What don't you like about Christmas?
- Thread starter Warped9
- Start date
Nope, it is a argument with a least a little bit of thought behind it. You might wanna try it yourself, you know, using your brain, putting your ideas into words, getting a discussion going.
Exactly what is it you think would be a better approach here? I'm not a Christian, so I'm not going to pretend to believe in something I don't, and I want the "right-wing Christians" to stay the hell out of everybody else's business. My attitude is "live and let live." I don't think I should have to give something up for what I consider a minimum baseline of respect.
The attitude of conservative Christians in the US is that "Happy Holidays" is an evil atheist plot to destroy Christmas. There is no reasoning with people like that. They deserve only ridicule and derision. The War on Christmas would be more aptly called the War on Non-Christians--or rather, an extension of it, since that's a year-round state of affairs in the US.
You don't live here so I don't expect you to understand, but religion is inherently political in this country precisely because Christians both dominate the national debate and claim to be persecuted at every turn.
I've been reading this thread and something struck a nerve that I kind of want to get out.
What I don't like about Christmas? The religious aspect has almost been taken out of the entire Holiday.
Now, I'm a catholic (Not one of those insane people mind you as I admit I don't go to church every week) and the first thing I think of when I think of this day is the celebration of the birth of Christ. Unfortunately, it's boards like this where I'm afraid to even admit my religious feelings because then I'm afraid that I'll have all the holier than thou athiests jump on me saying I'm a lunatic or something.
Now, I know that probably won't happen, but I'm reading this thread where Christianity is being placed in kind of a negative light, and I don't know what it is like elsewhere but I have to think most Christians wouldn't want to force their beliefs on others. I know I'm not that way. Hell, just the other day I was wondering when Hanukkah was, and found out it starts tomorrow night. I think that's cool each religion has thier own special time during this season and if you don't have a religion, than I do hope however you spend the day is special to you.
I think one of the things I still like about Thanksgiving is that it's remained kind of a "pure" holiday. By that I mean there is no commercialism for that day, it's just getting together with the family and having a nice meal, but it's still just that.
I know we have a lot of people who don't believe in religion and would probably rather just spit on it and hope it goes away. I'm just here to say we're not all evil people. Everyone has their own unique beliefs but we're just as normal (or average) as everyone else.
To that I say Marry Christmas everyone, and hope it's a special day, however you celebrate.
What I don't like about Christmas? The religious aspect has almost been taken out of the entire Holiday.
Now, I'm a catholic (Not one of those insane people mind you as I admit I don't go to church every week) and the first thing I think of when I think of this day is the celebration of the birth of Christ. Unfortunately, it's boards like this where I'm afraid to even admit my religious feelings because then I'm afraid that I'll have all the holier than thou athiests jump on me saying I'm a lunatic or something.
Now, I know that probably won't happen, but I'm reading this thread where Christianity is being placed in kind of a negative light, and I don't know what it is like elsewhere but I have to think most Christians wouldn't want to force their beliefs on others. I know I'm not that way. Hell, just the other day I was wondering when Hanukkah was, and found out it starts tomorrow night. I think that's cool each religion has thier own special time during this season and if you don't have a religion, than I do hope however you spend the day is special to you.
I think one of the things I still like about Thanksgiving is that it's remained kind of a "pure" holiday. By that I mean there is no commercialism for that day, it's just getting together with the family and having a nice meal, but it's still just that.
I know we have a lot of people who don't believe in religion and would probably rather just spit on it and hope it goes away. I'm just here to say we're not all evil people. Everyone has their own unique beliefs but we're just as normal (or average) as everyone else.
To that I say Marry Christmas everyone, and hope it's a special day, however you celebrate.
I don't understand how religion is taken out of the holiday if you're celebrating it in whatever way you choose. I don't think anyone here, atheist or not, cares if you are religious and want to celebrate a religious holiday. We just don't want to be included in any religious aspects.
Maybe "Religion taken out of the holiday" might have been the wrong phrase, and I apologize for that. However, why do you feel like you are forced to be included? You have the right to celebrate however you chose too, and you can ignore the religious overtones. I mean are you saying if I came up to you and wished you a Marry Christmas, you would take offense to it?
I'm sorry but this whole discussion kind of reminds me of the first South Park Christmas episode. What is non-denominational anymore.
So you don't want to force your beliefs on others, yet you choose to wish everyone a Merry Christmas including those people who don't celebrate it?
Fundamentally, this is the problem. I am a secular Jew and I do not celebrate Christmas in any shape or form. While I generally understand that people who wish me a Merry Christmas do it with good intentions, the reality is that this is disrespectful to my own beliefs because you are superseding mine with yours. I wish people a happy whatever holiday they're celebrating... including Christmas to my friends who celebrate it... and fall back to Happy Holidays when I don't know. I do this because it is respectful of the beliefs of whomever I am wishing things on.
That's what this whole thing is ultimately about to me... respect for other people. You can say that you want to respect other faiths, but when you put your beliefs above mine then your actions are telling a different story.
^I also think it's about knowing your audience though. I mean yeah I wished everyone a Marry Christmas because most people on this board does celebrate Christmas, but I do also understand there are those who probably don't celebrate. It's a double edged sword that will never go away.
Even though in fairness to me I did bring up Hanukkah and said it's great that everyone has their own way to celebrate the season. I don't know if you celebrate Hanaukkah, but if you do, hope it's a great next 8 days for you. If not, than I give up.
Even though in fairness to me I did bring up Hanukkah and said it's great that everyone has their own way to celebrate the season. I don't know if you celebrate Hanaukkah, but if you do, hope it's a great next 8 days for you. If not, than I give up.
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Amaris
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You need to knock that shit off, now. You were using the same tactic with me the other day. If you can't discuss something in this forum without digging at other people, you need to take a break.
Whatever your religious beliefs or lack therof, Christmas is part of the Christian religion. As such I can understand why certain groups might not like the fact that others would prefer they said Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas. As it could be perceived as trying to force your views upon anothers
Quite a few countries culture are in part historically based around a religion ( i know thats a simplification), now whilst religion has declined in some countries and due to factors like immigration other religions have become more common in countires. The historical one tends to be the one that has impacted how the culture of the country has grown.
Quite a few countries culture are in part historically based around a religion ( i know thats a simplification), now whilst religion has declined in some countries and due to factors like immigration other religions have become more common in countires. The historical one tends to be the one that has impacted how the culture of the country has grown.
Yup, did the same to me out of nowhere the other day, sticking up for a troll spamming the board in the process, I'm pretty sure he's just here to rile us up.
But does ridiculing them achieve anything. Take a look at Berlusconi, everybody including himself made fun of him and he nonetheless stayed in power for far too long. And didn't Bush have a bit of Berlusconi in him as well?
I talked the entire time about the Christian right, I am perfectly aware of their power.
We disagree about the way to fight them. I advocate a Christianity of universality, peace and inclusiveness, what the Christian left stands for. You advocate if I understand it correctly (if I am wrong please correct me) conventional liberal tolerance.
Note that this is virtually the same. Our goals are identical, only our paths are different.
My fear is that liberalism will slowly rot away in this century unless it aligns itself with universal movements.
Take the Occupy folks, they dared to be nearly universal, they dared to claim that they are the 99%. The next step is to say we are the 100%, even the 1% don't want a society plagues by radical inequalities and political unrest in the long run.
In other words, I fear that if you merely play the liberal game of 'you do your thing and I do mine, you stay out of my business and we don't harm each other' other forces will become so strong that they undermine this very modest liberal basics. You gotta be universal to fight these anti-liberal forces.
"This is insanity" constitutes discussion in your book? Interesting.
I see, I am trolling when I question your intelligence after you called somebody else an idiot? Lovely double standard.
But that is absolutely what "Happy Holidays" is for. It's not about being PC, it's not about trying to not offend people, it's about being respectful to people other then yourself. If you know what holiday someone celebrates, of course wish them that they have a great whatever. But if you don't know, why do you insist on making an assumption?
I wouldn't be offended unless the person was obviously saying it to make a point. I don't generally feel like I'm forced to participate in the religious aspects, at least I haven't since I finished school. I just don't get what people are complaining about. I mean really, who is ruining Christmas for you and in what way?
The whole Hannukah thing also bugs me, like if people mention that (and now Kwanzaa) they've got all their bases covered.
What the hell does that have to do with anything? This argumentation tactic of trying to make the discussion about something else isn't going to fly with me. This is about Christmas, and whether saying "Happy Holidays" somehow diminishes Christmas for those who celebrate it. I argue that it doesn't--it takes nothing away from Christians, and allows non-Christians to celebrate as they see fit. What's the problem?
Which is why there is pushback against Christians when they pull this "taking the Christ out of Christmas" whinefest every year. People are free to exercise their rights as they see fit--until they start stepping on mine. Generalize this approach, and that's the classic liberal strategy.
In any case, you seem intent on changing what the discussion is about, so I'm not sure what more will be accomplished here. "Tolerance" shouldn't mean "just give up and let Christians force everyone to norm to their beliefs." Maybe it does to you, but not to me.
There's no thought in your argument as far as I can tell simply because they don't make a lick of sense and don't have any understanding of Christianity, atheism and the current religious setting of the USA. I can't really argue against something that has no logic in it.
I'll simply state again that left or right-wing Christians don't matter in this discussion. I wish people a Happy Holidays if I don't know them because, wait for it, NOT EVERYONE celebrates Christmas. To automatically assume they do by saying "Merry Christmas" is actually somewhat prejudice.
Enlighten me, which part of "back in the sixties guys like Martin Luther King in the US and liberation theology in Latin America have been strong, nowadays the Christian right-wing which is against abortion, for wars, especially against the Muslim world, for anarcho-capitalism and so on is strong" is wrong?
It isn't wrong so much as irrelevant to this topic.
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