What don't you like about Christmas?

[Misfit Toy]

I fail to see why it is so hard to understand that one can appreciates these ingredients of Christianity as a hardcore atheist, I fail to see why it is controversial to say that this is the Christianity one should strive for, I fail to see why it is so controversial to claim that one can fight against Christian fascists from an atheist position but also from inside Christianity, from the position of the Christian left ... or as I would call it, the real, original, pre-Orthodox Christianity which incidentally has quite some things in common with Trek.

You probably fail to see it because the ingredients that you mention did not originate with Christianity, therefore cannot be said to be "Christian" in nature.

 

[horatio83]

So you are not for the emancipation of Black folks and workers? That's what MLK fought for.

Could you please dial back the hostility and stop misrepresenting what other people are saying?

I say that I embrace the values of MLK, somebody claims that these values need not be embraced by everybody, I ask whether he embraces them. Nothing hostile or misrepresentative in here.

I fail to see why it is so hard to understand that one can appreciates these ingredients of Christianity as a hardcore atheist, I fail to see why it is controversial to say that this is the Christianity one should strive for, I fail to see why it is so controversial to claim that one can fight against Christian fascists from an atheist position but also from inside Christianity, from the position of the Christian left ... or as I would call it, the real, original, pre-Orthodox Christianity which incidentally has quite some things in common with Trek.

You probably fail to see it because the ingredients that you mention did not originate with Christianity, therefore cannot be said to be "Christian" in nature.

I never said anything about originiality, I said they are incarnated in Christianity as well as Trek and probably many other spaces. Reading skills are essential.

 

[horatio83]

What is so hard to understand about appreciating values because they are right, not merely because they are Christian?

Your POV seems to essentially be that if a value didn't come from Christianity (such as tolerance for other belief systems), it's not worthwhile. Well, fuck that.

Nope.

I embrace these values wherever I find them, be it in the origins of Christianity or in Trek.
http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=5456647&postcount=168

About the actual values, I think we are basically both left-liberals but there are some slight differences between us. Might be interesting to discuss them but perhaps in another thread.

 

[Misfit Toy]

I never said anything about originiality, I said they are incarnated in Christianity as well as Trek and probably many other spaces. Reading skills are essential.

I didn't say that you said anything about originality. You may want to brush up on reading skills too.

Calling those ingredients "Christian" is akin to calling poetry Christian. Poetry exists in Christianity. Poetry exists outside of Christianity.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

So you are not for the emancipation of Black folks and workers? That's what MLK fought for.

Could you please dial back the hostility and stop misrepresenting what other people are saying?

I say that I embrace the values of MLK, somebody claims that these values need not be embraced by everybody, I ask whether he embraces them. Nothing hostile or misrepresentative in here.

You introduce a tangent, someone sticks to the primary discussion, and then you make a wild leap of logic that they don't support civil rights even though that clearly was not the point they were trying to make.

You've also gone around insulting people's intelligence and being unnecessarily hostile, in addition to frequently tossing out a lot of bizarre non sequiturs that serve no purpose but to confuse the issue at hand.

Stop doing that.

 

[horatio83]

I never said anything about originiality, I said they are incarnated in Christianity as well as Trek and probably many other spaces. Reading skills are essential.

I didn't say that you said anything about originality. You may want to brush up on reading skills too.

Calling those ingredients "Christian" is akin to calling poetry Christian. Poetry exists in Christianity. Poetry exists outside of Christianity.

Yep, that's what I said, universality is incarnated many places, among them Trek, early Christianity, worker's movements, revolutionary collectives, it is probably a long list.

 

[horatio83]

Could you please dial back the hostility and stop misrepresenting what other people are saying?

I say that I embrace the values of MLK, somebody claims that these values need not be embraced by everybody, I ask whether he embraces them. Nothing hostile or misrepresentative in here.

You introduce a tangent, someone sticks to the primary discussion, and then you make a wild leap of logic that they don't support civil rights even though that clearly was not the point they were trying to make.

You've also gone around insulting people's intelligence and being unnecessarily hostile, in addition to frequently tossing out a lot of bizarre non sequiturs that serve no purpose but to confuse the issue at hand.

Stop doing that.

Strange, when somebody says that he or she does not think that the values of MLK have to be embraced by everybody asking whether he embraces them personally is a wild jump of logic?
About me being insultive, I read lots of fucks in here but never used one myself.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

I say that I embrace the values of MLK, somebody claims that these values need not be embraced by everybody, I ask whether he embraces them. Nothing hostile or misrepresentative in here.

You introduce a tangent, someone sticks to the primary discussion, and then you make a wild leap of logic that they don't support civil rights even though that clearly was not the point they were trying to make.

You've also gone around insulting people's intelligence and being unnecessarily hostile, in addition to frequently tossing out a lot of bizarre non sequiturs that serve no purpose but to confuse the issue at hand.

Stop doing that.

Strange, when somebody says that he or she does not think that the values of MLK have to be embraced by everybody asking whether he embraces them personally is a wild jump of logic?
About me being insultive, I read lots of fucks in here but never used one myself.

You can take your false dichotomies and shove 'em. I support some of MLK's values, like equality and brotherhood. I do not support others, like the notion that everyone should be Christian.

See how that works?

 

[Misfit Toy]

I never said anything about originiality, I said they are incarnated in Christianity as well as Trek and probably many other spaces. Reading skills are essential.

I didn't say that you said anything about originality. You may want to brush up on reading skills too.

Calling those ingredients "Christian" is akin to calling poetry Christian. Poetry exists in Christianity. Poetry exists outside of Christianity.

Yep, that's what I said, universality is incarnated many places, among them Trek, early Christianity, worker's movements, revolutionary collectives, it is probably a long list.

So you can see that referring to such as 'ingredients of Christianity' is, to say the least, a poor choice of words. If such values are universal, then constraining them by calling them 'ingredients of Christianity' weakens your argument considerably.

 

[horatio83]

Universality is also an ingredient of Trek which unlike Christianity is consistently universal, the UFP always exists. I am not a native speaker so pardon my poor English, I simply don't find better words than incarnated or ingredient.
Anyway, back to the main topic. I was wrong, "Happy Holidays" is more universal than "Merry Christmas" even if it is uttered without any 'wars on Christmas' connotations. I am merely a lunatic lefty who wants to open up a space beyond the Christian right-wingers vs. political correct lefties dimension.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Universality is also an ingredient of Trek which unlike Christianity is consistently universal, the UFP always exists. I am not a native speaker so pardon my poor English, I simply don't find better words than incarnated or ingredient.
Anyway, back to the main topic. I was wrong, "Happy Holidays" is more universal than "Merry Christmas" even if it is uttered without any 'wars on Christmas' connotations. I am merely a lunatic lefty who wants to open up a space beyond the Christian right-wingers vs. political correct lefties dimension.

You're an atheist, right? Maybe you should climb down off that cross...

 

[horatio83]

You can take your false dichotomies and shove 'em. I support some of MLK's values, like equality and brotherhood. I do not support others, like the notion that everyone should be Christian.

See how that works?

I totally agree with this, crusaders (including neo-crusaders like Bush and his Christian militia Blackwater) are wicked.
As I try to say the entire time, we and seemingly most people in here are left-liberals. Our differences are tiny, one difference being that I am more for universality and emancipatory struggle whereas you are more for respect and tolerance. The only thing we disagree on is political correctness. I am against it but I appreciate civility and will not tell you to shove anything up your butt.

Universality is also an ingredient of Trek which unlike Christianity is consistently universal, the UFP always exists. I am not a native speaker so pardon my poor English, I simply don't find better words than incarnated or ingredient.
Anyway, back to the main topic. I was wrong, "Happy Holidays" is more universal than "Merry Christmas" even if it is uttered without any 'wars on Christmas' connotations. I am merely a lunatic lefty who wants to open up a space beyond the Christian right-wingers vs. political correct lefties dimension.

You're an atheist, right? Maybe you should climb down off that cross...

Maybe you should be more tolerant (I don't mind intolerance but you emphasized how important it is) about an atheist who finds a few aspects of monotheism good. I mean, gee, you sound the entire time as if I were the enemy. I am not, I am with you in the fight against the Christian fascists who destroy everything that is great and inspiring about your country.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Amazing how non-issues refuse to die.

The funniest thing about the ersatz Happy Holidays controversy-- aside from the fact that the expression comes from Irving Berlin and Ike-- is that even the most exclusive of Christians celebrate both Christmas and New Year's.

 

[RoJoHen]

is that even the most exclusive of Christians celebrate both Christmas and New Year's.

Exactly!

New Years is a holiday! It's included in "Happy Holidays" too! People don't go around saying "Happy Holidays" when they're only talking about Christmas.

 

[MacLeod]

Actually I would consider myself I centrist, but then again that might be down to slight variations in the political speectrum. As bits and peices I've seen on the web re: the political spectrum the US right is diferent from the UK right.

I.e. Whilst the Democrats are considered a left party in the US, they would be closer the centre in the UK and the Republicans would be considered a right wing party. Whilst in the UK some viewpoints would place the Labour Party as centre-left and the Conservatives as centre-right.

 

[Gryffindorian]

I can't believe no one has mentioned these yet:

(1) The Traffic
(2) The Crowds
(3) The Long Lines

Sure, I also hate:

• The commercialism
• The political correctness
• The obligatory gift-giving (including giving a gift to someone simply because I feel I have to)
• The haters and whiners who complain about Christmas being too religious or not religious enough
• People who are offended by holiday greetings, such as Happy Hanukkah, Merry Christmas, or Happy Holidays
• People who are offended by other people who are offended by other people
• People who are offended by others who are offended by other people who are offended by others
• This whole thread

 

[RoJoHen]

[*]This whole thread
[/LIST]

Really? The whole thread?

 

[Gryffindorian]

[*]This whole thread
[/LIST]

Really? The whole thread?

Yes, I hate everything because I'm a whiny sonuvabitch.

 

[Zulu Romeo]

[*]This whole thread
[/LIST]

Really? The whole thread?

Yes, I hate everything because I'm a whiny sonuvabitch.

Even Brussels sprouts?

 

[Gil T.Azell]

Here's my list of what I don't like about Christmas:

- pressure to find the perfect gift
- anticipation of someone possibly not liking my gift
- the crazy drivers looking for the perfect gift
- the over-indulgence of materialism
- the loss of reason for the season due to commercialism

Otherwise, Chrismtas is my favorite season of all. I try to focus on the all positive aspects of Christmas....

A few of those
and the loneliness I sometimes feel, even though I have a place to go for dinner.
It's only me Christmas morning.