The Starship Vs. thread!
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Really? Their weapons aren't more powerful, and their ship aren't faster than the fastest Starfleet ship, and their shields are demonstrated to be weaker than Starfleet's right from the start.
Where are you getting better power generation by the Borg?
There no indication of this. Again, turbo or not, all the Empire has are "lasers." The Empire's main weapon is something the Federation left behind in favor of a superior weapon, the phaser.
Other than they can be seen in a vacuum, how are they different? We can currently use lasers to destroy tanks and aircraft. The only thing preventing military deployment is making it (and it's power supply) mobile. This is apparently the only advantage the Empire has accomplished. Current lasers can impart heating and vibration upon rocks and cause them to explode. Big enough and the Death Star could do the same to a planet.
Likely if the Death Star were to fire it's main weapon at a Starship with raised shields there would be no effect. Because lasers are stopped by Starfleet shields.
Starfleet has a variation of a shield that will shield a ship literally inside of a star, so the direct heating effect of the Death Star's big laser isn't a threat, and the vibration effects of a laser would not reach the hull of the ship.
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As much as I avoid SW vs. ST threads, they always turn into a giant honeypot,
I have to chime in on the turbolaser issue. I read somewhere, I don't know if it was the SW: Extended Universe or not, that the turbolasers were not lasers at all, but massively sized particle based weaponry, blasters for all intents and purposes.The E-D was not able to power away from the Borg tractor beam. The E-D was unable to outrun the Borg ship in the first encounter in "Q Who?". That episode was the first to show how disadvantaged the Feds were in a one on one encounter.
Does Starfleet field any weapons capable of damaging an entire star system (with the exception of blowing up a star) ?
Was there any Federation ship able to outrun a Borg ship in pursuit?
SW turbolasers appear as bolts of energy over a short distance, not a continuous beam. That's not very laser-like.
That would be highly unlikely. Energy is energy and we know that shields will give out at some point if you pour enough energy into it. If it's enough energy to blow up a planet, it's more than enough energy to blow up a shielded starship. When has a Federation ship withstood that much raw energy?
You're talking about the Metaphasic shield. Oddly enough, that isn't used much in combat scenarios. In a ST v SW scenario, sure it could be thrown in but it'd be an unknown if it would work.
Pretty much there are lots of unknowns. How effective ST weapons are on SW shields and materials and vice-versa. We can only derive a rough guess on relative firepower and even then there are still some unknowns.
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Captain Kirk and Captain Sheridan both beat he Empire in their respective ships
It's what they do, win in battle
Next Genny captains, no so much, maybe Sisko
It's what they do, win in battle
Next Genny captains, no so much, maybe Sisko
As much as I love B5, I have to disagree on one point. Unless Sheridan is in a Whitestar or the Excalibur, he isn't going to beat a Federation starship or an Emperial SD with an Omega class destroyer. Even I have no illusions there. Here's an interesting scenario though, Whitestar, with ace crew vs. Defiant with Sisko and company at the helm. Lots of wild manuevers insue.
The Enterprise isn't Starfleet's fastest ship, and the borg only gradually overtook her. Voyager and Prometheus are faster.
Sure they do, the Genesis Device. Wipes the surface clean of enemy personnel and all installations. Leaves behind lush fields and pretty flowers. I'd imagine it would do the same to a Death Star.
Lasers can be turned on and off.
And shields stop laser energy.
And during the Klingon civil war, multiple Birds of Prey, with similar shield to regular Starfleet shields, flew low over the surface of a star. So standard shields can also handle extreme energy. When did we ever see (on screen) a Death Star fire for any duration?
In the movie Return of the Jedi, two small fighter, firing lasers, destroyed the bridge deflector emitter on a SSD. Using lasers. How can shields protect Imperial ships, when they can protect the emitters themselves from the tiny lasers on a "snub" fighter?
How do we know Voyager and Prometheus are faster than a Borg cube? Which episode was that shown to be the case?
That's on a planetary scale. As shown in "The Die Is Cast", a moderate size Romulan/Cardassian fleet can also blast away the surface of a planet and in "Broken Link" the Defiant was said to be able to affect similar levels of damage to a planet. And to the same extent, the old TOS Enterprise probably could have as well, based on "A Taste of Armageddon".
But a star system wide explosive like the one described in "Scorpion" that can affect several light years?
But, I indicated before though, Starfleet could always blow up a star with photon torpedoes (and a little bit of protomatter.)
I've never been a been able to spot with the naked eye a short bolt of laser light cruising by at a few hundred meters per second. Have you?
And stop phaser and photon torpedo energy. But there will be an upper limit to how much the shields can withstand. Otherwise, they'd be flying into solar eruptions all the time
Right, in "Redemption", Kurn's BOP (with Worf onboard) and 2 attacking Klingon ships flew into a star's corona. Kurn's shields eventually failed but he warped out in the nick of time. The warping away of Kurn's ship caused an eruption which took out the attackers.
The problem here is that the Death Star is delivering potentially alot more energy in a shorter period of time than just taking a 30 second stroll in a star's corona. It's probably more energy than that of a solar eruption - which we've not seen any ship in ST, Borg or Klingon, to be able to withstand.
In the movie Return of the Jedi, two small fighter, firing lasers, destroyed the bridge deflector emitter on a SSD. Using lasers. How can shields protect Imperial ships, when they can protect the emitters themselves from the tiny lasers on a "snub" fighter?
Now you're arguing SW vs SW. I've pointed that out already that to take out a SD, just target the exposed shield emitters and then follow up on the bridge.
In theory, that's what a ST ship can do as well.
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No.
It depends ENTIRELY on who is on the ship and their disposition in their respective universe. Offensive/defensive capabilities will determine the shape of the battle, but only the character's last name determines the outcome.
This is true in both Star Wars AND Star Trek; any Federation starship will be inevitably destroyed by any Rebel or Imperial fighter if it is piloted by someone named "Skywalker." OTOH, they might fight each other to a stalemate if the Federation ship is named "Enterprise" or "Defiant" and is captained by someone named "Kirk" or "Picard" or "Sisko." The only exception to this rule is Janeway, but only because her deft use of the technobabble reset button means she can get blown to bits and still somehow come out without a scratch.
In the movie Return of the Jedi, two small fighter, firing lasers, destroyed the bridge deflector emitter on a SSD. Using lasers. How can shields protect Imperial ships, when they can protect the emitters themselves from the tiny lasers on a "snub" fighter?
Ships in SW use two distinct types of shields, particle shields (for deflecting physical objects like asteroids, warheads etc) and ray shields (for deflecting energy bolts like lasers). Ray shields are said to be considerably more energy consumptive than particle shields and are therefore only used regularly in combat.
Going from that, then, perhaps the Executor's ray shields were depleted or damaged and the fighters just knocked out its remaining particle shields by taking out the dome. Trek shields don't seem to make the same sort of distinction and can block anything.
From dialouge, we know that at the very least the Empire has Ray shielding, The question becomes does it have shields which protect against physical impacts. Judging by the Asteriod scene in TESB it might not.
If that is the case, all a ST ship would have to do is stand say a light minute away, and lop a few torpedeos which in theroy could travel at high warp, even at something like Warp 5 ir might cover that distance in a fraction of a second. hard to react to something you don't see coming.
blah... the trek/wars debate is always tiring. it always boils down to how "ubur powerful" the wars weapons are. on another forum site it ended up being called "the gigaton debate".
at any rate i realy don't have anything new to contribute to this old debate so i'm going to offer another ship vs.
from an old anime "gunbuster" there's a ship called the "Exelion" it's 7,205 meters long, 2,295 meters wide, and 1,680 meters high. has a crew of 25,000 and carries 1,200 mecha and 880 fighters. its weapons include approx. 756 laser cannons (can't confirm the exact number) at least 45 photon torpedo silos (cannot confirm exact number, only approx #) its ftl capabilities are like a primitive version of wars ships that allow it to jump up to 3000 parsecs at a time. its engines are also able to accelerate the ship to light speed, although it suffers from the rip van wrinkle effect. i'd think it would give a typical star destroyer a run for its money.
at any rate i realy don't have anything new to contribute to this old debate so i'm going to offer another ship vs.
from an old anime "gunbuster" there's a ship called the "Exelion" it's 7,205 meters long, 2,295 meters wide, and 1,680 meters high. has a crew of 25,000 and carries 1,200 mecha and 880 fighters. its weapons include approx. 756 laser cannons (can't confirm the exact number) at least 45 photon torpedo silos (cannot confirm exact number, only approx #) its ftl capabilities are like a primitive version of wars ships that allow it to jump up to 3000 parsecs at a time. its engines are also able to accelerate the ship to light speed, although it suffers from the rip van wrinkle effect. i'd think it would give a typical star destroyer a run for its money.
^^ Weak..
A standard ultra battleship from Perry Rhodan carries, they're large 2500meter spheres with 60 transform cannons as main weapon, each 6000 Gigaton TNT, they fire every 20 seconds and have a zero flight time, one click is instant death, shields can't stop them they just materialise inside your vessel unless you've got 5D shields, the ships accelerate usually with around 1000g's, they are landing capable and can fly right through a star if needed, power comes from 12 reactor packs with each 8 NUGAS black shield reactors each 225.000 Gigawatt, protection, multiple shields of which a 5D paratron shield is the most important, any energy hitting the shield will be reflected into hyperspace.
Hull material is called Ynkelonium-Terkonit, melting point around 100.000c, its partially resistant to antimatter.
Propulsion in normal space are impulse engine like engines, there is no warpdrive, they use Linear drive which puts the ship inbetween the various dimensions, it can do 35.000 lightyears within 119 hours, a more advanced version was able to propell such a ship to the Sombrero nebula within weeks.
A normal fleet has 20.000 to 40.000 of these ships.
There are one off vessels that are MUCH more powerful than one of these is a 14 kilometer behemoth called BASIS.
Perry Rhodan itself is a written SF series that predates Star Trek by a few years, its the largest SF series in existence with 2700 bi weekly booklets and over 9000 items in total in print.
So hows that for uber tech? with that one ship you can just fly through the death star and whipe out the borg within a lazy afternoon..
A standard ultra battleship from Perry Rhodan carries, they're large 2500meter spheres with 60 transform cannons as main weapon, each 6000 Gigaton TNT, they fire every 20 seconds and have a zero flight time, one click is instant death, shields can't stop them they just materialise inside your vessel unless you've got 5D shields, the ships accelerate usually with around 1000g's, they are landing capable and can fly right through a star if needed, power comes from 12 reactor packs with each 8 NUGAS black shield reactors each 225.000 Gigawatt, protection, multiple shields of which a 5D paratron shield is the most important, any energy hitting the shield will be reflected into hyperspace.
Hull material is called Ynkelonium-Terkonit, melting point around 100.000c, its partially resistant to antimatter.
Propulsion in normal space are impulse engine like engines, there is no warpdrive, they use Linear drive which puts the ship inbetween the various dimensions, it can do 35.000 lightyears within 119 hours, a more advanced version was able to propell such a ship to the Sombrero nebula within weeks.
A normal fleet has 20.000 to 40.000 of these ships.
There are one off vessels that are MUCH more powerful than one of these is a 14 kilometer behemoth called BASIS.
Perry Rhodan itself is a written SF series that predates Star Trek by a few years, its the largest SF series in existence with 2700 bi weekly booklets and over 9000 items in total in print.
So hows that for uber tech? with that one ship you can just fly through the death star and whipe out the borg within a lazy afternoon..
That would be "Caretaker" the pilot episode of Voyager, and "Message in a Bottle" respectively.
The E-D was clocked by Geordi at Warp 9.65 without any external help while running from the Borg in "Q-Who".
In the dialogue of "Caretaker" Lt. Stadi said that Voyager was capable of Warp 9.975.
Dialogue in "Message in a Bottle" says that the USS Prometheus was the fastest starship in the fleet with a crusing speed (not her emergency speed, mind you) of Warp 9.9. Certain non-canon souces attribute a top speed to about Warp 9.99.
The Borg Cube in "Q-Who" and "The Best of Both Worlds" never exceeds Warp 9.7.
Saquist
Commodore
This is a thread I had in mind that deals with the question: Which starship would win in a battle?
The rule is: A poster puts 2 ships (they can be from Star Trek OR Star Wars) against each other. After discussing the outcome, it is someone else's turn to do so!
I will chose one first:
Sovereign-Class starship Vs. Executor-Class Super Star Destroyer... (Ex. Vader's Flagship, or the Lusankya).
many of the star trek vs stars wars debates are pretty standard....yelling bickering screaming and it's mostly hubris.
But there are incredible facts on both sides.
1-the Multi Tera-ton claims are pure conjecture for star wars.
2. star Trek uses heavy planetary devasting firepower but its not a regular rule. Ships seem to fight smartly tech vs. tech.
Therefore the Sovereign might be able to win against the SSD Executor or Lusanky since the Lusankya wnet down to superheated rocks or plasma and nothing else more special but the likely hood is that Sovereign... (as shown in Nemesis) is just plain out gunned even in Trek with not enough fire power to even handle a Reman Super ship what they could it do against the 17 km long SSD...
Hurt it? Sure... But not likely to destroy it with out a considerable fleet effort.
Actually, we do not know how fast the Borg Cube is traveling in order to catch the E-D traveling at Warp 9.65 in "Q Who". But the Cube does catch the E-D. We do not know what the top speed of the Cube is in "Best of Both Worlds" other than they didn't need to go much faster than Warp 9.3.
Voyager and Prometheus ("Message in a Bottle") take place years after "Q Who" and we don't know what improvements to the Borg Cubes have been made other than their use of Transwarp Conduits for faster than warp speed travel.
Voyager is stated to have a "top cruising speed of Warp 9.975". I'm not aware of any scenes where a Borg ship chased Voyager at warp and Voyager got away on speed alone.
Prometheus was clocked at Warp 9.9 heading to the Romulan border but was still caught by a Nebula-class starship. The EMH2 program stated, "This vessel was designed to go faster than anything in the fleet so we'll never be rescued." So in theory, she would be as fast or slightly faster than Voyager. But apparently designed and actual would indicate she's still catchable by a Nebula-class.
So are there any episodes where a Borg Cube failed to chase down Voyager or another "fast" Starfleet ship? Otherwise, faster Starfleet ships as time progresses doesn't equate to being faster than a Borg ship.
Hey, a fellow anime fan. I loved Gunbuster and Diebuster and yes the Exelion could give a SD quite a run for it's money, throw in the Gunbuster mecha and well... bad news for the SD. I always wondered how some of the other ships from anime would fair against ST/SW starships, ones like the SDF Macross or the later New Macross Class Battlecarriers or the much revered Yamato from Space Battleship Yamato. It would be interesting to see how ST/SW shields faired against the wave motion cannon or the macross cannon or how the pin-point/omnidirectional barrier on the Macross ships faired against phasers/turbolasers, I can't remember if the Yamato had shields or not, if not it would be at a lethal disadvantage.
^^^ Fair Enough.
There's no source of information that gives the impression that Dr. Manhattan has any ability anywhere near the weapons range of your average Federation Starship.
There's no source of information that gives the impression that Dr. Manhattan has any ability anywhere near the weapons range of your average Federation Starship.
If you're opening this up to non-on screen material, then the original Star Trek Maps explain that there was a "Cochrane Factor" multiplier which is applied to warp factors, so TOS era starships were actual moving at several hundred thousand times light-speed.
It occurs to me that claims of the speed of the SW ship is base of the size of our galaxy. But the size of the galaxy "far far away" is a unknown. All we know from on screen evidence is that it's a spiral galaxy.
NGC3928 is a spiral galaxy and has a diameter of about 8,000 light years. The Milky Way has a diameter of about 100,000 light years. If the entire SW galaxy were little more in size than the Federation itself, then speed estimates drop considerable.
Problem there is, there's no on screen indication as to how powerful those SW weapons are. We've seen the power of the Death Star to blow up a planet, and we're told that the Death Star's firepower is equivalent to fifty percent of the firepower of all the other ships in the imperial fleet combined.
So the bigger the imperial fleet is, the less firepower each ship possesses. But we have no idea how big the imperial fleet is, but the same goes for Starfleet.
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if the imperial fleet has 100 ships, then each ship has on average 1 percent of the firepower of the Death Star. If the fleet has 10,000 ships, then each ship has 1/100 of 1 percent of the firepower of the Death Star.
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