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...Although Star Trek also features weapons known as "phase disruptors" (see DS9 "Return to Grace"). The very same weapons are called "disruptors" elsewhere, suggesting the terminology is an intriguing mess of nested definitions - just like terminology on today's firearms is.
Assuming ENT is TNG's past, then one of NX-01's phase cannon started off at 500 GJ each but by the end of the episode it was firing at 10x that or 5,000 GJ. The burst lasted approx 2.5s for 2,000 GW firings.
"A typical large phaser array aboard the the USS Enterprise, such as the upper dorsal array on the Saucer Module, consists of two hundred emitter segments in a dense linear arrangement..." page 123
I didn't think this was what you were referring to, but as I read it last week it doesn't seem to refer to any SPECIFIC phaser array (otherwise it would be implying that the short strips and the long strips have the same number of emitters, right?).
No it doesn't (which is what I was looking for). It doesn't "point" to anything at all, it's a descriptive paragraph in a broader context describing the phaser system in general.
What other "upper dorsal array on the saucer module" is there? It doesn't indicate how many emitters are in the short arrays.
In chemical energy, yes, but that would also translate to over a thousand times the kinetic energy of a 16-inch battleship gun. Or, in more appropriate terms, it's the equivalent of getting hit by a pickup truck traveling at 10 km/s.
Now it's not purely kinetic energy--shields and deflectors can handle that--but antiprotons react to shields in strange ways (the Doomsday Machine, for example, and the antiproton beams used to penetrate cloaking devices) so in addition to being quite powerful in and of itself, it's also in a form of energy that would do considerable damage to the shields. Phasers and disruptors, I think, also have various effects against shields depending on how they're adjusted, so even a few direct hits at 5GW would chip away at your shield reserves pretty quickly.
OTOH, a 5GW phaser blast would probably incinerate a fair-sized chunk of the target vessel without its shields up.
The problem with low GW phasers is the 10,000x spread to the photon torpedo as described in the TM. Considering both weapons blow ships and asteroids up in similar manner the two weapons should output at the same level.
Why? I just explained to you that it isn't the energy yield that's important as much as the TYPE of energy involved. Phasers are particle beam weapons that channel their energy in rapid nadion pulses that can have very specific effects on shields and material; matter and antimatter react to produce mainly gamma rays and neutrinos.
It's similar to the way a 5MW laser weapon is significantly less powerful than a 5MW railgun. It's not the output that counts as much as its ability to transfer that output into a target.
That's why the "A Matter of Time" over 60GW steps in precision make far more sense than the max 1GW phaser array of the TM, IMHO.
Trouble is, the phasers don' appear to be CAUSING 60GW with of damage when they're fired. More to the point, 60GW vs. 6 or 10 is just an extra drop in the bucket compared to the yield of photon torpedoes, which are still two orders of magnitude higher.
OTOH, photon torpedoes aren't that visually impressive either...
No there wouldn't. The translator would render it as a proper noun for whatever the Cardassians call it (as when Gul Dukat mentions "Galor Class phaser banks", and DS9 is regularly translated as "Terok Nor" when Cardassians talk about it). The translator is obviously smart enough to know what they're talking about and describe the closest literal translation to avoid that confusion.
In other words, if Gul Evek were talking about Cardassian phasers, the translator would have either used the Cardassian designation for it or it would have slipped the word "Cardassian Type-8" into the translation.
Which still doesn't answer the question: why would Gul Evek accuse starfleet of giving CARDASSIAN phasers on the Maquis? That makes sense to you?
It doesn't matter if the 16" gun will be back or not. It's one of the largest naval guns that was in service (well there are the 18" from the Yamato...) The big phaser array on the E-D is the big gun.
No, the big phaser array on the All Good Things refit is the big gun. It's approximately equivalent to the BFGs on the Vorcha and Negh'Var classes but considerably more powerful.
And also a big step up from the phaser arrays.
A couple of GJ TOTAL is still less than the being off by 60 GW in "A Matter of Time".
Which is why "A matter of time" was probably referring to the reaction in the atmosphere, not the phaser output.
The assumption you want to make is that the TM is correct for a GW output for the largest phaser array on the E-D. Clearly there is no support for that based on "A Matter of Time", an actual episode. Come to think of it, there is no support for low efficiency phasers, based on "In the Mind's Eye". So again, 4GW reactor powering a "small phaser bank" can only mean something above 1GW...
It can mean quite a few other things, depending on the circumstances. Again, the problem is YOU DON'T KNOW the circumstances and you can only guess.
The games that I've played (including Encounters) are designed to be balanced and fun-to-play. If they were simulated to producer intent the Galaxy-class phasers would have zero effect on the Jem'hedar bug ships for half the game and we wouldn't have to run around picking up Power Ups to get infinite phaser or shielding. Encounters is not a wargame simulation or anything approaching that level of detail or accuracy to the series.
I didn't think this was what you were referring to, but as I read it last week it doesn't seem to refer to any SPECIFIC phaser array (otherwise it would be implying that the short strips and the long strips have the same number of emitters, right?).
No it doesn't (which is what I was looking for). It doesn't "point" to anything at all, it's a descriptive paragraph in a broader context describing the phaser system in general.
You either don't have the TM or you're ignoring the graphic on the bottom of P123 and top of P124 pointing to the Upper Dorsal Array. All the "small arrays" that you're alluding to are on the "Battle Section" and labeled as such.
"A typical large phaser array aboard the the USS Enterprise, such as the upper dorsal array on the Saucer Module, consists of two hundred emitter segments in a dense linear arrangement..." page 123
It's similar to the way a 5MW laser weapon is significantly less powerful than a 5MW railgun. It's not the output that counts as much as its ability to transfer that output into a target.
The only times I've heard of a railgun given a power rating is the amount of juice used to accelerate the round. That doesn't tell us anything about the KE of the round upon impact since we know nothing of the round or the speed of it. To compare that with a 5MW laser weapon is a bit confusing, don't you think?
Trouble is, the phasers don' appear to be CAUSING 60GW with of damage when they're fired. More to the point, 60GW vs. 6 or 10 is just an extra drop in the bucket compared to the yield of photon torpedoes, which are still two orders of magnitude higher.
In TNG times, they took away the massive flash and explosion that went with the visual fx and the only thing we are left with is dialogue describing the damage. Kinda hard to say either way other. Do you have any specific examples against specific targets?
Assuming ENT is TNG's past, then one of NX-01's phase cannon started off at 500 GJ each but by the end of the episode it was firing at 10x that or 5,000 GJ. The burst lasted approx 2.5s for 2,000 GW firings.
^ And nearly destroyed the ship in the process. Which might explain why the rating was later given at 80GJ several episodes later.
OTOH, Reed never describes what "500GJ" or "80GJ" means in this context. He never gives the "per second" qualifier that would allow a translation into watts. An 80GJ capacity would allow for an output of 2 to 5 GW for 20 to 40 seconds before they have to stop and recharge. At the original 500GJ (which blew out half the plasma relays on the ship) that would be an output of around 50 to 60GW, even leaving aside the usual efficiency losses.
The thought that suddenly strikes me is that size and power may be related at all. The phaser arrays on Voyager's shuttles, for example, aren't much bigger than phaser rifles (actually, slightly smaller) but are significantly more powerful.
No there wouldn't. The translator would render it as a proper noun for whatever the Cardassians call it (as when Gul Dukat mentions "Galor Class phaser banks", and DS9 is regularly translated as "Terok Nor" when Cardassians talk about it). The translator is obviously smart enough to know what they're talking about and describe the closest literal translation to avoid that confusion.
In other words, if Gul Evek were talking about Cardassian phasers, the translator would have either used the Cardassian designation for it or it would have slipped the word "Cardassian Type-8" into the translation.
Which still doesn't answer the question: why would Gul Evek accuse starfleet of giving CARDASSIAN phasers on the Maquis? That makes sense to you?
No, that doesn't make sense. Why would Gul Evek's translation deliberately include "Cardassian" when he's the one speaking. If Sisko said, "They are armed with Type-6 phasers" we know it's from his POV and relative to Federation weapons. If Gul Evek said, "They are armed with Type-6 phasers" we know it's from his POV and relative to Cardassians weapons. The only time we get to easily say it's relative to another race if it is explicitly added in the translation.
No, the big phaser array on the All Good Things refit is the big gun. It's approximately equivalent to the BFGs on the Vorcha and Negh'Var classes but considerably more powerful.
The games that I've played (including Encounters) are designed to be balanced and fun-to-play. If they were simulated to producer intent the Galaxy-class phasers would have zero effect on the Jem'hedar bug ships for half the game and we wouldn't have to run around picking up Power Ups to get infinite phaser or shielding. Encounters is not a wargame simulation or anything approaching that level of detail or accuracy to the series.
Your point is that you want to use an inaccurate tool to come to a conclusion about how things should work and ignore the evidence as aired. That doesn't help your argument.
Assuming ENT is TNG's past, then one of NX-01's phase cannon started off at 500 GJ each but by the end of the episode it was firing at 10x that or 5,000 GJ. The burst lasted approx 2.5s for 2,000 GW firings.
^ And nearly destroyed the ship in the process. Which might explain why the rating was later given at 80GJ several episodes later.
OTOH, Reed never describes what "500GJ" or "80GJ" means in this context. He never gives the "per second" qualifier that would allow a translation into watts. An 80GJ capacity would allow for an output of 2 to 5 GW for 20 to 40 seconds before they have to stop and recharge. At the original 500GJ (which blew out half the plasma relays on the ship) that would be an output of around 50 to 60GW, even leaving aside the usual efficiency losses.
The thought that suddenly strikes me is that size and power may be related at all. The phaser arrays on Voyager's shuttles, for example, aren't much bigger than phaser rifles (actually, slightly smaller) but are significantly more powerful.
From the episode "Silent Enemy" each time the phase cannons were fired was for no more than ~2.5 seconds. They were firing at maximum power and had to do the 10x overload trick to gain the upperhand in the end. You can do the math on the GW.
From "Silent Enemy":
REED: This, ladies and gentlemen is a phase-modulated energy weapon. It's rated for a maximum power output of five hundred gigajoules. Enterprise was designed to carry three of them. We have one, and it's only a prototype"
In "Cogenitor", Reed describes 80 GJ emitter to the alien visitor. I don't know how accurate he was to the visiting alien.
In "Regeneration", the phase-pistols are modified to fire 10 MJ shots.
It IS under-powered for a kill shot (and photon torpedoes RARELY deliver kill shots).
The only times I've heard of a railgun given a power rating is the amount of juice used to accelerate the round. That doesn't tell us anything about the KE of the round upon impact since we know nothing of the round or the speed of it.
That has to do with the efficiency of the system and not much else. Strictly speaking, if you put 5MJ of energy into a railgun at 30% efficiency (NSWC's prototype, for example) your muzzle energy will be about 1.5MJ. That will tell you the speed of the projectile IF you know the mass, and you can calculate its kinetic energy at the target if you know its flight profile (and therefore drag force as it flies).
To compare that with a 5MW laser weapon is a bit confusing, don't you think?
No, because lasers ALSO have a known efficiency rating and can only output so much energy. Significantly, the laser's effect on the target depends on the frequency of the beam and the target's composition; only a portion of the beam will be absorbed and some of that energy will be dissipated away as heat.
What examples are there that don't appear to be 60GW or more? In "A Matter of Time" they ignited the atmosphere.
In TNG times, they took away the massive flash and explosion that went with the visual fx and the only thing we are left with is dialogue describing the damage. Kinda hard to say either way other. Do you have any specific examples against specific targets?[/QUOTE]
Voyager firing three photon torpedoes at a Kazon raider sixty feet from Janeway's head.
Also, Enterprise firing photon torpedoes at "God" in TFF.
To avoid giving Picard the mistaken impression that he's talking about Federation weapons and therefore accusing him of arming terrorists?
If Sisko said, "They are armed with Type-6 phasers" we know it's from his POV and relative to Federation weapons. If Gul Evek said, "They are armed with Type-6 phasers" we know it's from his POV and relative to Cardassians weapons.
That has pretty much never happened in the history of Star Trek. When Worf or Dax list something as being "500 kilometers" away, we know they're referring to metric kilometers, not Klingon kilometers, not Trill kilometers. When Worf ISN'T describing kilometers, the translator leaves it as "Kelicams."
Same for various alien of the weak. When Gul Jasad tells Kira "You have one hour!" he's referring to a human-standard unit of sixty minutes. If he was referring to a Cardassian time unit it would say "You have one cycle" or something like that.
It's the BFG. Not the Big Gun. The phaser arrays on the E-D are the Big Guns.
Assuming ENT is TNG's past, then one of NX-01's phase cannon started off at 500 GJ each but by the end of the episode it was firing at 10x that or 5,000 GJ. The burst lasted approx 2.5s for 2,000 GW firings.
^ And nearly destroyed the ship in the process. Which might explain why the rating was later given at 80GJ several episodes later.
OTOH, Reed never describes what "500GJ" or "80GJ" means in this context. He never gives the "per second" qualifier that would allow a translation into watts. An 80GJ capacity would allow for an output of 2 to 5 GW for 20 to 40 seconds before they have to stop and recharge. At the original 500GJ (which blew out half the plasma relays on the ship) that would be an output of around 50 to 60GW, even leaving aside the usual efficiency losses.
The thought that suddenly strikes me is that size and power may be related at all. The phaser arrays on Voyager's shuttles, for example, aren't much bigger than phaser rifles (actually, slightly smaller) but are significantly more powerful.
From the episode "Silent Enemy" each time the phase cannons were fired was for no more than ~2.5 seconds. They were firing at maximum power and had to do the 10x overload trick to gain the upperhand in the end. You can do the math on the GW.
No I can't, because "joule" is not a unit of power. Reed either mispoke and meant to say "gigawatt" or he's saying the phase cannons can only output 500GJ of destructive power in any one period.
In "Regeneration", the phase-pistols are modified to fire 10 MJ shots.
Which, again, doesn't tell you anything since a megajoule is not a unit of power. Is it megajoules per second, or megajoules per CHARGE? Or is he referring to something else entirely, like the amount of energy that would be absorbed by a reference target in a standard 3-second burst?
Gul Evek is talking of Cardassian-equivalent weapons in his POV but if we expand the dialogue for context, he's speaking of illegal weapons which could be any manufacturer, Ferengi, Romulan, Breen, etc in addition to Federation. Gul Evek's dialogue doesn't include anything specific to "Federation" technology.
GUL EVEK: The fact that my ship was attacked suggests that your efforts have met with limited success. They came at us with photon torpedoes and type eight phasers. Tell me, Captain, how do you suppose that a group of civilians acquired such weaponry?
PICARD: I can assure you it was not through official channels.
If Sisko said, "They are armed with Type-6 phasers" we know it's from his POV and relative to Federation weapons. If Gul Evek said, "They are armed with Type-6 phasers" we know it's from his POV and relative to Cardassians weapons.
That has pretty much never happened in the history of Star Trek. When Worf or Dax list something as being "500 kilometers" away, we know they're referring to metric kilometers, not Klingon kilometers, not Trill kilometers. When Worf ISN'T describing kilometers, the translator leaves it as "Kelicams."
Worf knows english, he was raised with humans. Why would Worf's dialogue translate to Kelicams unless he was speaking to Klingons or if were just exclusively Klingons speaking to each other?
Same for various alien of the weak. When Gul Jasad tells Kira "You have one hour!" he's referring to a human-standard unit of sixty minutes. If he was referring to a Cardassian time unit it would say "You have one cycle" or something like that.
So you're saying in TOS time, they used the BIG phasers equivalent to 16" guns and in TNG's time they downgraded to the equivalent of 5" guns for their array phasers?
And then they realized how wrong they were and mounted 4x 16" gun equivalents on the front of the Defiant-class ships
From the episode "Silent Enemy" each time the phase cannons were fired was for no more than ~2.5 seconds. They were firing at maximum power and had to do the 10x overload trick to gain the upperhand in the end. You can do the math on the GW.
No I can't, because "joule" is not a unit of power. Reed either mispoke and meant to say "gigawatt" or he's saying the phase cannons can only output 500GJ of destructive power in any one period.
They fired for approx 2.5s in all cases for that episode. The dialogue is suggesting that they are delivering 500GJ each 2.5s shot at non-overloaded power.
REED: Even if these cannons had been installed at Jupiter Station, they wouldn't be any more effective than they are now.
ARCHER: What about yesterday? I saw you blow something up the size of Mount McKinley.
REED: Yes sir, but that was due to an overload.
Which, again, doesn't tell you anything since a megajoule is not a unit of power. Is it megajoules per second, or megajoules per CHARGE? Or is he referring to something else entirely, like the amount of energy that would be absorbed by a reference target in a standard 3-second burst?
Sigh, I guess you don't have the book as you'd see the "Saucer Module dorsal array" labeled on the graphic. Do you want me to scan and upload it for you?
"A typical large phaser array aboard the the USS Enterprise, such as the upper dorsal array on the Saucer Module,consists of two hundred emitter segments in a dense linear arrangement..." page 123
Now if you want to play word games, then the TM is either riddled with mistakes like this and shouldn't be trusted or the writers like redundancy in their wording
Have you indexed every firing to come up with this statement? Speaking of photon torpedoes and kill shots, they seem to work rather well against the Klingon fleet in "Way of the Warrior".
That has to do with the efficiency of the system and not much else. Strictly speaking, if you put 5MJ of energy into a railgun at 30% efficiency (NSWC's prototype, for example) your muzzle energy will be about 1.5MJ. That will tell you the speed of the projectile IF you know the mass, and you can calculate its kinetic energy at the target if you know its flight profile (and therefore drag force as it flies).
Since you don't give any data on the projectile, the 5MJ is kinda useless. Unlike knowing a 4GW reactor can power a small phaser bank and that we've only heard of Federation phaser efficiency in the 80-90% range. We don't need to account for a projectile for the phaser bank.
No he's not, he's SPECIFICALLY referring to a pair of military-grade weapons that civilians are unlikely to obtain from anyone other than Starfleet. Otherwise, his last question to picard--though rhetorical--would make no sense and the exchange is better read
Evek: "Tell me Picard, ho do you suppose a group of civilians acquired such weaponry?"
Picard: "Ordered them on eBay, perhaps?"
Worf knows english, he was raised with humans. Why would Worf's dialogue translate to Kelicams unless he was speaking to Klingons or if were just exclusively Klingons speaking to each other?
Because keilicams and kilometers are two different things, same as a kilometer and a mile. It doesn't matter WHO he's speaking to; if he doesn't mean Kelicams, the translator won't give the equivalent unit in kilometers.
Don't know. They always use Federation units when speaking to humans and Bajorans (thoughtful of them, no?).
So you're saying in TOS time, they used the BIG phasers equivalent to 16" guns and in TNG's time they downgraded to the equivalent of 5" guns for their array phasers?
No, I'm saying that in TOS times they used big phasers equivalent to the 5"/38-caliber dual-purpose gun, and in TNG they use phasers equivalent to a highly advanced 5"/54-caliber dual-purpose gun.
If you want to make the analogy perfect, though, it's probably more like the Galaxy class being equipped with a bank of 57mm guns in a metalstorm array; it's not that the phaser bank is more powerful in and of itself, it's that it has a huge number of smaller emitters that can all fire at once at a single target.
The way they're used in TNG, this means all of those emitters concentrating their energy at a single point, greatly increasing efficiency and cooling requirements. In the TOS/TMP era, though, firing off a phaser array would probably look more like an antimatter spread from BOBW. That or something like this with far higher density.
Because with an inaccurate tool you have some idea where your margin for error is and you can accommodate that into your estimate.
Which is still a far cry from saying "Despite my complete lack of empirical data on the subject, I know I'm right."
They fired for approx 2.5s in all cases for that episode. The dialogue is suggesting that they are delivering 500GJ each 2.5s shot at non-overloaded power.
The dialog suggests nothing of the kind, as nowhere is it mentioned over what period of time those 500GJ are delivered. For all we know, 500GJ is the lifetime limit for the phaser before it has to be stripped down and rebuilt.
I see it just fine. Now explain to me why you think that is a "typical" array for the ship despite the fact that of the other 9 phaser arrays there is only one of similar length in the design?
Now if you want to play word games, then the TM is either riddled with mistakes like this
Yes it is, which is why we consider the tech manual a valid source unless contradicted by other information.
Have you indexed every firing to come up with this statement? Speaking of photon torpedoes and kill shots, they seem to work rather well against the Klingon fleet in "Way of the Warrior".
Way of the Warrior seems to be the exception that proves the rule considering we're seeing an entire Klingon fleet trying to attack DS9 without any of them bothering to raise their shields.
Unlike knowing a 4GW reactor can power a small phaser bank and that we've only heard of Federation phaser efficiency in the 80-90% range. We don't need to account for a projectile for the phaser bank.
Nobody's saying you do. It's a fact that input power and output power are not the same thing and you do not know enough about phasers to claim to know the relationship between them.
Doesn't much matter. You asked for evidence and there it is.
There are probably all kinds of explanations for some of the weird things that go on in Star Trek, but it would be more productive for this conversation if you would make up your mind whether or not you are interested in making sense of what we see or just trying to prove a point.
No he's not, he's SPECIFICALLY referring to a pair of military-grade weapons that civilians are unlikely to obtain from anyone other than Starfleet. Otherwise, his last question to picard--though rhetorical--would make no sense and the exchange is better read
Evek: "Tell me Picard, ho do you suppose a group of civilians acquired such weaponry?" Picard: "Ordered them on eBay, perhaps?"
How many people Other than Starfleet make phaser rifles?
LAFORGE: Then it's definitely not Starfleet issue and there can't be that many systems that use the terahertz feeds.
DATA: Three hundred twenty seven, to our knowledge. We can probably achieve an exact match with a random computer search. It will take approximately three hours.
-"The Mind's Eye"
Because keilicams and kilometers are two different things, same as a kilometer and a mile. It doesn't matter WHO he's speaking to; if he doesn't mean Kelicams, the translator won't give the equivalent unit in kilometers.
No, I'm saying that in TOS times they used big phasers equivalent to the 5"/38-caliber dual-purpose gun, and in TNG they use phasers equivalent to a highly advanced 5"/54-caliber dual-purpose gun.
So at no time did they ever employ the equivalent of a 16" gun? Okay, that's being silly. Why are you trying to limit it to 5" guns when we know that we've built bigger guns than that and used them in combat?
If you want to make the analogy perfect, though, it's probably more like the Galaxy class being equipped with a bank of 57mm guns in a metalstorm array; it's not that the phaser bank is more powerful in and of itself, it's that it has a huge number of smaller emitters that can all fire at once at a single target.
Then the perfect analogy would have the twin turret phaser banks be the big 16" guns that were retired The E-D's phasers certainly are not 200x more powerful than the TOS ship's phasers.
The problem again is that you don't know what your margin of error is. Until you can produce a catalog of every on-air combat and correlate that to Encounters to figure out where they got it right or wrong you're always going to be wrong and you won't know by how much. If you're really on about trying to simulate Star Trek combat, you need to find better tools and have better information on the subject. You currently do not have either one.
They fired for approx 2.5s in all cases for that episode. The dialogue is suggesting that they are delivering 500GJ each 2.5s shot at non-overloaded power.
The dialog suggests nothing of the kind, as nowhere is it mentioned over what period of time those 500GJ are delivered. For all we know, 500GJ is the lifetime limit for the phaser before it has to be stripped down and rebuilt.
Then I suggest you watch the episode. They say in dialogue what the phase cannon's "maximum power output" is. They fire the same cannons at full power and were forced to fire them overloaded at 10x. They compared the destruction level to blowing up "something the size of Mt McKinley". Each firing lasted approx 2.5s of screen time.
Why are you so resistant to the idea that Star Trek directed energy weapons power output is higher than what is written in the TNG TM?
I see it just fine. Now explain to me why you think that is a "typical" array for the ship despite the fact that of the other 9 phaser arrays there is only one of similar length in the design?
Way of the Warrior seems to be the exception that proves the rule considering we're seeing an entire Klingon fleet trying to attack DS9 without any of them bothering to raise their shields.
Nobody's saying you do. It's a fact that input power and output power are not the same thing and you do not know enough about phasers to claim to know the relationship between them.
An atmosphere that had a magic Trek particle tetrazine that only needed a certain amount of heated particles to ignite it. Which is different from the E-D's phasers firing at high power with only a 60GW margin of error.
There are probably all kinds of explanations for some of the weird things that go on in Star Trek, but it would be more productive for this conversation if you would make up your mind whether or not you are interested in making sense of what we see or just trying to prove a point.
Both. I'm interesting making sense of what we see in the context of Star Trek. Not filtered by a dubious TNG TM. And not basing combat on an arcade game that is not accurate to the series.
What are you interested in, making sense of what you see or just trying to prove a point?
Gul Evek didn't say "phaser rifles."
Gul Evek didn't say "large phasers."
Gul Evek said "Type-8 phasers."
He's referring to a specific type of phaser that the Federation is known to use.
Which is why Picard DIDN'T look at Gul Evek like "I dunno, why are you asking me?" He immediately recognized that they WERE Federation weapons, and however the Maquis got them, they didn't get them "through official channels," implying they were stolen or re-sold on the black market.
Gul Evek is indirectly accusing the Federation of arming terrorists and Picard is denying it. One way or the other, they're talking about Federation weaponry here.
So how do you know when the translator is running? When Worf is speaking to earthlings, why would it be translating?
Because Worf was raised by a couple of Russians with thick heavy accents, and yet he does NOT have an accent. Do you really think English is his first language?
Actually, it's possible that Worf never actually learned English and he went through his entire life with a universal translator.
Or the translator's closest Cardassian equivalent happens to be hours too.
At this point, you might as well claim that English is the official language of cardassia.
So at no time did they ever employ the equivalent of a 16" gun? Okay, that's being silly. Why are you trying to limit it to 5" guns when we know that we've built bigger guns than that and used them in combat?
I have a very solid idea what the margin for error is considering what we're trying to test. It's a very simple matter, really: how easy is it for one starship to hang in the phaser blind spot of another starship in a combat situation? That alone would be enough for a proof-of-concept test to prove whether or not it's at least feasible, and if you dispute something about the simulation in THAT context then we'll have something very specific to correct.
Not simulating it AT ALL means resorting only to your personal expertise in space combat and taking your word for it because you would know.
Then I suggest you watch the episode. They say in dialogue what the phase cannon's "maximum power output" is.
And they gave it in joules, which isn't a unit of power. Power and energy are not the same thing. Reed didn't specify whether he was talking about "Gigajoules per second" or "gigajoules per capacitor."
Nor did they state at what power level they were attempting to fire the phasers in the first place. FYI: an "overload" doesn't mean the power output increased, it means the LOAD increased on the power supply (far more than the power supply was designed to safely provide).
Why are you so resistant to the idea that Star Trek directed energy weapons power output is higher than what is written in the TNG TM?
Actually I'm trying to keep this more or less consistent with "The Survivors" and "Conundrum," the former showing where the Enterprise shrugs off blasts of around 40MW, the latter with a lysian destroyer having 1.1MJ output. That makes either of them less than a credible threat to the Enterprise, enough that Picard takes an easy approach to dealing with them. OTOH, in "The Battle Lines" a charge of around 900MW is enough to knock a runabout out of the sky with a single shot, and the larger 400GW will completely knock out your shields.
So I figure anything above 1GW or so will do some damage to your shields (on a full starship) 5 to 10 is considered highly impressive.
Gul Evek didn't say "phaser rifles."
Gul Evek didn't say "large phasers."
Gul Evek said "Type-8 phasers."
He's referring to a specific type of phaser that the Federation is known to use.
Which is why Picard DIDN'T look at Gul Evek like "I dunno, why are you asking me?" He immediately recognized that they WERE Federation weapons, and however the Maquis got them, they didn't get them "through official channels," implying they were stolen or re-sold on the black market.
Apparently alot of phasers look like Federation weapons. And if they were identified as "specific type of Federation phasers" we'd hear Gul Evek say it. Instead he's calling out that Starfleet isn't doing their job of preventing heavy weaponry from falling into Maquis hands. We know Cardassians also use phasers on their ships so again and without further detail in the translation, it's more likely to be from the Cardassian POV.
Because Worf was raised by a couple of Russians with thick heavy accents, and yet he does NOT have an accent. Do you really think English is his first language?
I have a very solid idea what the margin for error is considering what we're trying to test. It's a very simple matter, really: how easy is it for one starship to hang in the phaser blind spot of another starship in a combat situation? That alone would be enough for a proof-of-concept test to prove whether or not it's at least feasible, and if you dispute something about the simulation in THAT context then we'll have something very specific to correct.
And they gave it in joules, which isn't a unit of power. Power and energy are not the same thing. Reed didn't specify whether he was talking about "Gigajoules per second" or "gigajoules per capacitor."
Nor did they state at what power level they were attempting to fire the phasers in the first place. FYI: an "overload" doesn't mean the power output increased, it means the LOAD increased on the power supply (far more than the power supply was designed to safely provide).
In this case, the "overload" meant the power output increased.
TUCKER: What were you trying to do?
REED: Bypass the EPS grid.
TUCKER: Why?
REED: Well, we could draw power for the cannons directly from the impulse engines.
TUCKER: Are you trying to make this blow up in your face?
REED: The relays were rated to handle that much power.
...
REED: Check the cannons. Be careful down there. The blast yield was ten times what we expected.
ARCHER [OC]: What happened?
REED: Something overloaded the phase modulators.
TUCKER: The plasma recoil blew out relays across decks C and D.
...
ARCHER: Is that the best we can do, Lieutenant?!
REED: Even if these cannons had been installed at Jupiter Station, they wouldn't be any more effective than they are now.
ARCHER: What about yesterday? I saw you blow something up the size of Mount McKinley.
REED: Yes sir, but that was due to an overload.
Actually I'm trying to keep this more or less consistent with "The Survivors" and "Conundrum," the former showing where the Enterprise shrugs off blasts of around 40MW, the latter with a lysian destroyer having 1.1MJ output. That makes either of them less than a credible threat to the Enterprise, enough that Picard takes an easy approach to dealing with them.
Okay, one showed an adversary that was thought up by the Douwd. The Husnock ship's effectiveness was up to the whim of the Douwd but at 40MW the E-D shields held and at 400GW it destabilized the shields. Direct 400GW hits to the hull caused "thermal damage" but nothing visible AFAIK. The Lysian destroyer had a 2.1 MJ disruptor capacity and was no match for the E-D.
Well, the crew of the E-D still didn't seem that concerned even when being hit directly on the hull by 400GW bursts. The shields don't appear to be drained like the usual hits where they read off "down to 30%" but instead Worf is just unable to re-assemble the shields so it doesn't sound like a lack of shield power. OTOH, 400GW is a bit hard to decipher since it was three discrete pulses. The 3 pulse burst lasted approx 2s. So was that 800GJ of particle energy total? Or smaller blocks of energy. In either case, the battle was Douwd-controlled so I'm not sure how much weight I'd put into the battle.
WORF: Shields are down. Captain, they hit us with four hundred gigawatts of particle energy.
PICARD: Damage?
WORF: Superficial, but I'm having trouble reassembling the shields. [another hit] Shields down. There is thermal damage to the hull.
DATA: The warship is capable of striking us with far more powerful bursts.
WESLEY: They're manoeuvring to come between the Enterprise and Rana Four.
PICARD: Number One, we have been exemplary in our patience.
RIKER: Lieutenant Worf, fire phasers on full with a simultaneous spread of torpedoes.
Gul Evek didn't say "phaser rifles."
Gul Evek didn't say "large phasers."
Gul Evek said "Type-8 phasers."
He's referring to a specific type of phaser that the Federation is known to use.
Where they have been referred to as "Galor class phaser banks."
Apparently alot of phasers look like Federation weapons. And if they were identified as "specific type of Federation phasers" we'd hear Gul Evek say it.
I assume you mean his ENGLISH teachers, which begs the question of whether or not Worf actually bothered to learn English instead of picking up his parents' native Russian. He wouldn't have needed to LEARN anything; the universal translator works just as well on children as it does on adults, and certainly well enough that a Klingon toddler would be immediately able to communicate with his classmates without needing to learn anything.
If Worf were to learn any human language it would be learning just enough Russian to discretely talk to his parents without a translator. He doesn't NEED to learn any language at all, though, which kinda leads you to wonder what the bridge of the Enterprise would have sounded like if you came in and turned off all the universal translators (another example: does Jean Luc Picard speak English or French?).
Why are you bringing in fixed forward guns on fighters when the analogy is naval, not aerial?
Because you're carrying the naval vessel analogy WAY too far. Starships aren't naval vessels, they aren't designed along the same principles and they don't have the same design evolution trends. Thus there's no reason to assume the trend of "big guns, then small" would hold true for starships when it doesn't hold true for anything else (fighters, tanks, ballistic missiles, land armies, helicopter gunships, etc).
Then Starfleet didn't fight the latest war and wouldn't be limited to the equivalent of "small caliber phasers".
What are you even talking about? U.S. Navy has been using the 5-inch dp guns as its main naval round for the past forty years, during which time we have been engaged in combat with no less than 75 countries. The REASON for this is that 16-inch battleship guns, while powerful, aren't particularly efficient or even useful against aerial attack, especially now that the aircraft carrier has ENTIRELY supplanted the battleship as the primary combatant for most first-world navies. IOW, nine sixteen-inch guns are far less effective in battle than nine carrier-borne strike fighters.
Pop quiz time: of the three largest classes of aircraft carriers built during the WW-II era, what kind of gun armament did they carry?
Pick any ship in the game with a large noticeable blind spot (NX-01 has two big ones, so that's a good starting point). Stage the battle with any other vessel, attacking from a considerable standoff distance. The objective of the test is to see to what extent it is possible to enter NX-01's blind spot, and also to attack from that spot despite evasive maneuvering.
For the purposes of OUR tests, we need to figure out:
1) How long would it take the attacking vessel to get into that blind spot without evasive maneuvering
2) How long could it STAY in the blind spot without evasive maneuvering
3) How long would it take to get into that blind spot IF the target was maneuvering evasively
4) How long could you STAY in that blind spot if the target was maneuvering evasively
Different ship combinations (bird of prey, Voyager/Ent-A, Warbird/Galaxy, etc) might yield different results, being slightly less maneuverable.
And what else are we doing? Taking your word for a test that is inherently flawed
Okay, one showed an adversary that was thought up by the Douwd. The Husnock ship's effectiveness was up to the whim of the Douwd but at 40MW the E-D shields held and at 400GW it destabilized the shields. Direct 400GW hits to the hull caused "thermal damage" but nothing visible AFAIK. The Lysian destroyer had a 2.1 MJ disruptor capacity and was no match for the E-D.
Right. So 400GW is "Big blast, keep your head down!" 40MW is "What is this, little league?" and 2.1MJ is "Hail them before they hurt themselves.
That gives you a rough ballpark figure. For example, we would probably rate the big disruptors on the Vorcha cruisers from 20 to 40GW, capable of causing some serious pain to a starship with shields up but not IMMEDIATELY lethal otherwise (and clear one-shot kill against a cruiser-sized bird of prey). The smaller disruptors on the Bird of Prey, probably 10 to 15GW and probably the same for Romulan disruptors. Starship main phasers between 5 and 10GW seems about reasonable in that context, probably similar in output to the orbital EP-607 from "Arsenal of Freedom."
Sure, it's a runabout The E-D would have far stronger shields and would scale appropriately up in defensive capability.
400GW direct hits apparently didn't even scar the E-D[/quote]
I hope you're not referring to a visible/cosmetic scar on the hull like we see in the movies, because you're SOL in that department; nothing EVER leaves a visible car in the series even when the ship is clearly stated to have suffered major damage.
In the case of the Husnok, "thermal damage" to the hull is probably how an engineer would describe what General Chang's torpedoes were doing to the Enterprise-A before the shields finally went down. Lots of scorch marks and outer hull damage, but not a hull breach... yet.
Gul Evek didn't say "phaser rifles."
Gul Evek didn't say "large phasers."
Gul Evek said "Type-8 phasers."
He's referring to a specific type of phaser that the Federation is known to use.
Or just phasers. Evek's accusation is that Starfleet wasn't doing their job of keeping heavy weapons out of the hands of the Maquis. He didn't specify the nationality and phasers are used by both Cardassians and the Federation.
I assume you mean his ENGLISH teachers, which begs the question of whether or not Worf actually bothered to learn English instead of picking up his parents' native Russian. He wouldn't have needed to LEARN anything; the universal translator works just as well on children as it does on adults, and certainly well enough that a Klingon toddler would be immediately able to communicate with his classmates without needing to learn anything.
Sure, his English language teachers. He would be no different than most 1st generation immigrants who were born (or came very young) to a new country and do not have a noticeable accent.
As to whether the universal translator is just used from birth then that's a different question entirely since it would imply that learning isn't necessary (and teachers too). But since their are teachers that young Alexander had to go to learn from which Worf did before it's safe to imply he learned rather than relies on the universal translator...
Because you're carrying the naval vessel analogy WAY too far. Starships aren't naval vessels, they aren't designed along the same principles and they don't have the same design evolution trends. Thus there's no reason to assume the trend of "big guns, then small" would hold true for starships when it doesn't hold true for anything else (fighters, tanks, ballistic missiles, land armies, helicopter gunships, etc).
WW2 fighters carried weapons up to 37mm cannons. Modern day fighters carry the smaller 20mm and 30mm variety. But that again is fixed forward weaponry and of the aircraft metaphor.
I was just pointing out that your insistence to equate the main phasers of the E-D to 5" guns is a flawed comparison when there are no major weapons like fighters to supplant the cruisers and big ships of Star Trek. Star Trek is still a big ship vs big ship affair.
Pick any ship in the game with a large noticeable blind spot (NX-01 has two big ones, so that's a good starting point). Stage the battle with any other vessel, attacking from a considerable standoff distance. The objective of the test is to see to what extent it is possible to enter NX-01's blind spot, and also to attack from that spot despite evasive maneuvering.
Ok, you have me at a disadvantage here. What blind spots are on the NX-01? Which point in time (relative to an episode) are we talking about as the NX-01 has received upgrades during her run?
For the purposes of OUR tests, we need to figure out:
1) How long would it take the attacking vessel to get into that blind spot without evasive maneuvering
2) How long could it STAY in the blind spot without evasive maneuvering
3) How long would it take to get into that blind spot IF the target was maneuvering evasively
4) How long could you STAY in that blind spot if the target was maneuvering evasively
Different ship combinations (bird of prey, Voyager/Ent-A, Warbird/Galaxy, etc) might yield different results, being slightly less maneuverable.
A verifiable flawed data just produces noise. Why not find a valid application to test with? Encounters has no way to program in more accurate numbers.
You mean Malcolm saying "We can only maintain this speed for thirty more light years."
We're given the maximum power output in joules minus the time variable. We see that in the episode each shot it approx 2.5s. If we were trying to work backwards with Wattage data we would still need to time the beam contact time to come up with the total delivered amount of energy in Joules.
Again, 400GW from the Douwd created Husnock destabilized the shields and something prevented them from "reassembling". If the shields were truly knocked out or depleted Worf wouldn't be trying to "reassemble" them. The 400GW did no visible damage to the E-D.
That gives you a rough ballpark figure. For example, we would probably rate the big disruptors on the Vorcha cruisers from 20 to 40GW, capable of causing some serious pain to a starship with shields up but not IMMEDIATELY lethal otherwise
Hypothetically, if you started from the dubious 400GW number then a Romulan Warbird (TNG) would have it's big green pulse weapon in the 93 GW range per pulse since it knocked the E-D's shield down to 70% in three hits. In a later episode it takes twice as many hits to knock the E-D's shields down by 70% suggesting her shields are twice as strong. (IIRC)
For a Vorcha we don't really know her strength relative to the E-D. Was there such an episode where the E-D fought a Vorcha?
(and clear one-shot kill against a cruiser-sized bird of prey). The smaller disruptors on the Bird of Prey, probably 10 to 15GW and probably the same for Romulan disruptors. Starship main phasers between 5 and 10GW seems about reasonable in that context, probably similar in output to the orbital EP-607 from "Arsenal of Freedom."
The problem again, 400GW = no physical damage on the E-D. If 400GW is the shield capacity then the E-D's hull is significantly stronger than the shields
I hope you're not referring to a visible/cosmetic scar on the hull like we see in the movies, because you're SOL in that department; nothing EVER leaves a visible scar in the series even when the ship is clearly stated to have suffered major damage.
Well then, it would appear you're SOL in showing 400GW will leave any external damage and not blast holes in the ship. Now those Cardassian remote plasma sentries in DS9 blasted holes in the galaxy class ships so it would seem that with the exception of the Borg, the E-D didn't encounter anything that blasted a hole out of the ship during it's series run.
In the case of the Husnok, "thermal damage" to the hull is probably how an engineer would describe what General Chang's torpedoes were doing to the Enterprise-A before the shields finally went down. Lots of scorch marks and outer hull damage, but not a hull breach... yet.
Considering low powered phasers were able to blast holes in the movie Enterprise and even more low powered phasers were only able to scratch the paint off the Reliant then sure, scratching the paint would be "thermal damage". Those Cardassian orbital sentries then were firing well above 400GW in "Tears of the Prophets"...
There's got to be something better than Encounters out there 
