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Voyager's main problems

[No, the problem is using technobabble as filler and as a plot device...Look, if you love the show so unfailingly that you can't handle some constructive criticism, maybe this thread isn't for you. You seem to be handling things rather poorly and taking them personally.

Plot devices are never filler. Technobabble cannot be bad for being both. Explaining this really is an example of constructive criticism. Handling this by repeated nonsense about technobabble really is handling things (in this case, refuation,) poorly. Yes, complaints about technobabble pretty much always boil down to complaining about the big words, and yes, when the explanations are made, it can be felt as diminishing. This really is taking them personally.

The doltish notion of technobabble keeps you from articulating any valid criticisms. They may be lurking around in the brain somewhere but the idiot terminology buries any coherent thought in an incoherent idea tagged with a popular buzzword.
 
Yeah I've read about Janeway nixxing any Chakotay/Janeway relationship too and it was possibly due to how awkward it would be given they were an item for a while. I think it was pretty unprofessional of Mulgrew and plain idiotic of the writers to be following what the actress wanted instead of thinking what would have the most dramatic potential for the show.
This is a business aspect of which you said you had no interest in, so ....... :shrug:

Sigh...what on earth are you talking about now? You're exhausting.
Besides, this was clearly the creative aspect, you're just trying to be confrontational and argumentative as usual.
:rolleyes:
Clearly, only to the ignorant.
 
You're so unpleasant.
I say DS9 got better ratings than VOY and then you go on for ages about something and it turns out your point was that VOY made more money like that was even remotely related to my point. And now I talk about a creative decision and you stalkify me and quote me bringing up some dumb argument from earlier that you instigated.

If you can't be a rational, pleasant human being then kindly just stop even talking to me.
 
Plot devices are never filler. Technobabble cannot be bad for being both. Explaining this really is an example of constructive criticism. Handling this by repeated nonsense about technobabble really is handling things (in this case, refuation,) poorly. Yes, complaints about technobabble pretty much always boil down to complaining about the big words, and yes, when the explanations are made, it can be felt as diminishing. This really is taking them personally.

You know, having a discussion like you is akin to banging one's head against the wall. It accomplishes nothing but making one's head hurt. Once again, you are saying that complaining about technobabble is somehow invalid and means one has a fear of "big words." And once again, you are wrong. Throwing together a bunch of scientific-sounding words that, when dissected, usually make absolutely no logical or scientific sense is not a good idea for any show. An exposition dump in the dialogue is bad enough, but when such a dump consists of highly "technical" (and sometimes made-up terms) that tell the audience nothing ... this is a waste of everyone's time. And I've come to see that the same can be said for attempting to have any kind of rational, respectful discussion with you, stj.

So moving on to more productive discussion, I put a question to the rest of you ... if you could change one thing about Voyager, what would it be?
 
Plot devices are never filler. Technobabble cannot be bad for being both. Explaining this really is an example of constructive criticism. Handling this by repeated nonsense about technobabble really is handling things (in this case, refuation,) poorly. Yes, complaints about technobabble pretty much always boil down to complaining about the big words, and yes, when the explanations are made, it can be felt as diminishing. This really is taking them personally.
You know, having a discussion like you is akin to banging one's head against the wall. It accomplishes nothing but making one's head hurt. Once again, you are saying that complaining about technobabble is somehow invalid and means one has a fear of "big words." And once again, you are wrong. Throwing together a bunch of scientific-sounding words that, when dissected, usually make absolutely no logical or scientific sense is not a good idea for any show. An exposition dump in the dialogue is bad enough, but when such a dump consists of highly "technical" (and sometimes made-up terms) that tell the audience nothing ... this is a waste of everyone's time. And I've come to see that the same can be said for attempting to have any kind of rational, respectful discussion with you, stj.

So moving on to more productive discussion, I put a question to the rest of you ... if you could change one thing about Voyager, what would it be?
Easy, make the villains more violent.
Show the Kazon killing crewmen.
Show the Kazon in a gang war.
Show the Hirogen eating people.
Have the Borg take some crewmen and NOT be saved.
Show the effect of death and loss on the crew.
If the DQ is supposed to be more hostile, show it!
I don't care if the ship doesn't have damage as long the emotional effects of the crew are felt.
 
Once again, you are saying that complaining about technobabble is somehow invalid and means one has a fear of "big words." And once again, you are wrong.

Of course complaining about "technobabble" is invalid. It's not "somehow" invalid, it's invalid because the term has no meaning and everyone, like you, equivocates, switching arbitrarily from one meaning to another to put an end to all rational discussion. Neither you nor your friends can respond to this charge because it's true.

Since you refuse to explain what you personally mean, the commonest meaning as used, big words, is the default understanding. Since the generous belief that this is all caused by geniune self-misunderstanding is so vehemently denied, I will of course assume in the future that everyone babbling about technobabble is merely displaying petty deceit, astonishing arrogance and a shabby malice (over a TV show you didn't like!:wtf:)

Throwing together a bunch of scientific-sounding words that, when dissected, usually make absolutely no logical or scientific sense is not a good idea for any show. An exposition dump in the dialogue is bad enough, but when such a dump consists of highly "technical" (and sometimes made-up terms) that tell the audience nothing ... this is a waste of everyone's time.

By the same token, putting in a bunch of scientific-looking props and FX that, when dissected, usually make no logical or scientific sense is not a good idea either. Or putting in any societies that don't make sense. Or putting in astonishing character "developments" like discovering you were born to be the Emissary or you're really one of the rulers in a far off realm instead of just a foundling are not good ideas either. Nonsense in every other form is perfectly acceptable. Why single out the words, and only the words, except it's the big words you don't like? I really am open to other answers but no one has even attempted, ever, to give me one! The meaningless term technobabble is apparently meant to end rational discussion.

Is an infodump really such an offense? Really, truly? Isn't the effort to make sense of the plot such a bad thing that it's better to leave holes in the plot just to avoid the offensive language? The notion that it's all just technobabble is why you get plots that don't withstand logical analysis. And that's why rejecting the nonsensical idea of "technobabble" really is constructive criticism.

And I've come to see that the same can be said for attempting to have any kind of rational, respectful discussion with you, stj.

Spouting nonsense is not rational. And refusing to clarify or justify, arrogantly dismissing refuation isn't respectful.

So moving on to more productive discussion, I put a question to the rest of you ... if you could change one thing about Voyager, what would it be?

End all the nonsense about hardship and the rigors of survival. As long as the ship works, they have replicators, and they may be in peril of their lives, but they aren't going to be uncomfortable. A starship with big holes in it isn't going to fly. As long as it has antimatter. And the Trek shows have never bothered to say where that comes from so far as I know.

Openly acknowledge that everyone on the crew has a reasonable chance of living to see home, granting the huge exception of getting killed when the ship breaks. A human lifespan of about one hundred thirty years means everyone on board is either choosing between permanent exile in the DQ or longterm exile on board Voyager.

Which would permit getting rid of the BS about the Maquis. If you must have crew arguing, make the other part Romulans or something, as Anwar has suggested.

Take the makeup off Torres. Give Paris a real personality.
 
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Right, that's why Braga's ideas (before they were shot down by UPN) were all things that most folks on this board would've loved (no replicators/holodecks, year long "Year of Hell", etc). Because he wanted to marginalize the show, naturally...

Did he or did he not do the studio's bidding (as formulated and transmitted by Berman)?

Braga never showed the stones that Behr and Moore did in doing end runs around Berman's edicts.

Behr and Moore weren't on a network show, they actually COULD get around edicts. Not so with the VOY staff.

Which doesn't change my point that Berman and Braga (as functionaries of the studio) were the biggest source of the show's problems.
 
This is a business aspect of which you said you had no interest in, so ....... :shrug:

Sigh...what on earth are you talking about now? You're exhausting.
Besides, this was clearly the creative aspect, you're just trying to be confrontational and argumentative as usual.
:rolleyes:
Clearly, only to the ignorant.

Okay guys, put each other on 'Ignore' if you annoy each other but let's leave the flaming out of the thread. Thank you.
 
Did he or did he not do the studio's bidding (as formulated and transmitted by Berman)?

Braga never showed the stones that Behr and Moore did in doing end runs around Berman's edicts.

Behr and Moore weren't on a network show, they actually COULD get around edicts. Not so with the VOY staff.

Which doesn't change my point that Berman and Braga (as functionaries of the studio) were the biggest source of the show's problems.

UPN itself was the source of the problems.
 
Did he or did he not do the studio's bidding (as formulated and transmitted by Berman)?

Braga never showed the stones that Behr and Moore did in doing end runs around Berman's edicts.

Behr and Moore weren't on a network show, they actually COULD get around edicts. Not so with the VOY staff.

Which doesn't change my point that Berman and Braga (as functionaries of the studio) were the biggest source of the show's problems.
No, I think blame can be spread evenly over many involved in the project, from those behind the camera, to those in front and everyone in between. Berman did co-create both TNG & DS9, finished TNG and launched the films successfully. He knew when to step back to allow DS9 to grow creatively. So that tells me he was very capable in his job. I think going into Voyager, his ideas came more from trying to honor what he learned what Trek meant to Roddenberry rather than taking what he learned and altering Trek to fit the new trending audience. I don't think he intentionally was trying to disappoint fans but rather stay true to what Gene taught him.(The good guys never getting hurt and every alien species is just misunderstood are Roddenberry concepts) I can see where he tried and failed but I still give him credit and cut him slack for the effort. He did try to make Voyager a better show than it turned out. That IMO should count for something.
 
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