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Wonder Woman(NBC) *Spoilers!*

^ If there are three things Wonder Woman is known for, even by people who aren't actually fans, it's her bullet-proof bracelets, her invisible jet, and her Lasso of Truth. Even for those who don't know, it's mentioned up front on her Wikipedia page. The Lasso of Truth even has its own Wikipedia page. It's not like we are talking about anything really esoteric here. As I'm sure you know, Marston, the creator of Wonder Woman, is credited with contributing to the development of the polygraph, for Pete's sake.
 
That's a fair point, but being aware of the lasso's powers doesn't necessarily translate to "missing" it. A viewer who's heard of those things but has no emotional attachment to the character probably wouldn't have a problem with their omission.
 
What pissed me off was.. "The police suck. The law law sucks. It's too slow and congealed. Now if I was to beat people I think might be law breakers to death, no one will mind as long as I'm dressed like a whore, and children are playing with my doll that dresses like a whore, but in no way is that doll to have triple E whore tits, it has to have my compelling double d tits, I can get away with murder. That's the really important thing that my tits are not ridiculous in effigy rather than my bodycount reported on the 6 o'clock news."

That's her mission statement.

And rather than being feared and hunted.

The police chief is in her best friend because he admires that she gets the job done he can't by murdering criminals who would otherwise clog up the courts and prisons.

i'm confused as to how this is supposed to be Wonder Woman?

Huntress maybe?

Possibly an antihero Catwoman project but Wonder Woman?

She floats around in a 20 billion dollar experimental fighter jet looking for drug dealers who must make 10s of dollars from selling gear to school children.

Ridiculous.
 
It was just some really sloppy writing all around. I had high hopes that Kelley would do something interesting with the character, but apparently all he could come up with was a cheesy, superhero version of Ally McBeal.
 
So the top priority is to appeal to new viewers, with fidelity to the source being secondary.
But they shouldn't alienate their "core" either, because they are the ones who spread positive or negative word of mouth.

For example, the new "Punisher" pilot that FOX is producing. I have several friends who enjoy super-hero movies and TV shows, who don't buy comics, who are going to pass on it simply because I told them that I was passing on it. I told them that it didn't sound like they were being faithful to the source material (which is always an issue with me) and that it sounded like "Punisher-in-name-only", more so even than the horrible Dolph Lundgren movie in the 90's.

I understand needing to bring in new veiwership, but the creators should understand what made the properties that they adapt popular in the first place and not mess with it. I've never understood why people will aquire a property to adapt, and then ignore their source material. It has never made sense to me.

I do realize that comics and TV/movies are different mediums, and that what may work for one may not work for another, and that any adaptation is going to re-work the material in some ways, but adaptations that work are the ones strongly recall their source material and not go off the deep-end "Hollywood-izing" them.

What pissed me off was.. "The police suck. The law law sucks. It's too slow and congealed. Now if I was to beat people I think might be law breakers to death, no one will mind as long as I'm dressed like a whore, and children are playing with my doll that dresses like a whore, but in no way is that doll to have triple E whore tits, it has to have my compelling double d tits, I can get away with murder. That's the really important thing that my tits are not ridiculous in effigy rather than my bodycount reported on the 6 o'clock news."
Guy, that is quite possibly the longest paragraph that I've ever seen you write.:lol:
 
But they shouldn't alienate their "core" either, because they are the ones who spread positive or negative word of mouth.

Well, that didn't seem to hurt Smallville or Ron Moore's Battlestar Galactica. Leaving the core unsatisfied can hurt your project if it isn't strong enough otherwise, but if it has enough audience appeal on its own merit, it may not need the support of the core fanbase in order to succeed. Either it'll be popular enough without the core fanbase that it will still succeed, or it'll eventually win over most of the core fanbase despite its changes. So it's not an absolute rule. (And then you get something like the Green Lantern film which is so fixated on pandering to the core that it forgets to tell a good story in its own right.)

In this case, lack of fidelity to the original seems to be just part of the pilot's problems. After all, the network execs who declined to pick it up weren't judging it on the basis of fidelity to the comics, but on the basis of whether they thought it would be a successful and popular TV show. And clearly they didn't.


For example, the new "Punisher" pilot that FOX is producing. I have several friends who enjoy super-hero movies and TV shows, who don't buy comics, who are going to pass on it simply because I told them that I was passing on it. I told them that it didn't sound like they were being faithful to the source material (which is always an issue with me) and that it sounded like "Punisher-in-name-only", more so even than the horrible Dolph Lundgren movie in the 90's.

On the other hand, the Mark Valley Human Target series did fairly well despite having absolutely nothing in common with the original comic aside from the title and the main character's name. But then, Human Target was never a hugely popular comics series, so it's not a great example.


I've never understood why people will aquire a property to adapt, and then ignore their source material. It has never made sense to me.

It's because movie/TV executives aren't approaching it from the perspective of the core material. Their job is to generate movies/TV shows. They need to get ideas from somewhere, so they look for things that might be source material for movies/shows and buy it. It's just raw material to them.

Keep in mind that any concept acquired by a movie or TV studio, whether it's an adaptation or a wholly original script/series, is going to go through an extensive process of alteration and revision before it ends up on a screen. The difference is that when it's an adaptation, we can see the beginning of that process as well as the end and recognize how much it's changed, whereas with original concepts, we usually don't see the starting pitch and don't appreciate how much it's been transformed in the course of the development process. So it seems to us that adaptations are somehow atypically subject to alteration, but really they're treated the same way that original concepts are treated. There are lots of different producers and executives who can all demand changes based on their own preferences and expectations, or changes can be made based on focus group studies, or a certain producer or actor may have some approach in mind that they've always wanted to do and they choose to do it with this project, or whatever.


I do realize that comics and TV/movies are different mediums, and that what may work for one may not work for another, and that any adaptation is going to re-work the material in some ways, but adaptations that work are the ones strongly recall their source material and not go off the deep-end "Hollywood-izing" them.

Sometimes, but not always. Certainly the Marvel Cinematic Universe films have succeeded by taking a faithful approach, and the Raimi Spider-Man films and the Nolan Batman films are largely faithful to the essence of their characters even though they take certain liberties. But on the other hand, the X-Men film franchise has taken immense liberties with the characters and continuity, throwing out standard histories and relationships and characterizations all over the place, but it's still generated three very popular movies out of five. And again I'll mention Smallville, whose whole initial purpose was to take the basic story of Superman and divorce it as completely as possible from its comic-book roots (though that obviously changed in later seasons, and the ratings were lower then).

You just can't make blanket generalizations about what works and what doesn't. If you could, if it were that simple, then nobody would ever make an unsuccessful movie or show. Sometimes you can discern general patterns, but the variables are complex enough that there are always exceptions. Ultimately whether something is good (or at least tickles some popular fancy well enough to draw in the audience) is a more important determinant than whether it's faithful to some particular ideal or formula.

Certainly something more faithful to the comics' Wonder Woman -- whatever that means, since she's been so many different things in the comics -- would probably have been better than this. But it's just as possible that a different producer could've come up with an equally revisionist take that would've actually been good. Just because this particular revisionist take wasn't enjoyable, that doesn't mean revisionism can never work.
 
What are people brining up Smallville? Yeah, it went on for 10 season but it wasn't a good show. It was a Elseworlds tale about Clark Kent who doesn't become Superman until much later in his life.

It had its fans certainly, but reviews weren't that great. Fans even mocked the bad writing most of the time.

Human Target wasn't that sucessful. It got canned at the end of season 2.
 
I watched the pilot last spring and was non-plussed by most of it. Easily the best part of it was Elizabeth Hurley, but even what she had to do was mostly by the numbers and nothing really new or spectacular.

The whole wardrobe "controversy" that the WW fandom made such a stink about was adequately addressed for my sensibilities in the pilot, but the story was atrociously bad.
 
What are people brining up Smallville? Yeah, it went on for 10 season but it wasn't a good show. It was a Elseworlds tale about Clark Kent who doesn't become Superman until much later in his life.

It had its fans certainly, but reviews weren't that great. Fans even mocked the bad writing most of the time.

Like I said, a show can succeed because it's good or because it appeals to a popular fancy. Smallville was about taking the Superman origin story and reinventing it as a WB teen drama, basically turning it into Dawson's Creek. The idea was to take a story that was considered to be appealing only to a niche audience and rework it into something that had more mainstream appeal (because this was before comic-book movies turned superheroes into a mainstream genre). And it actually worked moderately well for the first few seasons, drawing enough of a fanbase to keep it going even as its quality dipped and its format evolved closer and closer to the comics (because once superheroes became mainstream, Smallville embraced the aspects it had originally downplayed).

The WB tried to do the same sort of thing a couple of years later with its Tarzan series, reworking the fanciful tales of Tarzan into a more grounded New York-based romance/drama/procedural show, with Jane as a policewoman and John Clayton as a recently rescued young man who only once in the entire series referred to himself as "Tarzan." That one didn't work out so well, only lasting nine episodes, and it went through so many showrunners that pretty much each of the first four or five episodes changed course from the previous one. (Although, amazingly, those nine episodes actually work moderately well as a cohesive miniseries with a satisfactory conclusion.)


Human Target wasn't that sucessful. It got canned at the end of season 2.

Which is more successful than the first Human Target TV series (from Danny Bilson and Paul DeMeo of The Flash and The Rocketeer), which was far more faithful to the comics and which ran for a grand total of seven episodes. Given how many shows don't make it through their first season, getting two whole seasons counts as a modest success.
 
What pissed me off was.. "The police suck. The law law sucks. It's too slow and congealed. Now if I was to beat people I think might be law breakers to death, no one will mind as long as I'm dressed like a whore, and children are playing with my doll that dresses like a whore, but in no way is that doll to have triple E whore tits, it has to have my compelling double d tits, I can get away with murder. That's the really important thing that my tits are not ridiculous in effigy rather than my bodycount reported on the 6 o'clock news."

That's her mission statement.

What it comes down to is the same thing that has haunted Wonder Woman, and most female superheroes - they tend to be written by men for a male-fantasy genre, so generally they end up being some weird amalgam of men's fears and fantasies about powerful women. This very broad generality has had some very distinctive exceptions but you can pretty much count them on one hand - Buffy and Xena being the primary examples.

In short, Wonder Woman has always suffered from dressing to titilate boys while simultaneously trying to fit into a genre that's about using violence to solve complicated problems. If this particular story pinballed clumsily around violence and sexuality (whore-ishness to use your ever-so-subtle terminology), that's not really anything new for Wonder Woman, nor is it likely to disappear anytime soon from any other versions of her.
 
But they shouldn't alienate their "core" either, because they are the ones who spread positive or negative word of mouth.
In the case of Wonder Woman: no. Her core base of 20K fans are so batshit insane and utterly removed from reality that the appeasement of these "fans" are whats really holding back the character.

I think for her character, they really need to create a new model to approach her character. For Wonder Woman there are like two acceptable ways and nobody uses the first one since her creator died and the second way really has been done to death.
 
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What are people brining up Smallville? Yeah, it went on for 10 season but it wasn't a good show. It was a Elseworlds tale about Clark Kent who doesn't become Superman until much later in his life.
Smallville's Clark was around 24 or so when he became Superman. Lois & Clark had him becoming Superman at around 27 and the Christopher Reeve movie had him becoming Superman in his early 30s.
 
He aged slower in the movies.

The rocket crashed in 1937 and the movie was yet in 1977.

Chris was not playing 40.

mean while when super boy, supposedly 16 or 17 from the look of him, was running home fromm school, the train they passed had what must have been an 8 year old Lois on it.

Maybe they thought they were being clever because 1937 is when action comics number one hit the stands, and maybe they didn't think it through completely?

Who can tell?
 
Just because this particular revisionist take wasn't enjoyable, that doesn't mean revisionism can never work.

Agree 100%. Although it remains controversial, a good example is Moore's revisionist version of BSG which has enough awards and acclaim that it probably meets the "scientific definition" of good. ;)

The thing is revisionism still needs to be faithful to the heart of the source material. Discounting things that have such a strongly established canon and fanbase that revisionism is simply not a good idea (*cough*DavidYatesDoctorWhoMovie*cough*), a well-written revision can work. Good example is Kevin Smith's reimagining of The Six Million Dollar Man now being adapted as The Bionic Man comic book. Smith makes quite a few changes to the concept but keeps faithful to the core idea, so even though there's revisionism aplenty (the issue that came out today makes that obvious) as someone who's been a fan for some 37 years I still recognize it as being Martin Caidin's original work with updates. I think it would have made a half-decent movie or TV pilot. Contrast with the 2007 reimagining of The Bionic Woman that missed the plot completely on just about every level (even taking into account the fact they didn't have the rights to Caidin's original concepts).

Revisionism also needs to come from a direction of "we're working with something that's good already". Bionic Woman failed because - and there are interviews online with people involved with the show to back me up - there was an attitude that they were taking an old campy show and making it better. And it flopped. Smith revisioned SMDM from a position of being a huge fan wanting to do a love letter. I don't know what Kelley's personal attitude towards Wonder Woman is - whether the comic or the Lynda Carter series - but having now watched the complete pilot I did get a feeling that they were trying to "fix" something they thought was "broken". And so you end up with a WW acting completely out of character from what's been established, whether killing people in the manner depicted (italics intentional) to showing disturbing contempt for the law.

Alex
 
The thing is revisionism still needs to be faithful to the heart of the source material. Discounting things that have such a strongly established canon and fanbase that revisionism is simply not a good idea (*cough*DavidYatesDoctorWhoMovie*cough*), a well-written revision can work.

Seriously? You're saying Doctor Who is something for which revisionism is not a good idea? :wtf: I have to ask, are you familiar with the 48-year history of the series and all the multiple times it's been reinvented? The whole thing that makes Doctor Who work is revisionism, the way that it constantly changes actors and producers and storytelling focus and thereby stays fresh and vital and new. It went through many changes over its original 27 seasons, and the current revival series is hugely revisionist in itself, a profoundly new take on the whole thing, which is the whole reason it works.


I don't know what Kelley's personal attitude towards Wonder Woman is - whether the comic or the Lynda Carter series - but having now watched the complete pilot I did get a feeling that they were trying to "fix" something they thought was "broken". And so you end up with a WW acting completely out of character from what's been established, whether killing people in the manner depicted (italics intentional) to showing disturbing contempt for the law.

I haven't seen the pilot, but I'd agree, that is the impression I've gotten from what I've read and glimpsed of it -- that the pilot represented somebody's inaccurate and uncomplimentary set of assumptions about what superheroes are.
 
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