The OFFICIAL STNG-R general discussion thread!

[Dick_Valentine]

Which is the point of a restoration in my mind....to restore, not replace...unless absolutely necessary. Maybe the age of computer generated graphics has devalued the artistic value of special effects. For me, the days of physically crafted models and carefully composited special effects are akin to a fine art. I can't imagine someone replacing the backgrounds of classic paintings and justifying it with, "everyone has seen it a million times". lol

No, but people do go around painting over ugly or obscene graffitti to make it better, which you could argue is akin to the first couple of years of TNG special FX

Fine art, hardly

The TNG VFX were state of the art at the time. Unless you know of a sci fi TV show that had better ones.

So was the picture quality, at the time.

 

[JarodRussell]

I guess the picture quality on the original film frames was better even at that time.

 

[Dick_Valentine]

I guess the picture quality on the original film frames was better even at that time.

So the guy who painted the picture had...really nice brushes and...so colourful paint and only by repainting.....

Oh I give up now, fun though this was!

 

[JarodRussell]

I guess the picture quality on the original film frames was better even at that time.

So the guy who painted the picture had...really nice brushes and...so colourful paint and only by repainting.....

Oh I give up now, fun though this was!

In my opinion, the proper analogy would be that a guy sprays on a wall and someone takes a bad polaroid of it. And then years later someone takes a proper photograph of it.

 

[Ian Keldon]

Having watched that, I don't see what the fuss was about. TOS-R was able to add to the eps visually and generally did a good job for the budget they had.

Think of it in terms of what Eden FX would have brought to the table vs. what CBS-D brought to the table.

CBS-Digital had not attempted something of this magnitude before...whereas EdenFX were well established and knew their craft quite well.

Eden FX had the experience under their belts to make new FX, yet also make it blend far more seamlessly than CBS-Digital was able to do. With a few notable exceptions (space seed especially) the work of CBS-D jumped out as being CGI and did not look like it was part of the same show.

Looked pretty darn good to me.

The demo from Eden FX looks like what TOS could have been in the 60's with a motion picture budget.

Maybe, but for whatever reason they couldn't go with Eden so they did what they could, and it was more than acceptable to me.

The model work was art, and I think we need to be more respectful and mindful of that when doing restorations of shows like this.

I might rate this argument higher if the model work wasn't so dang static. I got bored with the constant use of the same few "pose" shots of the Enterprise just sitting in the middle of the screen with a hint of starfield movement behind it attempting to give the scene a little "kick".
If there was any real movement at all from just about ANY model, it was very basic and simplistic. Overall, the FX came out "stuffy" as a result.

And they reused and reused and reused models from the movies to save money. At the time it was the best they could do, and they didn't do a half-bad job. But they can go back in, for example, and use Andy's original Ambassador design. They could give us some new Klingon ships instead of constantly reusing the BoP model, and the beautiful CG Enterprise that they made for "These Are the Voyages". They could finally fix that stupid, inaccurate mock up of the Type 7.They could give us (as they did with TOS-R) a host of new camera angles on all the ships.

As long as it was supervised by the Okudas, Sternbach, et al, I'm confident we would not be disappointed by the results.

 

[JarodRussell]

The complaints always sound so bad, it makes me wonder how TNG survived 7 seasons.

 

[Captain Robert April]

I guess the picture quality on the original film frames was better even at that time.

So the guy who painted the picture had...really nice brushes and...so colourful paint and only by repainting.....

Oh I give up now, fun though this was!

In my opinion, the proper analogy would be that a guy sprays on a wall and someone takes a bad polaroid of it. And then years later someone takes a proper photograph of it.

More like someone took a highly detailed photo of the graffiti, then converted it down to a Polaroid, and ran a photocopy of the Polaroid.

We're finally gonna see the initial photograph, after several years of looking at photocopies of Polaroids.

 

[bullethead]

Eden FX had the experience under their belts to make new FX, yet also make it blend far more seamlessly than CBS-Digital was able to do. With a few notable exceptions (space seed especially) the work of CBS-D jumped out as being CGI and did not look like it was part of the same show.

The demo from Eden FX looks like what TOS could have been in the 60's with a motion picture budget.
.

I think that's precisely the problem. The Eden FX clip looks WAY too much like the stuff from the 60s, retaining the fairly low fidelity look and dynamics of the original shots, while loosing the "feel" of the show. CBS Digital at least managed to get their effects to feel like they fit the tone and dynamics of the show, even if some of the execution was lacking.

It's a restoration though...so 'restoring' and enhancing the original ship footage is appropriate. There will be CGI used for phasers, and other effects...but I don't want to see the ship shots replaced with CGI...especially when what we've seen restored so far looks so good.

The model work was art, and I think we need to be more respectful and mindful of that when doing restorations of shows like this.

To be blunt, no amount of restoration will make up for the amount of stock footage and undynamic VFX shots in most of TNG. That's really the biggest problem with the whole project - restoring the footage will just make all the problems more noticeable since it's all in HD. DS9 at least managed to accomplish more with its motion capture model work and doesn't have the consistency issues TNG has due to the different models.

 

[Michael]

Try this: http://www.flickr.com/photos/andrewdentremont/6467270035/in/photostream

I would have loved for the project to go into this direction. It's a shame they decided to go the other way.

 

[The Laughing Vulcan]

A question that may have already been answered in the past 100 pages...

But will there be an attempt to alter the colour balance of seasons 1 and 2 to match the later seasons? I've recently been watching the DVDs, and I've just started Season 3. It's as if someone remembered to turn up the colour control. All of a sudden the uniforms look the colours they are supposed to, the visual effects are much more vivid, and the whole thing seems nicely saturated and vibrant. Compared to that, seasons 1 and 2 are faded, almost pastel versions of what the show would eventually be.

 

[AviTrek]

I don't think I've seen that addressed directly, but you can probably get a feel for the direction from the trailer. Definitely by the time the sampler disc comes out we'll know what they did. I would imagine they will clean up the film as much as possible, but if the issue is the lighting of the quality of the film used(I believe I read that somewhere), then there may not be much they can do.

 

[NewHorizon]

I think that's precisely the problem. The Eden FX clip looks WAY too much like the stuff from the 60s, retaining the fairly low fidelity look and dynamics of the original shots, while loosing the "feel" of the show. CBS Digital at least managed to get their effects to feel like they fit the tone and dynamics of the show, even if some of the execution was lacking.

That's where I have to politely disagree. I don't think Eden FX lost the feel of the show...at least not for a demo, which I'm sure they would have refined before finishing the first episode.

I also don't feel like CBS D fit the tone or dynamic of the show...it looked like modern CGI tacked onto a 60's show in so many cases...whereas Eden FX had planned to make the effects look like they were produced on a higher 60's era budget.

It's a restoration though...so 'restoring' and enhancing the original ship footage is appropriate. There will be CGI used for phasers, and other effects...but I don't want to see the ship shots replaced with CGI...especially when what we've seen restored so far looks so good.

To be blunt, no amount of restoration will make up for the amount of stock footage and undynamic VFX shots in most of TNG. That's really the biggest problem with the whole project - restoring the footage will just make all the problems more noticeable since it's all in HD. DS9 at least managed to accomplish more with its motion capture model work and doesn't have the consistency issues TNG has due to the different models.

...and again, that's where I politely disagree. Were the project about 'revamping and recreating' The Next Generation', then replacing all the effects shots might then be appropriate, but it's not about that. It's about restoring the show for what it was, warts and all...and I'm really happy they're doing that because I'm quite honestly sick of the recent revisionist attitude taken toward many shows and movies.

If the original footage is lost, then sure...replace it...but if not, leave it alone and let the work of the visual effects artists of the time be seen.

I don't care if the same exterior shots are used over and over again...it doesn't matter. The stories are what matter.

 

[Michael]

Oh no, I hope they don't mess with the dark and moody lighting of the forst two seasons! I much prefer it over the bright and bland cinematography we got later on.

 

[AviTrek]

You know reading some of these arguments, I think some of the people here actually prefer that Greedo now shoots first.

 

[22 Stars]

lol, there always has to be one (or two).

 

[JJohnson]

Having watched that, I don't see what the fuss was about. TOS-R was able to add to the eps visually and generally did a good job for the budget they had.

Think of it in terms of what Eden FX would have brought to the table vs. what CBS-D brought to the table.

CBS-Digital had not attempted something of this magnitude before...whereas EdenFX were well established and knew their craft quite well.

Eden FX had the experience under their belts to make new FX, yet also make it blend far more seamlessly than CBS-Digital was able to do. With a few notable exceptions (space seed especially) the work of CBS-D jumped out as being CGI and did not look like it was part of the same show.

Looked pretty darn good to me.

The demo from Eden FX looks like what TOS could have been in the 60's with a motion picture budget.

Maybe, but for whatever reason they couldn't go with Eden so they did what they could, and it was more than acceptable to me.

The model work was art, and I think we need to be more respectful and mindful of that when doing restorations of shows like this.

I might rate this argument higher if the model work wasn't so dang static. I got bored with the constant use of the same few "pose" shots of the Enterprise just sitting in the middle of the screen with a hint of starfield movement behind it attempting to give the scene a little "kick".
If there was any real movement at all from just about ANY model, it was very basic and simplistic. Overall, the FX came out "stuffy" as a result.

And they reused and reused and reused models from the movies to save money. At the time it was the best they could do, and they didn't do a half-bad job. But they can go back in, for example, and use Andy's original Ambassador design. They could give us some new Klingon ships instead of constantly reusing the BoP model, and the beautiful CG Enterprise that they made for "These Are the Voyages". They could finally fix that stupid, inaccurate mock up of the Type 7.They could give us (as they did with TOS-R) a host of new camera angles on all the ships.

As long as it was supervised by the Okudas, Sternbach, et al, I'm confident we would not be disappointed by the results.

I would agree with everything except the Ambassador bit. We've already established the Ambassador class's look, so changing it I don't think would work too well. But I agree 100% that it would be great to give us some shots that aren't so re-used and static. That was one of the great things about TOS-R - the variety of the shots, and not just the same 7 shots over and over and over and over and over.... (especially that one through the neck at warp shot, with the stars at a different angle from the ship. that shot irritates me.).

At a bare minimum, I would like to see different establishing shots - warp, orbit, entering orbit, fixed ship scales (Birds of Pray should not be the same size as the Enteprise D), and a few additional ship classes, or change the ship class if it isn't named in the shot to something else other than the Miranda/Excelsior/Oberth reuse, and if there's a battle or the ship should be *moving* in a shot due to dialog indicating so, please change the shot so it does move instead of just sitting there.

Restore yes, but also fix what couldn't be done first time around.

 

[Jon1701]

A question that may have already been answered in the past 100 pages...

But will there be an attempt to alter the colour balance of seasons 1 and 2 to match the later seasons? I've recently been watching the DVDs, and I've just started Season 3. It's as if someone remembered to turn up the colour control. All of a sudden the uniforms look the colours they are supposed to, the visual effects are much more vivid, and the whole thing seems nicely saturated and vibrant. Compared to that, seasons 1 and 2 are faded, almost pastel versions of what the show would eventually be.

In later seasons - the colour balance jumps around from show to show.

Season 4 is the worse for it. Check out the colour balance in these four consecutive shows.

Look at the colour of Red Picards uniform

Data's Day

The Wounded

Devils Due

Clues

I mean, some of this may be cinematography but I would be astonished if this wasn't all balanced out in the HD releases.

 

[Boris Skrbic]

Can we please replace the "-R" in the title of this thread with "HD"? The -R suffix already means "Remastered with a capital R", in other words remastered with new VFX on top. This is just TNG in HD.

 

[Michael]

^ I guess what Vulcan really means is, will they make shots like these ...

... look more like this ...

Which, personally, I hope they won't.

 

[Skywalker]

Er, why not? The first one looks nasty. The colors are all screwed up, and the picture's dull and muted. The second one looks great.