If you're outside time when the universe changes... You stay the same.

[F. King Daniel]

Re: If you're outside time when the universe changes... You stay the s

It could be that some of the powers fighting in the TCW believe otherwise, that there is only one history. Certianly Picard and the Borg Queen believed this in "Yesterday's Enterprise" and "Endgame". Alternately, in "Azati Prime", Daniels shows Archer the Enterprise-J and talks about it as one of many possible futures which the Sphere Builders have seen and are trying to prevent from becoming their future. In TAS' "Yesteryear", Spock wishes Thelin luck in his timeline before going back through the Guardian, implying that that timeline continues on, once Spock has ensured the survival of his younger self.
Or maybe STXI altered the one version of history. The film is fairly ambiguous on the matter. See it however you choose.

I personally, I like the idea that all the timelines we've seen in Trek continue on, from the ruined Earth of "Shockwave" to the Federation/Klingon war of "Yesterday's Enterprise" to the Borgified Earth of "Star Trek: First Contact" to the 25th centuries glimpsed in "All Good Things" and "Endgame". So many possibilities!

EDIT: Oh yeah, and recall that Vosk began the temporal war from an alternate-history WWII ("Storm Front"). And that we saw a whole ton of squiggly timelines in Daniels' temporal observatory in "Cold Front

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: If you're outside time when the universe changes... You stay the s

Perhaps both sets of rules of time travel apply. Meaning: It is possible to change the timeline if you remain in the same universe (i.e. the "Yesterday's Enterprise" method), but it is also possible to travel to the past or future of an entirely different universe (the ST XI method), make changes, and not affect the original.

Here I am making a distinction between alternate timeline and alternate universe, of course.

 

[shapeshifter]

Re: If you're outside time when the universe changes... You stay the s

Perhaps both sets of rules of time travel apply. Meaning: It is possible to change the timeline if you remain in the same universe (i.e. the "Yesterday's Enterprise" method), but it is also possible to travel to the past or future of an entirely different universe (the ST XI method), make changes, and not affect the original.

Here I am making a distinction between alternate timeline and alternate universe, of course.

Agreed. It's just this simple.

 

[Set Harth]

Re: If you're outside time when the universe changes... You stay the s

Surely then given Enterprise is part of the Abramverse canon, this cannot be a branching timeline.

But the branching timeline is also part of Abramsverse canon.

Makes Nero's actions rather pointless though.

But he didn't intend to time-travel either. His actions afterwards can probably be ascribed to the motive of revenge for the most part. He does say that he intends to prevent the destruction of Romulus, but that can be taken either as a reference to the Romulus of the Abrams timeline or as an indication that Nero believes his time-travel worked in a single-timeline fashion.

 

[Pauln6]

Re: If you're outside time when the universe changes... You stay the s

Perhaps both sets of rules of time travel apply. Meaning: It is possible to change the timeline if you remain in the same universe (i.e. the "Yesterday's Enterprise" method), but it is also possible to travel to the past or future of an entirely different universe (the ST XI method), make changes, and not affect the original.

Here I am making a distinction between alternate timeline and alternate universe, of course.

Agreed. It's just this simple.

If everything in past episodes is canon then then they have formalised both forms of time travel. The answer has to be temporal shielding - i.e. if you are protected somehow (and we simply assume that many time travellers are protected as a side effect of whatever caused the time travel) you can change and overwrite the timeline you are in.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: If you're outside time when the universe changes... You stay the s

^ And we have seen 'temporal shielding' in effect a few times:

- ST:FC, when the crew are protected from the changes in the timeline because they are following the Borg sphere and are caught in the 'temporal wake'

- "City on the Edge of Forever". Anyone on the planet with the Guardian is protected from changes made via it.

- TAS "Yesteryear." See above.

 

[UncleRogi]

Re: If you're outside time when the universe changes... You stay the s

WOW

Is anyone else dizzy from all these parodoxes?

After staring at my computer for hours, considering all these out-comes, I arrived at a conclusion:
The Guardian KNOWS all existing timelines;
The traveller simply has to ask the right Question.

 

[Captrek]

Re: If you're outside time when the universe changes... You stay the s

I'm watching the movie right now.

(Halfway through.)


oh!

A flashback in the middle!

Nero went through first.

A technicality.

I was merely saying that it was impossible for them to go through at exactly the same time.

One after the other.

But that's just because Nero's ship had a greater mass, and they're were both trying not to be consumed while playing cat and mouse.

If Nero went through First, then the original time had to still exist for Spock to still be around enough to follow him into the black whole.

Unless emanating fields from the black hole created a natural temporal shield similar to how kirk was immune to changes to the timeline when in proximity to the Guardian of Forever.

Nero and Spock went through the same black hole. If the stern of the Narada can arrive in the same timeline as the bow, then so can Spock.

So those Klingon Battle Cruisers could have followed Costello and Yar on the Enterprise C through that timey Wimey event back to Narendra III?

Suppose the Jellyfish is inside the Narada when the Narada goes into the black hole. Then Spock and the Jellyfish would end up in the same universe and timeline as the Narada and everything else inside the Narda, including Nero. Correct?

Suppose the Jellyfish isn’t inside the Narada, but is behind the Narada, towed by a tether.

Suppose it’s not a tether. It’s a tractor beam.

Suppose the tractor beam goes off and on during the trip through the “tunnel through spacetime.”

Suppose there is no tractor beam at all, but the Jellyfish closely follows the Narada into the tunnel.

Suppose the Jellyfish is two seconds behind the Narada going into the tunnel, but arrives in the new timeline three seconds after the Narada.

Suppose the Jellyfish arrives in the new timeline not three seconds, but four seconds after the Narada. Suppose it’s ten seconds. A minute. An hour. A day. 25 years.

Is there an impossible step?

 

[Pauln6]

Re: If you're outside time when the universe changes... You stay the s

Nero and Spock went through the same black hole. If the stern of the Narada can arrive in the same timeline as the bow, then so can Spock.

So those Klingon Battle Cruisers could have followed Costello and Yar on the Enterprise C through that timey Wimey event back to Narendra III?

Suppose the Jellyfish is inside the Narada when the Narada goes into the black hole. Then Spock and the Jellyfish would end up in the same universe and timeline as the Narada and everything else inside the Narda, including Nero. Correct?

Suppose the Jellyfish isn’t inside the Narada, but is behind the Narada, towed by a tether.

Suppose it’s not a tether. It’s a tractor beam.

Suppose the tractor beam goes off and on during the trip through the “tunnel through spacetime.”

Suppose there is no tractor beam at all, but the Jellyfish closely follows the Narada into the tunnel.

Suppose the Jellyfish is two seconds behind the Narada going into the tunnel, but arrives in the new timeline three seconds after the Narada.

Suppose the Jellyfish arrives in the new timeline not three seconds, but four seconds after the Narada. Suppose it’s ten seconds. A minute. An hour. A day. 25 years.

Is there an impossible step?

Yes and the jellyfish could end up in a universe with a different Nero from a different but largely identical future. I dislike the branching/many worlds theory because infinite possible futures must include every possible time travel eventuality too. For this reason, the temporal police are entirely superfluous.

 

[FarStrider]

Re: If you're outside time when the universe changes... You stay the s

Yes and the jellyfish could end up in a universe with a different Nero from a different but largely identical future. I dislike the branching/many worlds theory because infinite possible futures must include every possible time travel eventuality too. For this reason, the temporal police are entirely superfluous.

They were totally superfluous when they were introduced in the shows to begin with. . .basically a mechanism to keep the status quo of no character growth or change or even danger. . . so yay for making them even more superfluous!


~FS

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: If you're outside time when the universe changes... You stay the s

Even if any time traveller merely finds themself in a branching alterate history, surely it's just as wrong to condemn the inhabitants of Branching Timeline #631 to the rule of Evil Time Traveller X as it would be to allow them to take over Timelime #1 in a single-stream universe? Alternate people are people, too. Thus, time police AREN'T superfluous at all.

 

[Captrek]

Re: If you're outside time when the universe changes... You stay the s

Trek is full of stories about how it's against the rules to change history, but if you accidentally change it you have to change it back.

It would be interesting to see a story where the heroes accidentally interfere in history and change it for the better. They return to find a present where peace and prosperity reign, and the Federation spans the alpha quadrant. Familiar nasty empires like the Klingons, Romulans, and Cardassians have either fallen, become responsible galactic citizens, or been reduced to small spheres of influence. Do the heroes keep this better future, or are they compelled to restore the "proper" history?

The Trek way to play it would probably be that the paradise turns out to have some dark underside that provides the driving tension for the heroes to restore history.

 

[Set Harth]

Re: If you're outside time when the universe changes... You stay the s

And we call it boredom.

 

[MacLeod]

Re: If you're outside time when the universe changes... You stay the s

I would just like to say first, I hate Temporal mechanics.

But with Spock Prime about he can give Starfleet the formula for Red Matter, so in a hundred year or so when the star goes Nova, Starfleet can be there in time to stop the destruction of Romulus. Therfore Nero would never travel back in time and destroy Vulcan but if that didn't happen starfleet wouldn't arrive in time.

 

[Pauln6]

Re: If you're outside time when the universe changes... You stay the s

Even if any time traveller merely finds themself in a branching alterate history, surely it's just as wrong to condemn the inhabitants of Branching Timeline #631 to the rule of Evil Time Traveller X as it would be to allow them to take over Timelime #1 in a single-stream universe? Alternate people are people, too. Thus, time police AREN'T superfluous at all.

Oh but they are! Did Year of Hell teach you nothing? Multiply that by a near infinite number of Anorax changing history in a near infinite number of combinations for all eternity. Which one do you police? Of course you might also have a near infinite number of Braxtons to play with but for every Braxton there will be a near infinite number of successes and failures and which Braxton takes precedence in any particular timeline? I suppose interventions are to prevent individual time travellers from profiting rather than to prevent particular outcomes. After all, there will be billions of borgified Earths out there so what's one more?

Moments in time are exactly that. You have to have pretty major butterfly effects to create any significant ripples and realistically, the human race will be extinct in a few million years anyway. Why is Nero's destruction of Vulcan more significant than the billions of timelines where they never found logic and destroyed themselves? It's a lot of fuss about nothing really. The Temporal Police really are superfluous. I think they were set up by Marvin the Paranoid Android just to relieve his boredom.

 

[Set Harth]

Re: If you're outside time when the universe changes... You stay the s

Therfore Nero would never travel back in time and destroy Vulcan but if that didn't happen starfleet wouldn't arrive in time.

That fails to make sense because it ignores the branching time travel. "NuNero" not traveling back in time wouldn't erase things that had already happened in the Abramsverse timeline by that point, such as Spock Prime giving the information necessary for Starfleet to save Romulus. If "NuNero" were to travel back in time the same way Prime Nero did, he would go to yet another universe.

It's also possible he does destroy Hobus first but it isn't depicted in the film.

It's possible there are worlds in the immediate vicinity of Hobus, with Romulan subjects on them, that would take a nontrivial amount of time to evacuate.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: If you're outside time when the universe changes... You stay the s

Even if any time traveller merely finds themself in a branching alterate history, surely it's just as wrong to condemn the inhabitants of Branching Timeline #631 to the rule of Evil Time Traveller X as it would be to allow them to take over Timelime #1 in a single-stream universe? Alternate people are people, too. Thus, time police AREN'T superfluous at all.

Oh but they are! Did Year of Hell teach you nothing? Multiply that by a near infinite number of Anorax changing history in a near infinite number of combinations for all eternity. Which one do you police? Of course you might also have a near infinite number of Braxtons to play with but for every Braxton there will be a near infinite number of successes and failures and which Braxton takes precedence in any particular timeline? I suppose interventions are to prevent individual time travellers from profiting rather than to prevent particular outcomes. After all, there will be billions of borgified Earths out there so what's one more?

Moments in time are exactly that. You have to have pretty major butterfly effects to create any significant ripples and realistically, the human race will be extinct in a few million years anyway. Why is Nero's destruction of Vulcan more significant than the billions of timelines where they never found logic and destroyed themselves? It's a lot of fuss about nothing really. The Temporal Police really are superfluous. I think they were set up by Marvin the Paranoid Android just to relieve his boredom.

So they should just give up because a task is ultimately futile? Should they stop trying to cure cancer now, because the human race is doomed in the long-run anyway?

Can you really turn your back on suffering if they're "just another timeline"?

Also keep in mind that the multiverse branches for every possible outcome of any event - thus the time cops are split/duplicated for every outcome past the point at which they're dropped into the past. So the time cop/villain ratio is effectively the same as it would be in a single-stream universe.

 

[Pauln6]

Re: If you're outside time when the universe changes... You stay the s

So they should just give up because a task is ultimately futile? Should they stop trying to cure cancer now, because the human race is doomed in the long-run anyway?

Can you really turn your back on suffering if they're "just another timeline"?

Also keep in mind that the multiverse branches for every possible outcome of any event - thus the time cops are split/duplicated for every outcome past the point at which they're dropped into the past. So the time cop/villain ratio is effectively the same as it would be in a single-stream universe.

They CAN'T give up because we are being shown the universe where they DON'T give up. I'm just saying that this is one of the reasons why I dislike many worlds theory. I'm one of those dull people that loves to see how a clever pre-destination paradox works out (hence I really like the movie Twelve Monkeys and Time's Arrow).

Having said that, I do love the Mirror Universe hijinks - I just dislike the wider implications - and I do think that if many worlds was common knowledge it would indeed lead to quite a lot of fatalism and possibly even nihilism among some factions.

 

[E-DUB]

Re: If you're outside time when the universe changes... You stay the s

There's no question that it's a big mess. My personal inclination is that changes to the timeline only propagate forward from the moment they're made. This resolves the "Grandfather Paradox". You kill your grandfather, you come forward to an alternate timeline where you were never born, but you're grandfather is still dead and you still exist, because you're from a timeline where your grandfather lived to sire progeny.

I've applied this to Star Trek with a theory that in the original timeline the NX-01 was named Dauntless, but that the events of "First Contact" caused Cochrane to leave instructions that it be named "Enterprise". Voyager, it's crew and memory banks were unaffected by this change because, by remarkable coincidence, they were further in the past when that change occurred, as depicted in the episode "Future's End".

This is supported by the Borg Queen saying in "First Contact": "Watch your 'Future's End'".

 

[UFO]

Re: If you're outside time when the universe changes... You stay the s

So they should just give up because a task is ultimately futile? Should they stop trying to cure cancer now, because the human race is doomed in the long-run anyway?

Can you really turn your back on suffering if they're "just another timeline"?

Also keep in mind that the multiverse branches for every possible outcome of any event - thus the time cops are split/duplicated for every outcome past the point at which they're dropped into the past. So the time cop/villain ratio is effectively the same as it would be in a single-stream universe.

Not sure I follow this. When a time cop goes back to try to correct something they will just be creating one or more extra universes with the same issues as the original. They will not be solving the original problem (whatever it was). Now if there is a chance they won't be able solve the problem in the new universe they created, then they're just making things worse. They would be better off not trying to fix anything! This would seem to make time cops worse than superfluous.