• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Did Joss ever talk about BUFFY post-S7?

But, hey, at least "Chosen" gave us "Damage," where we did indeed get to see how stupid that decision was. And, god, how did I want to punch Andrew in the face in that episode (though that hadn't changed from every one of his Buffy appearances).

:techman:

So they had already been forced into that world. Having them Called -- and having them Called at all once -- was like forming a union.

So you contact them and educate them and give them a choice. See, most people don't get drafted into a union.

More importantly, most union members don't have the ability to punch through people's heads, don't have the memories of previous union members downloaded into their heads, and can be stopped without calling in the military or supernatural beings if they're criminally violent or a danger to themselves or others.
 
But, hey, at least "Chosen" gave us "Damage," where we did indeed get to see how stupid that decision was. And, god, how did I want to punch Andrew in the face in that episode (though that hadn't changed from every one of his Buffy appearances).

:techman:

So they had already been forced into that world. Having them Called -- and having them Called at all once -- was like forming a union.

So you contact them and educate them and give them a choice.

But why should you "give" them a choice, as though the choice is yours to give? It already belongs to them; having them Called just gives them the power to act on the choice that is already theirs, rather than having to rely on you for permission to make a decision.

Like I said: These people were already involved in the world of magick whether they liked it or not. They were born with targets on their backs simply by virtue of being Potentials. Calling them just gives them more tools; it doesn't impose anything on them.
 
You have an odd definition of choice and acting on it if you consider suddenly having the strength to rip somebody's spine out with no warning, preparation, or ability to refuse a "choice." Again, people don't get drafted into unions (at worst, they can always walk away). It certainly is an imposition - giving them tools would mean explaining the situation and the world they were born into, including the risks (of being Called or not), and allowing them to opt in, not suddenly springing it on them.

And we know that in at least one case, it drove an already-damaged young woman further into psychosis and caused the deaths of multiple humans (not to mention the near-death of one of the only souled vampires), so it's not like there weren't negative effects.
 
You have an odd definition of choice and acting on it if you consider suddenly having the strength to rip somebody's spine out with no warning, preparation, or ability to refuse a "choice." Again, people don't get drafted into unions (at worst, they can always walk away). It certainly is an imposition - giving them tools would mean explaining the situation and the world they were born into, including the risks (of being Called or not), and allowing them to opt in, not suddenly springing it on them.

And we know that in at least one case, it drove an already-damaged young woman further into psychosis and caused the deaths of multiple humans (not to mention the near-death of one of the only souled vampires), so it's not like there weren't negative effects.
Those are two different issues: how good/bad it was for the Potentials to become Slayers, and how good/bad it was other people/the world. Dana was no worse off with powers than without them, it's not the powers that screwed her up. Regarding the choice, I think a Slayer can choose not to use the powers if there are a bunch of other girls with the same powers. This is not the case if there is just one - either she has to follow the calling, or if she refuses, there is nobody with Slayer powers until she dies. I wonder what happened to Slayers who refused their calling (there must have been some over so many centuries, even Buffy was thinking of giving up in Prophecy Girl) - did the Council have them murdered?

Now as to the dangers to the other people - I agree with that, it's very risky to give powers when you don't know who you're giving them to. Simone in season 8 is another example. But come to think of it, it was the same with the Slayer calling over the centuries. It's not like anyone makes a decision who the best candidate is through a screening process; it happens automatically. (Faith in season 3 wasn't the best candidate, either.) For all we know, Dana could have been called just as well if Buffy, Faith and all the Potentials had died in the battle with the First. Then the world would've been even more screwed. Someone would have to kill her or have her clinically dead before another girl is called. And most of those girls died young.

On the other hand, having a greater number of Slayers working together could be a good or a bad thing. The latter when, for instance, Simone and several other Slayers from the Italy squad started acting like local overlords and bullying the local population. This is the danger of having a bunch of superpowered people.

I was always ambivalent about the empowerment spell in Chosen. I don't think it was a bad decision like some do - for starters, it was crucial from the pragmatic point of view, to beat the First; and since the Slayers never choose being called, having them all called at the same time rather than having one girl always face all the pressure makes things much better for them.

But I wasn't too taken with it as a story of female empowerment that it was presented as. It does work to a point - in the sense that I can see it symbolically representing the time when, instead of just "one girl in all the world" (she alone in all her sex, like Virgin Mary), there are more women with power; say, going from having just the Queen, to having more women in positions of power and influence in society. But what it's not is any kind of story about equality or empowerment for women in general. It's a few thousand young, athletic women who get superpowers, and meanwhile what good does it do to the other 3+ billion women in the world? Does it make their lives any better? Maybe it would if the Slayers and Buffy's Slayer Army were having some feminist goals, but they fight demons, they don't get mixed up in human politics (if they did, maybe Voll's fear of them would have been more justified). Not that giving all the women in the world superpowers would have been a good solution, or that it would work for equality, since it would create even more of a gender disbalance in physical strength than there is now. Generally, a story about giving some people superpowers doesn't mash well with ideas about equality and human (women's or other's) rights, so it's probably better not to try to judge them in that context. Which I why the inspirational music and montage in Chosen bugged me.

One of the things I'm grateful to season 8 for (besides retconing Buffy/The Immortal :lol:) is that it did, to an extent, deal with the problems and ambiguities of the empowerment spell.
 
Those are two different issues: how good/bad it was for the Potentials to become Slayers, and how good/bad it was other people/the world. Dana was no worse off with powers than without them, it's not the powers that screwed her up.

I dunno, I think you can make the case that she was worse off - in addition to the wounds she'd received when she was tortured, you now add on the memories of the Slayer line, and we saw how she struggled to integrate them and differentiate reality. And of course the (probable?) guilt when she learns she was responsible for the deaths of multiple people. But overall I agree - Dana was already screwed up because of the shithead that abused her.

Regarding the choice, I think a Slayer can choose not to use the powers if there are a bunch of other girls with the same powers. This is not the case if there is just one - either she has to follow the calling, or if she refuses, there is nobody with Slayer powers until she dies.

It's not like anyone makes a decision who the best candidate is through a screening process; it happens automatically. (Faith in season 3 wasn't the best candidate, either.) For all we know, Dana could have been called just as well if Buffy, Faith and all the Potentials had died in the battle with the First. Then the world would've been even more screwed. Someone would have to kill her or have her clinically dead before another girl is called. And most of those girls died young.

Good points. The thing about the powers though, is what if you have a girl that not only doesn't want to use them, but never wanted to have them in the first place? But good points.

I was always ambivalent about the empowerment spell in Chosen. I don't think it was a bad decision like some do - for starters, it was crucial from the pragmatic point of view, to beat the First; and since the Slayers never choose being called, having them all called at the same time rather than having one girl always face all the pressure makes things much better for them.

No, I think this is a fair point. Saying the decision was "stupid" might've been a bit harsh, especially considering the circumstances, and it was probably on balance a good thing. But saying that it's not manipulative of the Scoobies to drag unknowing Potentials fully into the Slayer world in the same way that the Shdowmen/Watchers did in the first place strikes me as hypocritical.

One of the things I'm grateful to season 8 for (besides retconing Buffy/The Immortal :lol:) is that it did, to an extent, deal with the problems and ambiguities of the empowerment spell.

:techman: Yeah, kudos to Joss. It's okay for me to still want to punch Andrew (and company for not intervening when they could have done some good) in the face at the end of "Damage," right?
 
did he ever talk about season 1 or even 2 and 3? i know he said season 4 was lacking because his time was divided with angel.
 
I heard Joss wanted the finale to be 2 hours but UPN would not order 23 episodes.

Disappointing. My one complaint about "Chosen" is that it feels very, very rushed.

On the contrary, I remember reading at the time it aired that Joss specifically wanted it to be a single hour episode, as a sort of "answer" to the big overblown finales that had become the norm. He wanted something antithesis to that, in a single hour that would, really, be just like any other episode.
 
Having it be an hour didn't bother me. It just felt rushed. Honestly, just an extra few minutes at the end, I think, would have made a huge difference. I had the same problem with the way he ended "The Gift." Buffy dies. Cut to her tombstone. Done. It just happened too fast.
 
I heard Joss wanted the finale to be 2 hours but UPN would not order 23 episodes.

Disappointing. My one complaint about "Chosen" is that it feels very, very rushed.

On the contrary, I remember reading at the time it aired that Joss specifically wanted it to be a single hour episode, as a sort of "answer" to the big overblown finales that had become the norm. He wanted something antithesis to that, in a single hour that would, really, be just like any other episode.
Yeah. The only part that actually felt "rushed" was the scene with the main four. It was as if he just stuffed it in there out of need, but that's more of a critique on the season as a whole than it is that particular episode.
 
Disappointing. My one complaint about "Chosen" is that it feels very, very rushed.

On the contrary, I remember reading at the time it aired that Joss specifically wanted it to be a single hour episode, as a sort of "answer" to the big overblown finales that had become the norm. He wanted something antithesis to that, in a single hour that would, really, be just like any other episode.
Yeah. The only part that actually felt "rushed" was the scene with the main four. It was as if he just stuffed it in there out of need, but that's more of a critique on the season as a whole than it is that particular episode.

it seemed to me that the show distanced itself more and more from the main four post season 3.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top