The Undiscovered Country...

[plynch]

TUC was the logical followup to TSFS, especially in regard to the whole scene of his son getting murdered for no good reason.

It would've been logical if it were movie IV. But it wasn't. Then all of a sudden after two whole movies and how many unseen adventures, they're back to Klingons suck?

The racism shared by the others at or after the dinner party is actually the out-of-character non-Trekkiness I was thinking of.

 

[The Dominion]

TUC was the logical followup to TSFS, especially in regard to the whole scene of his son getting murdered for no good reason.

It would've been logical if it were movie IV. But it wasn't. Then all of a sudden after two whole movies and how many unseen adventures, they're back to Klingons suck?

The racism shared by the others at or after the dinner party is actually the out-of-character non-Trekkiness I was thinking of.

That was IV and V's fault, not VI's. And there were racial biases in Balance of Terror too. Not to mention the Vulcan's subtext of arrogance, that while probably not intentional, was always slightly perceivable in some of Spock's banter.

 

[tighr]

There was racial bias in V with the Klingons present there. They weren't too happy with them, if I recall.

 

[CoveTom]

Is it racial bias to distrust and dislike a sworn enemy? Is it racial bias to be leery of forming an alliance with a people whose ambassador has said "[t]here shall be no peace as long as Kirk lives"?

Yes, some of the stuff in TUC -- "only top of the line models can even talk" -- was racist (and indicative of the bad writing in TUC), but I don't see that in TFF. What I see in TFF is the natural tension between enemies.

 

[DonIago]

(shrugs) I believe the novelization explains that tensions between the races had been exacerbated shortly before the Praxis explosion (or possibly between the time of the explosion and the Starfleet briefing).

Honestly, we have no idea what might have happened to Klingon-Federation relations between TFF and TUC. Maybe Kirk et al. were willing to put on a game face in TFF but by the time of TUC events had conspired to make them less willing to do so.

Not that there have ever been contemporary events leading to flare-ups of unwarranted racial bias...

 

[tighr]

Yes, some of the stuff in TUC -- "only top of the line models can even talk" -- was racist (and indicative of the bad writing in TUC).

What are you talking about? That's a great line. It succinctly conveys the racism that the Enterprise crew was supposed to feel towards the Klingons. It's also clever. I'd call it good writing. Just because its not politically correct doesn't mean it's not a good line.

You then juxtapose that line, about how stupid the Klingons are supposed to be, with the character of Chang who quotes Shakespeare for Chrissake, and it reveals the conceit of the film. It ultimately sets up the ending, where there ultimately IS peace between the humans and the Klingons.

 

[Kirby]

I loved TUC when it came out, as soon as it ended, my friends and I got back in line to see it again. However, every time I watch it now, little things pop out that bug the crap out of me:
The Scooby Doo ending
The Klingon Books
The Shaky kitchen set
Chekov not knowing that phasers will set off the sensors (he was the Chief of Security in TMP)
Chekov being an idiot with Crewman Dax's feet
The bad acting job by everyone being drunk/hung over
"we'll clean their chronometers"
Valeris' mind rape

 

[CoveTom]

What are you talking about? That's a great line. It succinctly conveys the racism that the Enterprise crew was supposed to feel towards the Klingons.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. It conveys a racism among the Enterprise crew that is out of left field and had never been demonstrated before. Yes, there had been anger, hostility and distrust of the Klingons because they were an enemy. But not this kind of base-level racism we see in TUC. It was distasteful because it is completely out of step with what we know of these characters.

You then juxtapose that line, about how stupid the Klingons are supposed to be, with the character of Chang who quotes Shakespeare for Chrissake, and it reveals the conceit of the film.

Chang quoting Shakespeare does not make the Klingons, or him in particular, look intelligent. It makes the writers of the film look like they're trying to inflate the importance of their work by screaming "look at me, look at me, I can insert lines of Shakespeare into my sci-fi dialogue".

 

[Satyrquaze]

The thing you have to remember concerning the racism where the Klingons are concerned is that these are non-perfect human beings (Spock notwithstanding) with foibles, prejuduces, and (we presume) depth of character. They've been either at war or had an uneasy truce with the Klingon Empire for the entirety of their careers if not their lives.

It's maybe not in line with Roddenberry's perfect 23rd century utopia, but it is fairly accurate for where humanity might be in 200-300 years.

 

[CoveTom]

^ That may very well be true, and it's not the presence of racism toward the Klingons that bothers me. It's the fact that never, in 79 episodes and 5 feature films of Star Trek, was this character trait present in any of the main characters, even to the smallest degree. It came completely out of left field, and then all of a sudden it seems as if the entire crew goes on some racist rant against the Klingons. Doesn't make sense, doesn't work for the established characters, and is a way too on-the-nose attempt to shoehorn a modern situation into a Trek allegory.

 

[DonIago]

Given how much we -don't- know about the crew's lives, especially immediately prior to TUC, I don't see any reason to think it's necessarily unrealistic.

Granted perhaps the movie should have elaborated on such circumstances, but welcome to the world of movies having scenes cut for time.

 

[Satyrquaze]

^ That may very well be true, and it's not the presence of racism toward the Klingons that bothers me. It's the fact that never, in 79 episodes and 5 feature films of Star Trek, was this character trait present in any of the main characters, even to the smallest degree. It came completely out of left field, and then all of a sudden it seems as if the entire crew goes on some racist rant against the Klingons. Doesn't make sense, doesn't work for the established characters, and is a way too on-the-nose attempt to shoehorn a modern situation into a Trek allegory.

It's fair to point out that the characters (Burke and Samno) delivering those racist lines in question weren't present in any of those 79 episodes or the previous 5 movies either. It's okay within the bounds of the story for them to racist as they want, as A) they're crewmen. B) They are killed later in the story.

As far as historical racism: I'd argue that is it present in STV when McCoy points out to Kirk that the Klingons don't much like him, and he says that the feeling's mutual. He's admitting he doesn't like an entire species, what would you call it?

Chekov makes the comment in The Trouble with Tribbles that 1.2 parsecs is close enough to smell Klingons. Which could be taken a number of ways, the worst of which saying that Klingons have poor personal hygiene.

I'll grant you the possible racism was muted, but to say it wasn't present at all turning a blind eye to it.

I'll agree the racism seemed very out of place after we'd gotten to know the Enterprise-D crew (particularly Worf), but it worked within the bounds of the events of STVI.

 

[Timo]

Also, at a pretty fundamental level, all of the villains in TOS were treated with extreme disdain by our heroes - them being villains was enough of a reason to hate them. A villain character of TOS that our heroes would have found sympathetic is a plot point in itself: Khan Singh is such a menace because our heroes initially worship his shadow, and respected people like Roger Korby or Dr Adams catch the heroes by surprise, too. But a villain villain is always preemptively hated: Kirk despises Klingons in "Errand of Mercy", sprouting his full arsenal of hatespeak when he has the chance of describe the enemy to the Organians. The only good Romulan is a dead Romulan, too, except perhaps in their introductory episode (where only Spock and a Starfleet guest star support this view). Tholians are already famed for their irrational hostility when they make an appearance; Harry Mudd and Cyrano Jones are walking only because regulations prevent Kirk from knocking them down.

Sympathy for the opponent was never part of the TOS formula. And since an opponent in most Star Trek is by definition an alien species, this directly translates to built-in racism. It's pretty safe to say that Trek features far more racism than the average fictional treatise, specifically because race is dramatically equated with antagonist attitude and evildoing.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[CoveTom]

It's not racism if it happen to be true, and based on fact. In the time of TOS, the Klingons WERE a monolithic race that did all of the evil things that Kirk accuses them of. Now, perhaps that indicates a problem on the part of the writers that they didn't give various races on Star Trek more depth and nuance, but within the context of the fictional world, it is not racism on Kirk's part to accuse the Klingons of being a bunch of treacherous evildoers -- they WERE a bunch of treacherous evildoers.

 

[DonIago]

No race is monolithic. Well, except the Borg.

 

[Therin of Andor]

It's not racism if it happen to be true, and based on fact. In the time of TOS, the Klingons WERE a monolithic race that did all of the evil things that Kirk accuses them of. Now, perhaps that indicates a problem on the part of the writers that they didn't give various races on Star Trek more depth and nuance, but within the context of the fictional world, it is not racism on Kirk's part to accuse the Klingons of being a bunch of treacherous evildoers -- they WERE a bunch of treacherous evildoers.

Huh? I thought Kor, Koloth and Kang were quite well "nuanced".

 

[JarodRussell]

That Shakespear quoting is a bit weird. But then again, there may be a hundred of reasons why Chang does it. He's a warrior interested in his enemy's culture. Maybe Shakespeare is indeed popular with the Klingons, and that "You should read it in the Original Klingon" is just mockery. Or Shakespearian stories are widespread because Shakespeare was an alien.

 

[plynch]

That Shakespear quoting is a bit weird. But then again, there may be a hundred of reasons why Chang does it. He's a warrior interested in his enemy's culture. Maybe Shakespeare is indeed popular with the Klingons, and that "You should read it in the Original Klingon" is just mockery. Or Shakespearian stories are widespread because Shakespeare was an alien.

Or they couldn't resist Shatner's Stratford buddy chewing the scenery. Hokey. Fun, too, i guess, in a hokey way.

 

[lstyer]

Undiscovered Country is my favorite Trek movie, though I recognize it's not the best and I admit it had some cringeworthy bits, the Klingon dictionary sequence, which just struck me as dumb.

But on some level that I can't explain it "feels" the most like Star Trek to me. Also, there's a huge nostalgia factor from my pre-Internet days when I was in a movie theater seeing some un-remembered movie and saw the teaser for Undiscovered Country with absolutely no forewarning. I can remember a tear welling up.

 

[cblmc1296]

Undiscovered Country is my favorite Trek movie, though I recognize it's not the best and I admit it had some cringeworthy bits, the Klingon dictionary sequence, which just struck me as dumb.

But on some level that I can't explain it "feels" the most like Star Trek to me.

Precisely! I've never quite been able to put my finger on the reason for that but I think part of it is that it has a lot of the same elements that the best TOS television episodes had - especially in terms of the way the main characters interact.