed to sacrifice Enterprise after being reminded of what's at stake - AKA Dougherty all but confirmed the bad guy's geo-political analysis.

Except his basic analysis is basically the federation gets attacked by new enimies becuase it is some how dying despite the fact that it lasts at least into the 31st century and it would mean the federation is dying when ever a new bad guy showes up. So TOS dying, early TNG dying, 26th century dying. Seems like a healthy organization for one thats dying all the time.

I'm wondering what those particles can replace that Fed science can't. Nog got a perfectly new leg in a matter of days.

Geordi got 'occular implants- he can see even better. In fact in First Contact, it was established he could see just as normally as anyone. The whole scene where he gets emotional over seeing a sunset doesn't make sense in that sense-- he would have experienced that right after he got the implants.

Nog got an artificial/robotic leg; Geordi had cybernetic eyes.
They were as good as the real thing for practical purposes - but, according to Nog/Geordi, something (vaguely defined in the series) was missing.

Again Nog wouldn't be regrowing his leg from the radiation it doesn't work that way.

Those arguing against removal still haven't answered between these two choices:

1. Either it's an UFP planet and therefore a legal case of eminent domnain or

2. It's an internal "blood feud" as Picard puts it, between the Son'a and the Baku, which the UFP has no business taking a side in, according to the PD

Which means the Son'a and Baku are free to fight it out, the Son'a win, take the planet, and sell the resources to the UFP and others


anti-removal crowd, how do you respond to this?

Much as I hate to admit it Its an internal matter. the federation doesn't get involved in them for their actual allies why should they do it for some new guys? hell why are they even working with a Dominion ally. If I'm in the military and I see somebody I'm at war with up to something I shoot him seeing as we're at work.

Ahh, but the Baku were told the whole story by Picard, after he traveled back the the planet in his yacht. The Baku could have at that time selflessly offer to leave the Federation's planet, voluntarily relocate, so as the metaphasic particles could be then harvested for the benefit of many billions of people.

So you are saying to give someone planning to kidnap you whatever they want or you're selfish

If some jackass tried that with me the only thing I would give them is the finger.

 

[sonak]

The Son'a weren't a Dominion ally at the time, they were just selling drugs to them, no different than neutral countries selling arms to countries at war.

Apparently though, Picard's actions in INS DID actually make the Son'a an official Dominion ally, another tragic consequence of this stupid and sloppily written film.


I like the irony of those saying how they wouldn't move from a place even if it meant CURES FOR DISEASES are questioning the ethics of those who would forcibly remove a tiny village.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

The Son'a weren't a Dominion ally at the time, they were just selling drugs to them, no different than neutral countries selling arms to countries at war.

Considering how much trouble the federation went through to take out the Dominion's own supply of the stuff. I'm suprised they weren't going after the Son'a earlier in the war then they started to. Plus neutral powers don't ask one of the sides for help when their being attacked since their neutral or else it looks like their picking a side.

 

[sonak]

The Son'a weren't a Dominion ally at the time, they were just selling drugs to them, no different than neutral countries selling arms to countries at war.

Considering how much trouble the federation went through to take out the Dominion's own supply of the stuff. I'm suprised they weren't going after the Son'a earlier in the war then they started to. Plus neutral powers don't ask one of the sides for help when their being attacked since their neutral or else it looks like their picking a side.

what does this last part mean? When did the Son'a ask the UFP for help when they were being attacked?

 

[BillJ]

anti-removal crowd, how do you respond to this?

I don't think you really can respond to it...

I've been pretty critical of this film over the years but I think it has been with good cause. You start out with an idiotic plan to move six hundred people by hiding a spaceship with transporters underwater for no good reason. Then you're playing games on the planets surface with "duck-blinds" and cloaked personnel running around, we've never seen missions like that go wrong in the past. In orbit, you've partnered up with a ticking time bomb whose clearly a few fruit loops shy of a full box. Then you introduce a starship captain who wraps himself in the flag and fights for truth, justice and the Federation way. A man whose supposedly a deep intellectual yet interferes before he really has any type of grasp on the situation and seems to be incapable of seeing beyond the moment. A man who holds the Prime Directive in such high esteem in his later years that he allows an entire species to die out on orders yet doesn't make an attempt to recuse the Federation from the situation when he finds out it's nothing more than a blood feud.

Nothing in the film indicates that meta-phasics will be a short-term panacea for the Federation, the whole timetable is dictated by Ru'afo being ill.

But those who think that the Federation simply pulling out will benefit the Ba'ku are as short-sighted as Picard. The Federation will simply have to make the Ba'ku some type of protectorate in order to stave off those who do want meta-phasics. Even then the Federation could find itself in a protracted battle to protect the Ba'ku if someone decides that they're will to take on the Federation to possess it. Then the question becomes: how many lives are you willing to give up to protect six hundred people?

 

[sonak]

I think the deceptive removal plan makes sense if you remember that the UFP thinks the Baku are a bunch of pre-warp, pre-contact primitives, and they were trying to come up with a way of removal that was humane and didn't intefere too much with their natural culture.


Again, once Dougherty learns from Picard that they're not, the whole scenario should have changed, and direct negotiations should have began.


But that's not what happens because the movie is poorly written, so the characters act in rigid ways due to plot necessity rather than logic and common sense.

 

[T'Girl]

the UFP thinks the Baku are a bunch of pre-warp, pre-contact primitives

Except the Admiral, and by extension the Federation Council, already know the Baku were refuges from elsewhere.

Only Picard briefly thought the Baku to be primitives.

Admiral Dougherty: "I'm acting on orders form the Federation Council. [snip] The Prime Directive doesn't apply. These people are not indigenous to this planet."

 

[Edit_XYZ]

Sez a bad-guy trying to justify his actions - and who was not exactly Mister Honest at the best of times.

It was the bad guy that said it - but Dougherty (a starfleet admiral loyal to the federationn) immediately agreed to sacrifice Enterprise after being reminded of what's at stake - AKA Dougherty all but confirmed the bad guy's geo-political analysis.

Except his basic analysis is basically the federation gets attacked by new enimies becuase it is some how dying despite the fact that it lasts at least into the 31st century and it would mean the federation is dying when ever a new bad guy showes up. So TOS dying, early TNG dying, 26th century dying. Seems like a healthy organization for one thats dying all the time.

Why didn't the federation died in TOS? Because that generation fought and died - and dirtied its collective hands sometimes - in order for the federation to survive.

Dougherty knew the federation was on a major downward trend. Even if he knew (from classified information) about the federation's survival in the future - that survival doesn't come on a plate, gratuitously; one has to fight for it. Dougherty was doing exactly that - fighting so that the federation survives (so that the optimistic 26, 31 century time line can come into being).


Early TNG federation was not dying - quite the contrary, things were going so well, it got complacent.

Again Nog wouldn't be regrowing his leg from the radiation it doesn't work that way.

You have no basis on which to support this affirmation.
Indeed, Geordy's eyes suggest the contrary - that the ring particles can accomplish feats far beyond federation medical tech (including rebuilding organs missing several essential parts - as Geordi's eyes were).

 

[sonak]

the UFP thinks the Baku are a bunch of pre-warp, pre-contact primitives

Except the Admiral, and by extension the Federation Council, already know the Baku were refuges from elsewhere.

Only Picard briefly thought the Baku to be primitives.

Admiral Dougherty: "I'm acting on orders form the Federation Council. [snip] The Prime Directive doesn't apply. These people are not indigenous to this planet."

Oh, right. oops, ok, so why didn't they just come directly to them?



no movie that way, I suppose. Again, what a poorly concocted scenario.

 

[Captain Mike]

Those arguing against removal still haven't answered between these two choices:

1. Either it's an UFP planet and therefore a legal case of eminent domnain or

2. It's an internal "blood feud" as Picard puts it, between the Son'a and the Baku, which the UFP has no business taking a side in, according to the PD

Which means the Son'a and Baku are free to fight it out, the Son'a win, take the planet, and sell the resources to the UFP and others


anti-removal crowd, how do you respond to this?

So just because it's in Federation space it's automatically a Federation planet?...

This film made it clear to me that there were strange occurrences in the "Federation Council". Maybe much like one arm not knowing what the other was doing?

 

[Temis the Vorta]

During 'Insurrection' it was established that the ring particles would help billions.
How? Unspecified (beyond Geordi getting his eyesight back and Picard&co getting younger).

This was my main problem with the logic of the dilemma - it seemed that the Fed citizens just wanted eternal life. Who says they deserve eternal life? McCoy lived to be at least 137 years old! Isn't that a long enough lifespan for humans? It's creepy that these people would stomp on the rights of others just so they can live unnaturally far past what is normal for their species.

And it's absurd that for instance, Geordi could not get his eyesight back through technology. They can beam people's particles all over the place and reassemble them, so they can assemble a perfectly functioning eyeball that matches Geordi's DNA precisely. (It never made any sense in TNG that Geordi was "handicapped" so I just assumed for the sake of logic that he preferred his visor.)

Expanding on that theme, they must also be able to assemble all other body parts, including brains (which transporters need to be able to re-assemble, so it can't be "too hard"), so there's no reason why Fed citizens couldn't use technology to live forever, in perfect health, if that's what they wanted. Whatever power source they're using must be infinite, or else they couldn't have massively power-consumptive technology like transporters and replicators, so this can't be an issue of limited resources, either. There was never any reason to bother the Bak'u.

Also, 'Insurrection' established that the federation was declining and a fountain of youth would stop this decline.

I don't remember this point at all, so if that was the intent, they didn't get it across. And they wouldn't be able to, since to convince us that the Federation, which has been unassailably powerful through many TV series, is suddenly on the ropes, would require spending some time showing us what's going on with the Federation, and is most likely beyond the scope of a two-hour movie that also wants to include other topics.

With very few exceptions, the Federation has only ever been threatened by external forces; it hasn't been depicted enough for us to understand its internal workings well enough to buy into the notion that there are internal threats. It's just a happy black box of a society.

The Son'a weren't a Dominion ally at the time, they were just selling drugs to them, no different than neutral countries selling arms to countries at war.

Considering how much trouble the federation went through to take out the Dominion's own supply of the stuff. I'm suprised they weren't going after the Son'a earlier in the war then they started to. Plus neutral powers don't ask one of the sides for help when their being attacked since their neutral or else it looks like their picking a side.

This would have been a far better topic for the movie, although it would have required explanation - what's the Dominion War, who are the Jem'hadar, what's ketracel-white? The notion of starving the enemy into submission (because k-white is a food supply rather than a drug, or in addition to being a drug) is a very dicey topic, yet something the Feds would consider if the situation were desperate enough.

 

[Captain Mike]

the UFP thinks the Baku are a bunch of pre-warp, pre-contact primitives

Except the Admiral, and by extension the Federation Council, already know the Baku were refuges from elsewhere.

Only Picard briefly thought the Baku to be primitives.

Admiral Dougherty: "I'm acting on orders form the Federation Council. [snip] The Prime Directive doesn't apply. These people are not indigenous to this planet."

But that was in the first assumption from the "Duck Blind"..wasn't it?....Daugherty knew from his dealings with the Sona and never mentioned it to the "Council". Paid his price for being greedy he did.

 

[sonak]

Those arguing against removal still haven't answered between these two choices:

1. Either it's an UFP planet and therefore a legal case of eminent domnain or

2. It's an internal "blood feud" as Picard puts it, between the Son'a and the Baku, which the UFP has no business taking a side in, according to the PD

Which means the Son'a and Baku are free to fight it out, the Son'a win, take the planet, and sell the resources to the UFP and others


anti-removal crowd, how do you respond to this?

So just because it's in Federation space it's automatically a Federation planet?...

This film made it clear to me that there were strange occurrences in the "Federation Council". Maybe much like one arm not knowing what the other was doing?

so... you're choosing option 2 then?

It's not an UFP affair at all, and it's a blood feud between the Baku and the Son'a, right?


So why is Picard siding with and protecting the Baku? And as BillJ points out, for how long?


Are the Baku under constant protection from the UFP now?

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Except it isn't, and they're not. The Federation is shown repeatedly mining minerals on far away worlds, negotiations with governments for medicines, transporting substances through interstellar space, and occasionally running children to Starbases for treatments.

TOS depicted limited resources, such as the mining operation that Kirk was so desperate to get running again in Devil in the Dark. By the 24th C, the Federation was so awash in resources that a lone ship in the Delta Quadrant, years away from any hope of resupply, could run its holosuites without any worry that they would run out of energy for such fripperies.

The power required to run transporters, replicators and FTL spaceships is so mind-bogglingly huge that even in the 23rd C, they must have had effectively infinite power. And since they had transporter technology, they also had the power to make any substance they wanted, in as large a quantity as they wanted. So Devil in the Dark really makes no sense even for the 23rd C. Why couldn't they just replicate the stuff the miners were mining? The only substance that can't be replicated is latinum, possibly for cultural reasons so that the Ferengi can have their money-based culture.

Star Trek has a longstanding assumption of infinite resources - no doubt for storytelling convenience - which is fine by me, but it makes it very hard to do a 180 and try to base a story on the opposite idea without everyone feeling like "something is wrong here."

 

[sonak]

well you'd think they could keep going the "Pulaski route" for longer lifespans using old transporter records, but Trek has a long standing tradition of ignoring things with show-changing implications.


"Voyager" figuring out how to go warp 10 for example

 

[Captain Mike]

Those arguing against removal still haven't answered between these two choices:

1. Either it's an UFP planet and therefore a legal case of eminent domnain or

2. It's an internal "blood feud" as Picard puts it, between the Son'a and the Baku, which the UFP has no business taking a side in, according to the PD

Which means the Son'a and Baku are free to fight it out, the Son'a win, take the planet, and sell the resources to the UFP and others


anti-removal crowd, how do you respond to this?

So just because it's in Federation space it's automatically a Federation planet?...

This film made it clear to me that there were strange occurrences in the "Federation Council". Maybe much like one arm not knowing what the other was doing?

so... you're choosing option 2 then?

It's not an UFP affair at all, and it's a blood feud between the Baku and the Son'a, right?


So why is Picard siding with and protecting the Baku? And as BillJ points out, for how long?


Are the Baku under constant protection from the UFP now?

No it is not a UFP planet,...at least a "claimed" UFP planet. If it was wouldn't they have already known that a population was there? Or was this a ruse? Get Picard in there, discover the truth, as the film ends all is well. Sounds to me Sonak that you would be the Daugherty villain to go behind council's if for the "greater good".
I like the idea in the "Armada" game that they of course fall under Federation protection...

 

[Nightdiamond]

Nog got something called a biosynthetic leg. It could be robotic, but I always had the impression it was a grown biologcal replacement.

The Feds definetely had knowledge about cloning- they could clone any organ, including nerves and limbs, at least in theory they could.

The Sona's statement about the Feds on the decline-- half truths, I think. Maybe because they were fighting a war where they lost a lot of battles, one could think that.

But being challenged by other powers over the years only means it was challenged by other powers over the years.

Their "economy", tech, and infastructure have been unaffected. Can't say the same about the Cardassians, Romulans, and Klingons, and now, even the Borg (thanks to Voyager).

They made such a weak case-- it was so generic and cliche. The movie was too "alien of the week".
.