What don't you like about Christmas?
- Thread starter Warped9
- Start date
Awesome. 
What I don't like: hearing Destiny's Child or Michael Buble versions of Christmas songs. Makes my ears bleed.
People can very easily take offence when no offence is intended. Of course there are many who don't celebrate Christmas, but that doesn't mean many and likely most folks wishing you a "Merry Christmas" are intentionally out to offend them. At heart it's really "have a good or happy day on the 25th of December" even if you're just enjoying a day off and not observing the holiday itself.
I think this is kind of tangental to a discussion I was having with my parents the other day. My parents have long given up on going to church. They still believe in God and still enjoy celebrating Christmas, but it's the Church they've lost faith in. They no longer feel they require the organized rituals dictated by someone else to be religious. Like many of us they've heard too much crap coming out about the Church to feel comfortable going there anymore. Yet they still say their prayers at night and still observe certain holidays. And they intend no offence to anyone particularly when they say "Merry Christmas" to you. They have a very much live-and-let-live outlook. And this discussion came about because I had asked my mother if she'd like to go to Christmas Eve mass because I know she hasn't gone for a very long time.
If someone were to say to my parents that they weren't good Catholics because they didn't go to church my parents would probably reply, "nuts to you." They have a strong moral code and lead their lives as best as they can in accordance with what they've learned over the years within and without the Church (and growing up in Quebec during the 1930s-'50s there was a very strong religious presence there). And from what I've seen my parents' experience isn't at all unique.
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How about you stop trying to ignore the valid points made against your weird reasoning instead of going off on tangents all the time.
You conveniently ignored this:
There's just hardly any point to be made against it.
In my environment (Germany and Italy) I don't have an issue with random people saying "Merry Christmas" even though I am an atheist. Their intentions are good. There's nothing malicious behind it. It's meant in an inclusive way. They celebrate Christmas and want me to have a good time no matter whether I celebrate it or not. It's more cultural than religious. Heck, the Turkish guy selling a kebab wished me Merry Christmas yesterday.
Yet the Human Fund is still right. It would still be more inclusive to use "Happy Holidays" instead. It's just not a big issue at all because there's no agenda behind it when people say "Merry Christmas" in this environment.
But the religious environment in the US is a lot different. There you have the right-wing Christians trying to push their agenda with shit like the avatar Maxwell House quoted earlier. There it makes sense to complain about this right-wing bullshit and use "Happy Holidays".
It's not the left-wing trying to be annoyingly PC. It's about reasonable people not putting up with right-wing nonsense.
In Germany or Italy I randomly say "Happy Holidays" or "Merry Christmas". It makes no difference to me. I say both without thinking about it. But in the US I'd complain about the agenda behind "Merry Christmas."
My guilty pleasure is East 17's Stay Another Day.
[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BXR5dgRmO0[/yt]
That damn Paul McCartney song is what I don't like about Christmas. Musical genius though Paul may be, I can't stand hear him warbling over and over "Simply having a wonderful Christmastime". Okay, Paul, WE GET IT!!! 
That's exactly how I feel and what I wanted to say, only said better that I ever could. Thanks for being the polite, reasonable, clear and eloquent poster I was too lazy to be!
There's a station here that plays Christmas music around the clock from Thanksgiving to Christmas. I actually think it's kind of cool. Whenever my station goes to commercial or is playing something I don't care for, I switch over there. It's a nice respite from the overt commercialism. And I really like hearing the traditional stuff from Nat King Cole, Burl Ives, Gene Autry, Peggy Lee and the like.
But.. with all of the history of Christmas music to choose from, they play two songs so incessantly that I'm growing to despise them: "Little Drummer Boy" and "Do You Hear What I Hear?" I swear, it seems like every third song they play is some version of one of those two songs.
I also cannot stomach manipulative dreck like that "Dear Jesus, give my dead mother some new shoes" song. Or that little girl singing that "forgive them for beating their baby, I hope she survives" bullshit. Those are the auditory equivalent of a spammy email forward with an agenda.
But.. with all of the history of Christmas music to choose from, they play two songs so incessantly that I'm growing to despise them: "Little Drummer Boy" and "Do You Hear What I Hear?" I swear, it seems like every third song they play is some version of one of those two songs.
I also cannot stomach manipulative dreck like that "Dear Jesus, give my dead mother some new shoes" song. Or that little girl singing that "forgive them for beating their baby, I hope she survives" bullshit. Those are the auditory equivalent of a spammy email forward with an agenda.
The rest of the day after the gifts are open.... it's just Thanksgiving all over.
Claiming that I have no understanding about the danger of the Christian fascists in the US is not a valid point, it is bullsh*t.
Explaining why "Merry Christmas" is, at least for me, a hardcore atheist, a very inclusive word is not a tangent, it is essential to the discussion. It is neither "weird reasoning" just because you cannot imagine that a lefty embraces actual universality instead of political correctness.
Merry Christmas and Happy Hanukkah to everybody, especially to the PC crowd who feels insulted by these words.
Sad how commercialism undoes the essence of Christmas.The stress that makes people flip out. I saw two screaming incidents just a few hours ago, one cyclist vs. driver and one dude completely irate because someone didn't open the door for him. I'm certain Xmas intensifies these situations since there's so much to do with so little time.
General urban entitlement is a factor as well. I live in Toronto, or as I like to call it, the "get out of my way" city.
Good job conveniently ignoring the rest of my post where I elaborated my points. You would have noticed that I'm not a PC-crusader. I stated that the issue is related to your social environment. In Europe the discussion would seem silly. In the US the situation is different.
You're so passive-aggressive by the way, it's charmingly bizarre.
You don't have to censor the word "bullshit" here by the way. We're used to reading bullshit.
You're so passive-aggressive by the way, it's charmingly bizarre.
You don't have to censor the word "bullshit" here by the way. We're used to reading bullshit.
Claiming that I have no understanding about the danger of the Christian fascists in the US is not a valid point, it is bullsh*t.
Explaining why "Merry Christmas" is, at least for me, a hardcore atheist, a very inclusive word is not a tangent, it is essential to the discussion. It is neither "weird reasoning" just because you cannot imagine that a lefty embraces actual universality instead of political correctness.
Merry Christmas and Happy Hanukkah to everybody, especially to the PC crowd who feels insulted by these words.
Sad how commercialism undoes the essence of Christmas.The stress that makes people flip out. I saw two screaming incidents just a few hours ago, one cyclist vs. driver and one dude completely irate because someone didn't open the door for him. I'm certain Xmas intensifies these situations since there's so much to do with so little time.
General urban entitlement is a factor as well. I live in Toronto, or as I like to call it, the "get out of my way" city.
Your perception is just that: your perception. You may perceive Christmas to be universal, crossing all faiths (as well as those without any faith), but that is simply your own perception. Some people do find normalization of Christian values offensive and oppressive, and they have every right to express that view and ask for a little mutual respect.
It is not a matter of my stupid perception but, as I say the entire time, of there not merely being a Christian right but also a Christian left.
Which Christian values are we talking about, the ones of Bill O'Reilly or Martin Luther King? The former are not merely offensive and oppressing but utterly wicked whereas the latter are emancipating. I embrace them despite being an atheist because they coincide with my values and I doubt that I am the only atheist who admires Christian lefties like MLK.
The very word "liberation theology" demonstrates that religion can be used for something good. Most of the time it is used for something bad, so the two options are to leave it alone or to use it for something good. All I am arguing for is that we should not ignore the second option.
Which Christian values are we talking about, the ones of Bill O'Reilly or Martin Luther King? The former are not merely offensive and oppressing but utterly wicked whereas the latter are emancipating. I embrace them despite being an atheist because they coincide with my values and I doubt that I am the only atheist who admires Christian lefties like MLK.
The very word "liberation theology" demonstrates that religion can be used for something good. Most of the time it is used for something bad, so the two options are to leave it alone or to use it for something good. All I am arguing for is that we should not ignore the second option.
It is not a matter of my stupid perception but, as I say the entire time, of there not merely being a Christian right but also a Christian left.
Which Christian values are we talking about, the ones of Bill O'Reilly or Martin Luther King? The former are not merely offensive and oppressing but utterly wicked whereas the latter are emancipating. I embrace them despite being an atheist because they coincide with my values and I doubt that I am the only atheist who admires Christian lefties like MLK.
The very word "liberation theology" demonstrates that religion can be used for something good. Most of the time it is used for something bad, so the two options are to leave it alone or to use it for something good. All I am arguing for is that we should not ignore the second option.
Just because you embrace them doesn't mean everyone else wants to, or needs to do the same.
Wow, really? I'm trying to respond to your posts rationally and sincerely and you're going to come at me with that?
It is not a matter of my stupid perception but, as I say the entire time, of there not merely being a Christian right but also a Christian left.
Which Christian values are we talking about, the ones of Bill O'Reilly or Martin Luther King? The former are not merely offensive and oppressing but utterly wicked whereas the latter are emancipating. I embrace them despite being an atheist because they coincide with my values and I doubt that I am the only atheist who admires Christian lefties like MLK.
The very word "liberation theology" demonstrates that religion can be used for something good. Most of the time it is used for something bad, so the two options are to leave it alone or to use it for something good. All I am arguing for is that we should not ignore the second option.
It doesn't matter. The very fact that you are identifying Christian morals as universal morals shows you've got this whole thing ass-backwards.
Christianity does not have and never had a monopoly on morality. To put another way: I do not care what Christian values are, regardless of the specific values being presented. If a specific value is worthwhile, it is worthwhile independent of its religious source. In the absence of Christianity, do murder, theft, and rape become acceptable? Of course not.
Why isn't tolerance a Christian value?
Because tolerance is not important. It would be obscene for a feminist to demand to be tolerated by men, it's a matter of legal rights, economic exploitation, raw power and so on.
What's the point of tolerating Blacks / women / homosexuals when they are still overrepresented in the prisons / suffer from wage discrimination / are forbidden to marry? I am sure there were many slaveowners who tolerated their slaves. That's not the issue, the goal is always to change social power structures in favour of those who have less power.
I am not saying that Christian morals are universal, there are all kind of Christians. What I am saying that the idea of universality exists in the Gospels and existed during the beginning of Christianity, after Paul opened it up to Gentiles. Who joined this strange Jewish sect? The excluded, the poor.
After three centuries it became a state religion and a pretty nasty institution and the idea was lost.
So what I am saying is not that Christianity is universal but that the idea of universality exists, among other spaces, in Christianity. Another space in which it exists is e.g. Star Trek with United Earth and the United Federation of Planets. There exist probably numerous more incarnations of universality.
What's the point of tolerating Blacks / women / homosexuals when they are still overrepresented in the prisons / suffer from wage discrimination / are forbidden to marry? I am sure there were many slaveowners who tolerated their slaves. That's not the issue, the goal is always to change social power structures in favour of those who have less power.
I am not saying that Christian morals are universal, there are all kind of Christians. What I am saying that the idea of universality exists in the Gospels and existed during the beginning of Christianity, after Paul opened it up to Gentiles. Who joined this strange Jewish sect? The excluded, the poor.
After three centuries it became a state religion and a pretty nasty institution and the idea was lost.
So what I am saying is not that Christianity is universal but that the idea of universality exists, among other spaces, in Christianity. Another space in which it exists is e.g. Star Trek with United Earth and the United Federation of Planets. There exist probably numerous more incarnations of universality.
I'm sorry, but an argument like, "Christianity is universal, therefore non-Christians should embrace its values" is not going to fly. Christians may want their religion to be the "one true way," but it isn't, not in a pluralistic, diverse world.
If you mean that there are places where we can find common ground between Christians and non-Christians, I would agree. However, the values that make this possible are only coincidentally Christian in nature--values like mercy, brotherhood, and charity did not originate with Christianity, and it is dishonest to claim that their universality originated with the Gospels. This would also imply non-Western religions can't have those concepts, since Christians invented them and spread them around.
And claiming "tolerance is not important" tells me you must live in quite a privileged circumstance. It's easy for people who don't suffer intolerance to believe it's not a big deal.
You said that not everybody should embrace the values of Martin Luther King. Pretty natural that I ask then whether you personally don't embrace them.
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