Long overdue improvements to Starfleet

[Vanyel]

Either ditch or re work that overrated and stupid Prime Directive

Oh yes. I change my vote to this.

I'd rather that Starfleet enforce its Prime Directive more strictly. No more duck blinds. Just leave the planet be until it's intelligent inhabitants die off (intelligent meaning problem solving, like how octopi can unscrew a jar's lid to get to food or how some of the great apes figure out they can reach their food by stacking blocks on each other.) or achieve Warp capabilities.

Use something like the Argus Array (Which took amazing pictures of the Starfleet building yards on Mars) to keep an eye on them from a great distance and make contact once it can be shown they've achieved warp capabilities.

If a Federation Citizen gets stuck on a Non Warp Capable World, he's SOL as would be a member of Starfleet. I say leave them there because they've already caused damage, rescuing them would compound that damage. That might make a good story for a future series. An officer crashes on a NWCW and has to get off that world before he's discovered or his ship gets too faraway for him to reach. Or is that a movie I've seen? It sounds really familiar.

 

[Jonas Grumby]

Either ditch or re work that overrated and stupid Prime Directive

Oh yes. I change my vote to this.

Sign me up, leaning strongly toward the "Ditch" column.

 

[7thsealord]

Either ditch or re work that overrated and stupid Prime Directive

Oh yes. I change my vote to this.

Sign me up, leaning strongly toward the "Ditch" column.

Another "ditch" leaner here. Not ban outright, but making the PD into all Ten Commandments and then some was always a bad idea.

Noting that in the original write-up for TOS, much was made of the very broad discretionery powers of a Starship Captain "out in the field". Comparison was made with naval commanders in the Age Of Sail - they could be months or even years away from higher authority, and therefore would sometimes need to do what someone would later refer to as "cowboy diplomacy".

Anyhow, I am sure this territory has already been covered quite a few times here.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I never had a problem with the Prime Directive.

 

[bullethead]

I agree with ditching the Prime Directive or at least rewriting it so that it isn't as inhumane and callous as it is in the TNG era. Allowing whole civilizations to die isn't something that should be advocated by the protagonists because some rule says they shouldn't get involved in stuff happening to pre-warp civilizations.

 

[Vanyel]

I agree with ditching the Prime Directive or at least rewriting it so that it isn't as inhumane and callous as it is in the TNG era. Allowing whole civilizations to die isn't something that should be advocated by the protagonists because some rule says they shouldn't get involved in stuff happening to pre-warp civilizations.

The question then is, who made them God? Should they deflect every incoming asteroid or comet that would cause an extension level event for every pre-warp civilization they know?

 

[muzzleflash]

There's no such thing as "playing God". People like to make some artificial distinction between what is natural and unnatural when it comes to human activities. Human beings are a part of nature. Anything we do as human beings is simply our natural behaviour as organisms which have the capability to do such things.

Deflect away an asteroid heading towards a pre-warp civilization? Why not? How is that any different from a giant space amoeba deflecting away an asteroid heading towards a pre-warp civilization? Oh, but for some reason, its different when "we" do it as opposed to when "nature" does it? No, it's not.

The whole idea of the prime directive is based on a fallacious line of reasoning.

 

[Vanyel]

There's no such thing as "playing God". People like to make some artificial distinction between what is natural and unnatural when it comes to human activities. Human beings are a part of nature. Anything we do as human beings is simply our natural behaviour as organisms which have the capability to do such things.

Deflect away an asteroid heading towards a pre-warp civilization? Why not? How is that any different from a giant space amoeba deflecting away an asteroid heading towards a pre-warp civilization? Oh, but for some reason, its different when "we" do it as opposed to when "nature" does it? No, it's not.

The whole idea of the prime directive is based on a fallacious line of reasoning.

When the gravitational forces of a star system pull an asteroid or comet into a collision course with a planet, prewarp or newly formed, it a natural process. Once it's deflected by a Federation starship the process is no longer natural. Is it cruel? Yes. Is it immoral. Debatable.

I know I'm opening up a can of worms, but we're not talking about a race being wiped out by another space faring race or their own over population and war, nature gave them their chance, and now their chance to learn to protect themselves from extension is gone.

 

[flandry84]

What about a realtime uplink between an away team and the ship?Same as the marines had in "Aliens".
And how is it that the only time we ever saw Starfleet videorecord an away mission(that planet where Laforge was transformed into an alien)was when it was a convenient plot device?

 

[C.E. Evans]

What about a realtime uplink between an away team and the ship?Same as the marines had in "Aliens".
And how is it that the only time we ever saw Starfleet videorecord an away mission(that planet where Laforge was transformed into an alien)was when it was a convenient plot device?

In a way, that's what they do with tricorders, IMO. But rather than transmit video images, they transmit realtime sensor data into the ship's computer.

 

[7thsealord]

There's no such thing as "playing God". People like to make some artificial distinction between what is natural and unnatural when it comes to human activities. Human beings are a part of nature. Anything we do as human beings is simply our natural behaviour as organisms which have the capability to do such things.

Deflect away an asteroid heading towards a pre-warp civilization? Why not? How is that any different from a giant space amoeba deflecting away an asteroid heading towards a pre-warp civilization? Oh, but for some reason, its different when "we" do it as opposed to when "nature" does it? No, it's not.

The whole idea of the prime directive is based on a fallacious line of reasoning.

Noting, as I recall, that part of TOS's 'The Paradise Syndrome' involved Enterprise trying to divert an asteroid ("about the size of Earth's moon...") that threatened to wipe out a developing culture.

 

[The Castellan]

Either ditch or re work that overrated and stupid Prime Directive

Oh yes. I change my vote to this.

I'd rather that Starfleet enforce its Prime Directive more strictly. No more duck blinds. Just leave the planet be until it's intelligent inhabitants die off (intelligent meaning problem solving, like how octopi can unscrew a jar's lid to get to food or how some of the great apes figure out they can reach their food by stacking blocks on each other.) or achieve Warp capabilities.

Use something like the Argus Array (Which took amazing pictures of the Starfleet building yards on Mars) to keep an eye on them from a great distance and make contact once it can be shown they've achieved warp capabilities.

If a Federation Citizen gets stuck on a Non Warp Capable World, he's SOL as would be a member of Starfleet. I say leave them there because they've already caused damage, rescuing them would compound that damage. That might make a good story for a future series. An officer crashes on a NWCW and has to get off that world before he's discovered or his ship gets too faraway for him to reach. Or is that a movie I've seen? It sounds really familiar.

If it gets like that, than I'm no longer a Trek fan.
You make it sound like everyone should be expendable for this stupid policy. And having to have warp travel ability is the most DUMBEST requirement to be even considered worthy of contact. That's like saying, "Well, we can't be with that person, because he or she does not have or make enough money!". And it sounds more like Starfleet's afraid other worlds might one day grow to rival them in power, so keep them all blissfully ignorant and stupid for keeps....sounds familiar today, does it not? The way you described it makes the Federation feel more military and more colder than the horrible humanity we've seen in Starship Troopers, where everyone is expendable and the military and government, not the people, are the boss. And once even one person gets thought of like that, Starfleet and the Federation itself no longer deserves to even exist.

 

[Vanyel]

Oh yes. I change my vote to this.

I'd rather that Starfleet enforce its Prime Directive more strictly. No more duck blinds. Just leave the planet be until it's intelligent inhabitants die off (intelligent meaning problem solving, like how octopi can unscrew a jar's lid to get to food or how some of the great apes figure out they can reach their food by stacking blocks on each other.) or achieve Warp capabilities.

Use something like the Argus Array (Which took amazing pictures of the Starfleet building yards on Mars) to keep an eye on them from a great distance and make contact once it can be shown they've achieved warp capabilities.

If a Federation Citizen gets stuck on a Non Warp Capable World, he's SOL as would be a member of Starfleet. I say leave them there because they've already caused damage, rescuing them would compound that damage. That might make a good story for a future series. An officer crashes on a NWCW and has to get off that world before he's discovered or his ship gets too faraway for him to reach. Or is that a movie I've seen? It sounds really familiar.

If it gets like that, than I'm no longer a Trek fan.
You make it sound like everyone should be expendable for this stupid policy. And having to have warp travel ability is the most DUMBEST requirement to be even considered worthy of contact. That's like saying, "Well, we can't be with that person, because he or she does not have or make enough money!". And it sounds more like Starfleet's afraid other worlds might one day grow to rival them in power, so keep them all blissfully ignorant and stupid for keeps....sounds familiar today, does it not? The way you described it makes the Federation feel more military and more colder than the horrible humanity we've seen in Starship Troopers, where everyone is expendable and the military and government, not the people, are the boss. And once even one person gets thought of like that, Starfleet and the Federation itself no longer deserves to even exist.

And getting involved in less advanced civilizations also sounds familiar. Think conquistadors.

I'm not sure about you, but interpret "warp capable" as FTL civilization. So if a species found a way to make worm holes the PD no longer holds.

Humans have been Warp Capable for what 200 years more or less? So if it takes a species from the time of TNG 200 years to develop Warp drive then humans will be 400 years more advanced. There is nothing to worry about.

The PD applies only to Starfleet personnel. So anyone else in the Federation can violate it all they want. However if they get caught, they are SOL. No different than people sneaking into a country at war, or hostile, to the US and getting caught and held. Why should we do anything other than diplomacy?

The PD prevents other species from seeing Starfleet as a threat. Think of it, how different we'd be if a species 200 years more advanced than us came and said hello. It would throw us into chaos. Some would no longer find solace in Religion; others would think invasion; others would think they're here to find a slave race. If one landed in DC would Moscow or Beijing stay quiet?

The PD, not perfect, not in the least. But until something better comes along, it'll have to do.

 

[The Castellan]

I'd rather that Starfleet enforce its Prime Directive more strictly. No more duck blinds. Just leave the planet be until it's intelligent inhabitants die off (intelligent meaning problem solving, like how octopi can unscrew a jar's lid to get to food or how some of the great apes figure out they can reach their food by stacking blocks on each other.) or achieve Warp capabilities.

Use something like the Argus Array (Which took amazing pictures of the Starfleet building yards on Mars) to keep an eye on them from a great distance and make contact once it can be shown they've achieved warp capabilities.

If a Federation Citizen gets stuck on a Non Warp Capable World, he's SOL as would be a member of Starfleet. I say leave them there because they've already caused damage, rescuing them would compound that damage. That might make a good story for a future series. An officer crashes on a NWCW and has to get off that world before he's discovered or his ship gets too faraway for him to reach. Or is that a movie I've seen? It sounds really familiar.

If it gets like that, than I'm no longer a Trek fan.
You make it sound like everyone should be expendable for this stupid policy. And having to have warp travel ability is the most DUMBEST requirement to be even considered worthy of contact. That's like saying, "Well, we can't be with that person, because he or she does not have or make enough money!". And it sounds more like Starfleet's afraid other worlds might one day grow to rival them in power, so keep them all blissfully ignorant and stupid for keeps....sounds familiar today, does it not? The way you described it makes the Federation feel more military and more colder than the horrible humanity we've seen in Starship Troopers, where everyone is expendable and the military and government, not the people, are the boss. And once even one person gets thought of like that, Starfleet and the Federation itself no longer deserves to even exist.

And getting involved in less advanced civilizations also sounds familiar. Think conquistadors.

I'm not sure about you, but interpret "warp capable" as FTL civilization. So if a species found a way to make worm holes the PD no longer holds.

Humans have been Warp Capable for what 200 years more or less? So if it takes a species from the time of TNG 200 years to develop Warp drive then humans will be 400 years more advanced. There is nothing to worry about.

The PD applies only to Starfleet personnel. So anyone else in the Federation can violate it all they want. However if they get caught, they are SOL. No different than people sneaking into a country at war, or hostile, to the US and getting caught and held. Why should we do anything other than diplomacy?

The PD prevents other species from seeing Starfleet as a threat. Think of it, how different we'd be if a species 200 years more advanced than us came and said hello. It would throw us into chaos. Some would no longer find solace in Religion; others would think invasion; others would think they're here to find a slave race. If one landed in DC would Moscow or Beijing stay quiet?

The PD, not perfect, not in the least. But until something better comes along, it'll have to do.

DC would have denied everything had that happened. I seriously doubt the aliens would land on the whitehouse lawn to announce themselves.

Personally...I could care less if someone looses faith in religion. And many of the religions of the world actually accept life on other worlds, such as the Muslims, only the Evangelical Christians would be devastated.

And you seem to not want to think that people would actually be, I dunno, THRILLED at the prospect of alien life being known....not scared. No one panicked at the Manhattan sighting from last year, everyone was thrilled and hopeful. I got a bottle of 40+ year old scotch to crack open in celebration when the big day comes.

And if the PD is so effective, why have we seen the Federation deal with other races and people that did NOT have faster than light travel. And considering how in the TNG story, first contact, the government of that alien world pretty much told the Federation to get lose, dismantled their warp program, and were going to make more "distractions" for their people, just so they could keep "the traditions alive" like that asshole in the glasses who mardered himself, and the one scientist chick was lucky enough to hitch a ride on the Enterprise, since she was so disgusted with her own government's policy. That's just like not telling people the truth of alien life or doing self imposed PD, just to protect the Evangelicals, or silly status qoes. I don't see how the prime directive is so great as where it protects these guys who want to artificially keep their people ignorant and stupid, and keeping a better future from happening, I really don't see the benefits whatsoever, dude.

 

[Vanyel]

In First Contact the they planets leader, said in their history conquers come saying they are here to help. That happened on Earth as well - like I mentioned, the Conquistadors - and those who came after them.

And like I implied the world would go into chaos because they're would be a multitude of different feelings. Though I failed to mention it, happiness would also be one.

There would be no landing that could be hidden, unless the aliens used a cloak. Russian, America, British, Chinese, French and other countries satellites would see the landing. While the governments of the world may be able to hide it from the general populous, it's the leaders of these countries that would know. Would the President's Kings, Prime Ministers or other leaders just accept that the aliens chose just one country to announce themselves to? And if the aliens landed en mass to several nations do you think in the back of the minds of these heads of state, and of their military advisers, be "Is this an invasion?"

It's best to leave them alone. Let them learn at their own pace. Otherwise they have access to things that they might not be ready for.

Remember how Kieko was attacked for teaching the mechanics of the wormhole and not that it was a Holy Temple? Some Bajorans were not ready to believe, that a race of powerful beings created a wormhole and not a temple where they sat like Zeus on Mount Olympus.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

I agree with ditching the Prime Directive or at least rewriting it so that it isn't as inhumane and callous as it is in the TNG era. Allowing whole civilizations to die isn't something that should be advocated by the protagonists because some rule says they shouldn't get involved in stuff happening to pre-warp civilizations.

The question then is, who made them God? Should they deflect every incoming asteroid or comet that would cause an extension level event for every pre-warp civilization they know?

Frankly, that's non-sense.

You are unconfortable with some actions seen in trek because they display a level of power you superstitiously think should belong only to God.

Well, whether you're unconfortable or not with it, beings in the trekverse (and even in the real world, in certain areas) have that level of power.

Who made them "God"?
Themselves, be gaining such power.
And 'God' is not a fitting word for what they are.


Also - you thing just standing on the sidelines gets one out of the moral hook - when he had the aility to intervene?
If one stopping an asteroid is playing 'god', then one not stopping it despire having the ability to stop it is also playing 'god'.
Inaction is just as morally (and legally) binding as action - read criminal law and cases (from ANY law system known to man) if you don't beleive me.

 

[Vanyel]

I agree with ditching the Prime Directive or at least rewriting it so that it isn't as inhumane and callous as it is in the TNG era. Allowing whole civilizations to die isn't something that should be advocated by the protagonists because some rule says they shouldn't get involved in stuff happening to pre-warp civilizations.

The question then is, who made them God? Should they deflect every incoming asteroid or comet that would cause an extension level event for every pre-warp civilization they know?

Frankly, that's non-sense.

You are unconfortable with some actions seen in trek because they display a level of power you superstitiously think should belong only to God.

Well, whether you're unconfortable or not with it, beings in the trekverse (and even in the real world, in certain areas) have that level of power.

Who made them "God"?
Themselves, be gaining such power.
And 'God' is not a fitting word for what they are.


Also - you thing just standing on the sidelines gets one out of the moral hook - when he had the aility to intervene?
If one stopping an asteroid is playing 'god', then one not stopping it despire having the ability to stop it is also playing 'god'.
Inaction is just as morally (and legally) binding as action - read criminal law and cases (from ANY law system known to man) if you don't beleive me.

We're not talking criminal law but the natural development of a species. And yes we do plat God all the time, every time we heal some or bring someone back from the brink of death. But that is because WE developed it.

We also play God when we stand by and watch a pride of lions take down a gazelle. We can stop the lions but we don't. Why? Because it's the natural process of things. The gazelle hasn't developed a way from completely protecting itself from lions. It's not gun capable.

If a civilization is faced with it's destruction, if it can't defend itself, the Federation can't go protecting them. What if the planet has a dense Ort type cloud or asteroid belt that sends asteroids that hit the planet every 1,000,000 years or so and turn the planets surface uninhabitable and mostly molten rock. Just enough time for nature to cool the planet create new life starting at amino acids leading to the beginnings of a civilization? Should the Federation clear the cloud so the current species can survive.

And they do it only when they come across that scenario. Planet X has reached what we would classify as Earth's Iron age let's save them. Then that planet is at the stone age lets save them too. Where does the Federation draw the line? Wouldn't it equally bad to draw the line at a stone age people as a industrialized people, or a people who just made it to their moon(s)?

Tell me where should the line be drawn? Or should Starfleet go around looking for planets with populations that are forming or have formed an intelligent tool creating and/or tool using using species and protect them from disease or natural disaster? The Federation has the technology to do that. If they do that they'd have a good chunk of the fleet going around looking for these people because in the Star Trek Universe, planets with intelligent life are abundant.

Where should the line be drawn? Warp capable is a good choice since a warp capable people would need to have or are close to having sensors that can scan the skies and they can protect themselves from an asteroid or comet.

Tell me where should the line be drawn? Looking at it, if you draw a line at any point you're denying a race from developing. Even if there are no signs of intelligent. It could be a creature along the lines of a Lucy, running around down there wouldn't it equally cruel to let it die. All planets that support life have the capability to form intelligent life, by colonizing those worlds we are denying any species from developing because we are the top of the food chain and we have taken their habitat and transformed a bit to fit our needs.

I also did bring up the questions of the PD being cruel, I said yes it is. I asked if it was immoral, I answered debatable.

Where do we draw the line?

 

[Edit_XYZ]

Vanyel

As I already said - Frankly, that's non-sense.

Your first error is - "We're not talking criminal law".
We are talking about the death of sentient beings - a death you can prevent with certainty/with barely an effort. A death you choose NOT to prevent.
Meaning, we ARE talking criminal law (international criminal law).

Your second error is - "but the natural development of a species".
If you make contact with a species, her 'natural' development includes contact with you. You see, a civilisation/culture develops 'naturally' by contact with other civilisations (as ALL civilisations in Earth's history have done), NOT in a glass bubble (THIS would be highly abnormal development for a civilisation).

Your third error is - "when we stand by and watch a pride of lions take down a gazelle. We can stop the lions but we don't. Why? Because it's the natural process of things."
We stand by and do nothing because the gazelle is sot sentient and we do not view it as possessing the same rights as a human - NOT because of some superstitious and poorly defined 'natural order of things'.
If the one attacked was a human - let's say, belonging to a primitive tribe, without tools, weapons able to protect him from the lion, then we are morally obligated to save him if we can do so.

etc, etc.


Your first non-sequitur is - "And yes we do plat God all the time, every time we heal some or bring someone back from the brink of death. But that is because WE developed it."
And? You think that because 'we developed it', others do not have the right to benefit from this knowledge?
Really?
So what if a genius gained the knowledge/developed the technology and the persons helped by this tech, not? Are you under the impression a person doesn't deserve medical help if he didn't invent/understand said medical tech?
Guess what - by this argument, you don't deserve medical help; you don't even deserve to use your computer, for that matter.
You only aggrandise yourself - baselessly - when you include yourself in the 'WE' that 'developed it', Vanyel, by implying that you had anything to do with the development of humanity's science and technology - you had as little to do with it as a random alien.

etc, etc.


PS - You may want to start by actually defining 'natural order of things'; at present, it's only a fuzzy concept, apparently a stand-in for your fear of colonialism/technology/etc.

PS2 - "Where do we draw the line?"
When a species attains sentience.

PS3 - Your argument about "denying a race from developing" is a straw-man.
Do you understand the difference between a person alive NOW and one that may or may NOT exist in some nebulose future?
Apparently not.
Your argument is analogous with 'you don't want to save this person now, because it's mathematically possible he'll kill some other person down the line'.
You may want to stay in your house 24/7, crawled under your bed, Vanyel. Otherwise, by moving outside the house, you may start a hurricane in Tokyo, maybe killing a few fellow humans (after all, you're a LOT larger than a butterfly).

 

[T'Girl]

And getting involved in less advanced civilizations also sounds familiar. Think conquistadors.

In January 2010, Haiti experienced a seven magnitude earthquake, over forty-five thousand people were killed. Many nations including America poured in personnel, military, financial and material aid. Full recovery requiring a multi-year effort.

Strictly speaking, there was no requirement for anyone to come to Haiti's rescue, helping the Haitian people was a option.

In all honesty, was the moral/ethical choice for the advanced nations who assisted the Haitians, really so different than a somewhat similar choice on the part of Starfleet/Federation about the people they might be able to save, without the interferance of the Prime Directive?

aliens ...[snip] ... only the Evangelical Christians would be devastated.

Hard to see why, likely their reactions would be just as across the spectrum as any other group. If nothing else, it would give them someone else to proselytize to.

Remember how Keiko was attacked for teaching the mechanics of the wormhole and not that it was a Holy Temple? Some Bajorans were not ready to believe, that a race of powerful beings created a wormhole and not a temple where they sat like Zeus on Mount Olympus.

Kai Winn had no problem with Keiko teaching the mechanics of the wormhole, displaying a scientific diagram, or referring to Veriton Particles. Kai Winn did not yell blasphemy when Keiko taught the children that the passage was made of them. Kia Winn merely asked that certain Bajorian indigenous terms be used in the lesson plan.

KEIKO Commander Sisko encountered the entities who created the wormhole when he ...
WINN: Excuse me. By entities, do you not mean the Prophets?
KEIKO: Yes, on Bajor the entities ...

Kia Winn likely didn't give a damn what Keiko taught to non-Bajorian children. If there had been no Bajorian children present in the classroom, Kai Winn never would have entered. The matter of the Celestial Temple debatable wouldn't have even come up if Keiko hadn't obstinately refused to replace a very few non-indigenous terms with indigenous Bajorian ones. Keiko's lesson plan would have progressed.

And neither the Federation nor the Bajorians actually believe that the Prophets created the "passage."

We're not talking criminal law but the natural development of a species.

How does a species naturally develop after it has been destroyed?

If a civilization is faced with it's destruction, if it can't defend itself, the Federation can't go protecting them.

Why not? If they are there, if they are aware of the problem, if there is a ship available, if they're capable of doing something, if the Federation isn't somewhere else saving their own damned butts. Yeah, go ahead and save them from extinction.

On the other hand, if a small region on a planet has experience a decade long drought and the crops are failing, you might be able to philosophically say "the species will learn from this." We'll apply the PD in this case, because it won't kill the entire fucking species.

 

[CoveTom]

When the gravitational forces of a star system pull an asteroid or comet into a collision course with a planet, prewarp or newly formed, it a natural process. Once it's deflected by a Federation starship the process is no longer natural.

Faulty premise, and this is what muzzleflash was getting at. It is not "no longer natural" simply because humans intervene. Humans are part of nature. What we do is no more or less natural than what gravitational forces do just because we happen to have the ability to create tools, like starships, to assist us.