Political systems in Star Trek

[Count Zero]

Ok, it seems I'm a bit late to the party, but I didn't expect this thread to be so thoroughly derailed (and utterly Godwinned to boot), silly me.

You are a postmodern relativistic sicko who defends necrophilia and denies that there are universal truths like human rights.

The general rule on this board is: attack the post, not the poster. So please refrain from using insults like this in the future. As this was relatively mild and you haven't got a history of doing this, I'll let it slide this time. Next time, there will be a warning, though.

Comments - should you have any - to PM, please.

And this addition to your post shows you're the one who either has no problem employing straw-men or who can't read properly a thread, mr. 5 year old.

In a similar vein, please tone it down a little. Personal jabs like that tend to lead to the discussion becoming more heated and personal.

It would be nice if the thread would return to the original topic. As fascinating as the debate about postmodernism and relativism is, I feel it's better served in Miscellaneous or The Neutral Zone.

 

[Rojixus]

First off horatio, you cannot be a PD dogmatist and claim that there is a universal ethics system for both humans and non-humans alike, the two things are fundamentally opposed to each other. As long as no coercion or intimidation or any other form of force is involved, a sentient being should be free to do what they wish.

As for the political system of the Federation, it would be a mistake to believe that a state would remain static and unchanging for two hundred years. The Federation of Kirk's day might have been more of a confederation than anything. Just because something is called a federation doesn't mean it has to be one in practice. The federation part may have been used to address a political ideal that did not come to fruition until the 24th century. In the 24th century, the Federation looks to be more cohesive than the one in the 23rd century.

I would liken this to the United States before and after the Civil War. Before the Civil War, most Americans identified themselves by their home state and the federal government was relatively weak. After the Civil War, the federal government became far more prominent in the lives of ordinary Americans than before. By the time we get to the 20th and 21st century, it is radically apparent which entity is dominant vis a vis the federal and state governments.

 

[horatio83]

I only claimed that there are universal human values. Interspecies ethics are totally different. If we tried to force our principles upon the Klingons total war would break out, hence the need for the Prime Directive.
About your second point, I totally agree that the Federation becomes more centralized over time.

 

[Paradon]

So going by what you are saying we should start a war whenever we feel like it...when they don't agree with our value? There were so many unecessary wars in the past-and today; it's rediculous. You think bombing them is a better way to get their attention and make them listen?

If you asked me, getting involve seems to cause all these genocides and unrests in the developing nations. Every time western nations got involve, it seemed to make it 100 times worse for the native.

 

[horatio83]

So going by what you are saying we should not try to prevent a genocide?

 

[Count Zero]

Guys, please get back on topic.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

As for the political system of the Federation, it would be a mistake to believe that a state would remain static and unchanging for two hundred years. The Federation of Kirk's day might have been more of a confederation than anything.

I don't think it was. There is no evidence that any drastic changes in the Federation took place in all the shows we've seen. They have always been just what we saw they are: a massive interplanetary state, made up of hundreds of member worlds.

 

[Paradon]

One thing I don't understand why they always use human ships against the Dominion? Would this suggest the Federation is more of a confederate? We've heard them mention Vulcan ships on DS9 and TNG.

 

[Sci]

One thing I don't understand why they always use human ships against the Dominion? Would this suggest the Federation is more of a confederate? We've heard them mention Vulcan ships on DS9 and TNG.

What makes you think those were "human" ships?

Presumably a "Vulcan ship" would be a ship registered to the Vulcan government or a Vulcan-owned civilian ship. But ships of the Federation Starfleet are owned by neither, nor are they owned by the United Earth government or Human civilians. They're Federation starships, not Human ships.

 

[T'Girl]

They're just ships with overtly Human names, that were (seemingly) largely built in Earth's solar system, and have (with notable exceptions) mostly Human captains and command crews.

The ship's hull markings use Latin lettering, English spelling, and Arabic numerals.

Yes Paradon, how could you possible think they were "Human Ships?"

-----------

Likely they were just that, Earth/Human (owned as property) ships being employed for Federation missions. And in the case you sighted, for the Federation's collective defense.
.

 

[Sci]

They're just ships with overtly Human names,

Depends on the ship you're talking about. Ships named after adjectives certainly need not be considered to have "Human" names -- it's more than plausible that the universal translator renders the U.S.S. Enterprise or U.S.S. Defiant into non-Human languages quite easily. Maybe the Vulcans know them as the U.S.S. ShriKarshal and the U.S.S. KahrDran.

And then there are ships like the Nebula-class U.S.S. T'Kumbra, which obviously is not a Human name.

that were (seemingly) largely built in Earth's solar system,

There have been plenty of references to shipyards outside of the Sol system, including the Antares Ship Yards (where the Defiant was launched), the 40 Eridani A Starfleet Construction Yards, the Beta Antares Ship Yards (whence came the U.S.S. Prometheus), and the Proxima Maintenance Yards.

and have (with notable exceptions) mostly Human captains and command crews.

We've seen a grand total of 4 Federation Starfleet crews out of a fleet that DS9 made clear has hundreds and hundreds of ships. There is, in other words, no real data on what percentage of Starfleet is made up of Humans.

The ship's hull markings use Latin lettering, English spelling, and Arabic numerals.

Yes, English seems to be used as Federation Standard when the UFP needs to stick to one language. (Assuming, of course, that the UT isn't just translating those hull markings for us the way it does speech. ) That is not evidence of United Earth ownership.

Likely they were just that, Earth/Human (owned as property) ships being employed for Federation missions.

The problem with this is that they've been explicitly referred to as Federation starships belonging to the Federation Starfleet. No mention made of belonging to the United Earth government.

 

[horatio83]

The real-world reason for all of this is that ship names are Tolkienesque, i.e. the name comes first and says something about the character.
This does not work with a fictional language. You also don't want to put hieroglyphs (that's what a written alien language would be for the audience) on the hull of ships for the sake of realism and at the cost of intelligibility.

About predominantly human crews, we also know the real-world reason for this, budgets and drama. Sure, since DS9 it was financially feasible to show a lot of aliens but dramatically it might be overwhelming to have seven main characters from seven different species aboard. The 4/5 out of 8/9 in DS9 and VOY sufficed IMO to demonstrate that this is not a "homo sapiens only club".

About Federation ships being human ships, I know that it is a pretty weak argument but ENT's last episode suggested that the Daedalus class was the first joined-project of the four species. It looks very unlike the NX-01 and it can reach a higher warp factor, not coincidentally the maximum warp factor of Vulcan ships.

 

[Paradon]

Aren't the ships of SF of human design? We see even early on when the Federation hasn't even been form yet on "Enterprise" that human use ship with similar design as seen in the 23rd and 24th century.

 

[Sci]

Aren't the ships of SF of human design?

This has never been canonically established one way or the other, except insofar as most Federation Starfleet starships have been referred to as having been designed by teams, not single individuals.

We see even early on when the Federation hasn't even been form yet on "Enterprise" that human use ship with similar design as seen in the 23rd and 24th century.

There are certainly some similarities between the NX class United Earth Starfleet (UESF) starships and later Federation Starfleet (FSF) starships, but that doesn't mean that FSF starships are Human designs. For one thing, the idea of a ventral hull seems to have been adapted from the Vulcans -- the 22nd Century Suurak class has what looks like a primitive ventral hull whereas the UESF's NX-class ship remains quite flat. The Suurak-class hull is also cylindrical, like the engineering hull of later FSF Constitution-class starships, as is the hull of the Andorian Kumari-class; one or both may have inspired the "engineering section" design that became so common to later FSF starships.

And, of course, who knows what kinds of heritages the internal systems of FSF starships might have? For all we know, FSF starships may have used Tellarite computer systems until Richard Daystorm invented deutronics, and isolinear systems may have been developed by Denobulans, and Federation transporter systems may owe far more to 22nd Century Andorian transporters than to 22nd Century Earth transporters.

 

[T'Girl]

They're just ships with overtly Human names,

Depends on the ship you're talking about. Ships named after adjectives certainly need not be considered to have "Human" names

The majority of Starfleet ship names have been Human proper names. Human family names, city names, river names, mythical figures, historical figures, Earth animals and insects. Only a few (proportionally) have been generic names.

it's more than plausible that the universal translator renders the U.S.S. Enterprise or U.S.S. Defiant into non-Human languages quite easily.

The display wall in the Enterprise's observation lounge had a collection of Human naval ships and starships. The USS Enterprise wasn't named for a basic concept, it was named for a lineage of Human ships.

And then there are ships like the Nebula-class U.S.S. T'Kumbra, which obviously is not a Human name.

The exception that help point out the prevalence of Human names. T'Kumbra (and the Vulcan ships during ENT) also illustrate that while the TOS ship Intrepid was crewed by Vulcans, unlike the other Vulcans ships, the Intrepid didn't have a Vulcan name. Why wasn't it named for the Vulcan language word for "intrepid?"

that were (seemingly) largely built in Earth's solar system,

There have been plenty of references to shipyards outside of the Sol system, including the Antares Ship Yards (where the Defiant was launched) ...

The Defiant was developed at the Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards. The E-D was developed and built there, the Voyager was built there. The NX was built in Earth orbit, and the TOS Enterprise was (non-canon) built in Earth orbit.

We've seen a grand total of 4 Federation Starfleet crews out of a fleet that DS9 made clear has hundreds and hundreds of ships.

Two of Riker's former captains were Human. The captain of Doctor Pulaski's previous ship was Human. USS Sutherland's first officer was Human. Troi's Starfleet officer father was Human. One of Sisko's former captains was Human, the same with Janeway. Jellico was Human.

Likely they were just that, Earth/Human (owned as property) ships being employed for Federation missions.

The problem with this is that they've been explicitly referred to as Federation starships belonging to the Federation Starfleet.

Think of the Standing NATO Maritime Groups (there are two), these groups are a permanently established multinational force made up of naval vessels from various allied countries, under NATO operational command.

These naval vessels, while attach to a group, are referred to as "NATO warships." Ships are usually attached to the force for up to six months, on a rotating basis, that doesn't mean that the NATO member permanently loses them, they are simply assign to a multinational task force.

Just as those ship are NATO warships while attached to a group, Earth ships would be Federation Starships while on Federation assignments.

Kirk would refer to the Enterprise as a Earth starship on some missions, and a Federation starship on others. Likely depending on who the mission was for.

 

[Sci]

They're just ships with overtly Human names,

Depends on the ship you're talking about. Ships named after adjectives certainly need not be considered to have "Human" names

The majority of Starfleet ship names have been Human proper names.

That we've seen. But, once again, we've only ever seen a very small percentage of the fleet -- there are hundreds and hundreds of Federation starships we've never seen or heard of. We've just never seen enough about Starfleet to make a conclusion like that.

The display wall in the Enterprise's observation lounge had a collection of Human naval ships and starships. The USS Enterprise wasn't named for a basic concept, it was named for a lineage of Human ships.

And who's to say what lineage the U.S.S. Republic or the U.S.S. Excelsior were named for?

The exception that help point out the prevalence of Human names. T'Kumbra (and the Vulcan ships during ENT) also illustrate that while the TOS ship Intrepid was crewed by Vulcans, unlike the other Vulcans ships, the Intrepid didn't have a Vulcan name. Why wasn't it named for the Vulcan language word for "intrepid?"

Is there any reason to think it wasn't? Remember, there's that Universal Translator thing at work, making alien languages intelligible to us audience members. It's entirely possible that the ship's actual name was "U.S.S. Yel'Shar" and that "Intrepid" is just the handy translation given to us by the Universal Translator.

The Defiant was developed at the Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards.

And launched from Antares.

Two of Riker's former captains were Human. The captain of Doctor Pulaski's previous ship was Human. USS Sutherland's first officer was Human. Troi's Starfleet officer father was Human. One of Sisko's former captains was Human, the same with Janeway. Jellico was Human.

Congratulations, you've described a dozen crews out of at least one thousand, if not more. Surely 1.2% is a representative sample.

Likely they were just that, Earth/Human (owned as property) ships being employed for Federation missions.

The problem with this is that they've been explicitly referred to as Federation starships belonging to the Federation Starfleet.

Think of the Standing NATO Maritime Groups (there are two), these groups are a permanently established multinational force made up of naval vessels from various allied countries, under NATO operational command.

These naval vessels, while attach to a group, are referred to as "NATO warships."

The problem with that is that Star Trek IV directly establishes that Federation Starfleet starships are "Federation property." Not, "United Earth property attached to Federation service." "Federation property."

Federation Starfleet, Federation starships, Federation property. Not Earth.

 

[T'Girl]

The majority of Starfleet ship names have been Human proper names.

That we've seen. But, once again, we've only ever seen a very small percentage of the fleet -- there are hundreds and hundreds of Federation starships we've never seen or heard of. We've just never seen enough about Starfleet to make a conclusion like that.

We've been given the names of over 250 Starfleet starships. And in that representational sampling, the vast majority of Starfleet ships have been given Human/Earth names.

And who's to say what lineage the U.S.S. Republic or the U.S.S. Excelsior were named for?

Excelsior, given that it's written in "Human script" on the hull, likley means "Even Higher." Also The Great Seal of the Empire State bears the word Excelsior prominately. Many US Navy ships are tied to American cities and states through their names, the USS Excelsior may be tied to New York State.

Republic, in it's original Italian usage, the term (in Latin) res publica translated as "public affair" or "public matter." And what a nice name for a ship too, the USS Public Affair, both Italian and Latin are Human languages by the way.

If the Tellar culture has something analogous to "republic," even if it were to be painted on a hull using Roman lettering, wouldn't it be spelled (phonetically perhaps) in the Tellar language?

Why wasn't it named for the Vulcan language word for "intrepid?"

It's entirely possible that the ship's actual name was "U.S.S. Yel'Shar" and that "Intrepid" is just the handy translation given to us by the Universal Translator.

If the Vulcan ship in The Immunity Syndrome was the "Yel'Shar," why were the Enterprise officers, when speaking to each other, referring to it as the Intrepid?

Is there any reason to think it wasn't? Remember, there's that Universal Translator thing at work ...

Would a universal translator program translate a Vulcan proper name, a ship name at all? The Vulcan ships D'Vahl, D'Kyr, Tal'Kyr, Sh'Ran (from ENT) did not have translated names. Archer and T'Pol both used the Vulcan form of names.

The ship T'Kumbra did not have a translation of it's name, it would appear to be a Vulcan female name by it's form. Most people's names have meanings. David is beloved, Franklin is free man, Juan is God is gracious, Heitor is holding fast. Would a universal translator program translate these?

... former captains were Human ...

Congratulations, you've described a dozen crews out of at least one thousand ...

It is the representative sampling that we've been given, the representation of Starfleet captains are that they are mostly Human. There is a "block" if you will, of starships with Earth/Human names, mostly Human command crew, and mostly Human crews in general. Do non-Humans serve on Earth/Human ships? Sure they do. And the opposite is true as well.

And it's not a case of Human crews in Earth atmospheres, because it was established that many of the Federation member species are quite comfortable in each others climates.

If you go aboard a American warship there are people from literally every part of the country. And there are sometime people in the enlisted crew from foreign countries, but they are very rare. (just like on Human named Starships)

It almost like the Human named starships were part of a separate fleet. The only clear example of a integrated multi-species command crew was the Defiant, and even there the majority of the people "below decks" were Human.

The Defiant was developed at the Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards.

And launched from Antares.

While by law all American warship have be built in American shipyards, our shipyards build naval vessels for several foreign nations. Even through they are built here, they are the property of the purchaser.

Star Trek IV directly establishes that Federation Starfleet starships are "Federation property."

But that statement came from a politician, so we can dismiss it.

 

[horatio83]

Star Trek IV directly establishes that Federation Starfleet starships are "Federation property."

But that statement came from a politician, so we can dismiss it.

Ignoring the stupid generalization, in this instance the Federation President lists the charges against Kirk. Chances of him lying are zero.

 

[Sci]

The majority of Starfleet ship names have been Human proper names.

That we've seen. But, once again, we've only ever seen a very small percentage of the fleet -- there are hundreds and hundreds of Federation starships we've never seen or heard of. We've just never seen enough about Starfleet to make a conclusion like that.

We've been given the names of over 250 Starfleet starships. And in that representational sampling,

That is far too small to be a representative sampling.

Excelsior, given that it's written in "Human script" on the hull,

Is it written in Human script? Or is the Universal Translator just being nice to us audience members?

Besides, that doesn't mean anything. If the Federation's official language had been Vulcan and had featured starships with Vulcan script, that doesn't mean that every Starfleet vessel would be property of the Vulcan government.

Similarly, if a vessel of the Royal Canadian Navy has its name written in French, that doesn't mean that ship is the property of the Province of Quebec. I promise you -- HMCS Ville de Québec is not actually Québécois property.

(And, by the same token, HMCS Calgary is not the property of the Province of Alberta, just because it has an Alberta name. )

Republic, in it's original Italian usage, the term (in Latin)

Italian and Latin are separate languages.

res publica translated as "public affair" or "public matter."

Yes. And today, the term is used to describe a sovereign state that does not use a monarchy. For all we know, maybe "Republic" is just the Universal Translator giving us audience members the English translation of its actual, Tellarite, name.

Another possibility is that it has co-equal names in different languages. To make a modern comparison: Puerto Rico's full legal name in English is "the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico," but in Spanish, its full legal name is Estado Libre Asociado de Puerto Rico. Estado Libre Asociado is used rather than an exact equivalent to "Commonwealth," because Spanish has no exact translation for that term; instead, they use a phrase that means, "Free Associated State." Neither name is more or less official than the other -- both are equally valid.

Either way, we don't know enough to assume that ships like "Republic" have an explicitly Human name.

If the Tellar culture has something analogous to "republic," even if it were to be painted on a hull using Roman lettering, wouldn't it be spelled (phonetically perhaps) in the Tellar language?

We never saw the U.S.S. Republic, only heard it referred to by Human characters. It's entirely possible that that's exactly what happened.

If the Vulcan ship in The Immunity Syndrome was the "Yel'Shar," why were the Enterprise officers, when speaking to each other, referring to it as the Intrepid?

We don't know that they were. That UT is a tricky thing -- you might as well ask why we keep seeing Cardassians speaking amongst themselves on Cardassia Prime in English.

It is the representative sampling that we've been given,

It's not a representative sample if it's that small. A sample where N=12 is too small to be statistically valid in any sense of the term. So we can't draw any conclusions one way or the other about how dominant Humans are in the Federation Starfleet.

And launched from Antares.

While by law all American warship have be built in American shipyards, our shipyards build naval vessels for several foreign nations. Even through they are built here, they are the property of the purchaser.

Except that the Antares yards is a Federation yard, not foreign.

Star Trek IV directly establishes that Federation Starfleet starships are "Federation property."

But that statement came from a politician, so we can dismiss it.

That statement is so monumentally full of shit that I'm sure people can smell it on Luna.

Federation Starfleet starships were explicitly established to be Federation property in Admiral Kirk's court-martial. This was a judicial proceeding, not a campaign stop. If they say they're Federation property, not Earth property, then they're Federation property, not Earth property.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Love the smiles.