Because it wasn't essential that they photograph green, just that they looked spacey, and different enough to the red and the blue.
Why didn't Theiss find a shirt that photographed green, then.
- Thread starter plynch
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Because it wasn't essential that they photograph green, just that they looked spacey, and different enough to the red and the blue.
Logical.
But if I'm runnin' a show and I visualized my crew in red,blue, and green, I'd switch materials to look green. You might be right - they might have just not cared. Okay. You're pretty logical for an Andorian.
quote "I always thought about what if Kirk had worn a green uniform throughout the series." It woulda looked pretty. It's a nicer color, especially next to the blue shirts, at least on a conventional tv. Check out the eps where Kirk is in his tummy-tuck casual, or his dress. Looks nicer than gold. EDIT: Check out Admiral M's avatar.
Actually again, we have a problem. The first and second season command tunics WERE actually gold. (PERIOD)
The greenish tunics were the third season tunics. This is confirmed through James Cawley who has (and this is key) unfaded swatches of the original fabrics cut by Bill Theiss, in the notebooks Bill left him. The fabric James recreated for his use from Bill's notes and swatches bears this out. Half remembered statements later on not withstanding.
1st and 2nd season mustard gold.
3rd avaccado green.
The greenish tunics were the third season tunics. This is confirmed through James Cawley who has (and this is key) unfaded swatches of the original fabrics cut by Bill Theiss, in the notebooks Bill left him. The fabric James recreated for his use from Bill's notes and swatches bears this out. Half remembered statements later on not withstanding.
1st and 2nd season mustard gold.
3rd avaccado green.
TV production moves fast. You can't stop and fuss with every little color on the film when the network is breathing down your neck asking for the next four episodes. You don't have the luxury of time in television that you do in movies to figure all the details out.
So Theiss (who selected the color), Nichelle Nichols (who briefly wore the color, calling it a drab green), David Gerrold (who saw the color when writing his book, called it a "color freakout when the green command shirts photographed as a kind of gold") and others who were actually on the set stating the color was green were lying?
No, the only problem here is that they were green in reality, and gold on the TV screen.
You would have to ask each one what season and what episode they were spicificly referring to...the problem is one of context, but at the end of the day the unfaded 46 year old fabric swatches hand cut by Bill Theiss himself, and passed directly from him to James Cawley don't lie.
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Some comparison shots...
This is ORIGINAL (NOT reproduction) 1st season fabric with ORIGINAL (NOT reproduction) 3rd season fabric laid over top from the Star Trek Prop, Costume & Auction Authority.
This is an ORIGINAL command insignia on an ORIGINAL 1st season command tunic.
Now, I'm looking through my hard drives for the companion in command color I have (I've got a serious "right-click save as" addiction) but this'll serve for now as an example of James' attention to detail. The same time James' recreation of the 1st and 2nd season velour was produced, he released these two images with the following explaination of what we were looking at.
In this first image we see three swatches of fabric. All three of these swatches came from Bill Theiss' personal notebooks. The largest and darkest of the three came directly off the bolt of fabric used and went directly into Bill's notebook, untainted by any sort of lighting or laundering. The other two came directly from the inside seam allowances of screen used and cleaned tunics.
The second image is of the over forty year old swatches laid over top of James' recreation of the 1st season fabric.
It's dead on.
The same insane attention to detail was followed to the letter with all three velour fabric recreations including command.
This is James' recreation of a 1st season velour command gold uniform tunic (with his recreation of the original command insignia made using the actual original brass embroidery die, also gifted to him from Bill Theiss).
I'm sorry, hear say is one thing (even when it comes from impecable sources), but again when the man has Bill Theiss' actual notebooks compleate with unfaded, original fabric the question becomes moot.
1st and 2nd season command was gold.
3rd, green. That's it.
And as soon as I can find the images of James' original velour command gold swatches I'll be sure to post those too if you want.
Cheers!
John
This is ORIGINAL (NOT reproduction) 1st season fabric with ORIGINAL (NOT reproduction) 3rd season fabric laid over top from the Star Trek Prop, Costume & Auction Authority.
This is an ORIGINAL command insignia on an ORIGINAL 1st season command tunic.
Now, I'm looking through my hard drives for the companion in command color I have (I've got a serious "right-click save as" addiction) but this'll serve for now as an example of James' attention to detail. The same time James' recreation of the 1st and 2nd season velour was produced, he released these two images with the following explaination of what we were looking at.
In this first image we see three swatches of fabric. All three of these swatches came from Bill Theiss' personal notebooks. The largest and darkest of the three came directly off the bolt of fabric used and went directly into Bill's notebook, untainted by any sort of lighting or laundering. The other two came directly from the inside seam allowances of screen used and cleaned tunics.
The second image is of the over forty year old swatches laid over top of James' recreation of the 1st season fabric.
It's dead on.
The same insane attention to detail was followed to the letter with all three velour fabric recreations including command.
This is James' recreation of a 1st season velour command gold uniform tunic (with his recreation of the original command insignia made using the actual original brass embroidery die, also gifted to him from Bill Theiss).
I'm sorry, hear say is one thing (even when it comes from impecable sources), but again when the man has Bill Theiss' actual notebooks compleate with unfaded, original fabric the question becomes moot.
1st and 2nd season command was gold.
3rd, green. That's it.
And as soon as I can find the images of James' original velour command gold swatches I'll be sure to post those too if you want.
Cheers!
John
Just to be clear, the Theiss quote I cited was from 1968-69 (and speaking to Dorothy Fontana) while the show was still in production, not after the fact.
If the 1st and 2nd season uniforms were in fact goldish, I find it odd that Theiss made the dress uniforms and wrap-arounds for Kirk in green instead of a gold. After all, the other dress uniforms are red and blue, so, it's puzzling why he would choose a different color for the command uniforms when making these alternate outfits.
Curious.
If the 1st and 2nd season uniforms were in fact goldish, I find it odd that Theiss made the dress uniforms and wrap-arounds for Kirk in green instead of a gold. After all, the other dress uniforms are red and blue, so, it's puzzling why he would choose a different color for the command uniforms when making these alternate outfits.
Curious.
I agree it IS puzzling, but I stopped looking for it to make sense. Not everything has a perfect explaination. Crap happens in TV production.
I grew up thinking the command uniforms were gold, then I found out around the same time as everbody else that they were green, and that made sense as the dress uniform and the wraps were green. But then I started to learn more about these uniforms than I reallllllllly ever care to know. (I hate Star Trek costuming now, but I'm still obsessed. I need help), and found that both colors are correct depending on what season you're talking about.
The idea that all of the command uniforms were green is now such a firmly held conviction that no one beleaves the guy who has THE actual effffffing material.
I feel for the guy. He's got Bill Theiss' original notes, hand drawn patterns, swatches hand cut by the designer himself, and the original brass embroidery dies, and a bunch of fanboys tell HIM that he's got the color wrong. No wonder he's moved on to make Wild, Wild West episodes.
LOL.
Damn.
John
p.s.
Yeah, but remember that in 1968 and 1969 they WERE actualy using the command green double knit material. So...
I grew up thinking the command uniforms were gold, then I found out around the same time as everbody else that they were green, and that made sense as the dress uniform and the wraps were green. But then I started to learn more about these uniforms than I reallllllllly ever care to know. (I hate Star Trek costuming now, but I'm still obsessed. I need help), and found that both colors are correct depending on what season you're talking about.
The idea that all of the command uniforms were green is now such a firmly held conviction that no one beleaves the guy who has THE actual effffffing material.
I feel for the guy. He's got Bill Theiss' original notes, hand drawn patterns, swatches hand cut by the designer himself, and the original brass embroidery dies, and a bunch of fanboys tell HIM that he's got the color wrong. No wonder he's moved on to make Wild, Wild West episodes.
LOL.
Damn.
John
p.s.
Yeah, but remember that in 1968 and 1969 they WERE actualy using the command green double knit material. So...
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Oh, by the way...
while I was looking through my hard drives I found a fun image taken on the STAR TREK:NEW VOYAGES/PHASE II bridge with everyone wearing the "green" double knit tunics.
James' tunic is a slightly diffrent color.
Know why?
And for extra credit does everybody know who the two Starfleet flag officers are?
while I was looking through my hard drives I found a fun image taken on the STAR TREK:NEW VOYAGES/PHASE II bridge with everyone wearing the "green" double knit tunics.
James' tunic is a slightly diffrent color.
Know why?
And for extra credit does everybody know who the two Starfleet flag officers are?
No need to shout.
Tell us, already. A lot of people in here are older than first graders.
By the way, I appreciate very much your photographs and evidence. I've asked for this sort of thing twice before, once in the aforementioned thread on TOS in black and white.
Since you are here in this thread, now, I'll also repeat the request I made twice before. Is there any way these materials can be photographed with a ColorChecker in frame, or something like one?
Oh, and let's not forget that in all three seasons, there were episodes filmed outdoors. Outdoors, the gold command tunic always looked gold to me, no matter which season it was.
Well, I certainly never wanted to treat anyone like a first grader, just wanted to have a bit of fun.
The reason James' tunic is darker, is that happens to be an actuall 42 year old Shatner hero tunic. It displays years of age compared to two brand new tunics.
The reason James' tunic is darker, is that happens to be an actuall 42 year old Shatner hero tunic. It displays years of age compared to two brand new tunics.
To my eye, the jumpsuits for TOS command personnel appeared to be green, though, such as those seen in the phaser room in Balance of Terror [http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Fields]. Were these jumpsuits made out of the same material?
Yup. That is Andy with Buck Rogers all right!
I can ask Patty Wright (James co-producer, and costuming assistant on Phase II), but it's unlikely at this point just because James is somewhat burned out on the costuming end of STAR TREK, and is also so very busy with being Elvis again (for his first full time gig since 2007), playing James T. West in his new series, and working on three currently (in different stages of compleation) episodes of Phase II.
He's also been fighting the "Color/Sparkle/Sheen Wars II" over at the Starfleet 1701st costuming boards so long that he's out right said that he's done with the whole discussion. He knows what the real fabric looked like (not 40 years later, but indeed on the day Bill Theiss cut it 46 years ago) because he owns it, and thats that.
I for one have been apart of those wars for years (I've been in the trenches man...I've seen things. Bad things. Whole tunics torn apart...). I originaly sided with the "greens" , but then I saw the truth of what I was fighting against, as did eventualy most all of those fighting. It's excepted by most everybody now in serious STAR TREK costuming circles that the 1st and 2nd season command velour was gold.
Beleave it or not the battles over the last year or so have raged over (and this is silly and why James is done with it)...sparkle. How much sparkle? What IS spakle? What is sheen? How much sheen was created by the sparkle? It's enough to drive one a tiny bit crazy. But as a result of all of the color wars since the invention of the interwebs, people "know" that the TOS command tunics were "green", when infact only the 3rd season tunics were. We call it the "colateral damage".
The original fabric for The Technician Jumpers, as well as McCoy's "sickbay surgical jumper" was actually raw silk. The command jumpers you saw were indeed an olive green.
Cheers!
I can ask Patty Wright (James co-producer, and costuming assistant on Phase II), but it's unlikely at this point just because James is somewhat burned out on the costuming end of STAR TREK, and is also so very busy with being Elvis again (for his first full time gig since 2007), playing James T. West in his new series, and working on three currently (in different stages of compleation) episodes of Phase II.
He's also been fighting the "Color/Sparkle/Sheen Wars II" over at the Starfleet 1701st costuming boards so long that he's out right said that he's done with the whole discussion. He knows what the real fabric looked like (not 40 years later, but indeed on the day Bill Theiss cut it 46 years ago) because he owns it, and thats that.
I for one have been apart of those wars for years (I've been in the trenches man...I've seen things. Bad things. Whole tunics torn apart...). I originaly sided with the "greens" , but then I saw the truth of what I was fighting against, as did eventualy most all of those fighting. It's excepted by most everybody now in serious STAR TREK costuming circles that the 1st and 2nd season command velour was gold.
Beleave it or not the battles over the last year or so have raged over (and this is silly and why James is done with it)...sparkle. How much sparkle? What IS spakle? What is sheen? How much sheen was created by the sparkle? It's enough to drive one a tiny bit crazy. But as a result of all of the color wars since the invention of the interwebs, people "know" that the TOS command tunics were "green", when infact only the 3rd season tunics were. We call it the "colateral damage".
The original fabric for The Technician Jumpers, as well as McCoy's "sickbay surgical jumper" was actually raw silk. The command jumpers you saw were indeed an olive green.
Cheers!
Actually, Gerard has lost a bunch of weight. He was unrecognizable at one point.
As for the matter at hand, I've heard various testimonials, from some on this forum and elsewhere, that the velour looks green on the hanger, but magically changes to something more gold/green when worn, and under the stage lights (and especially after the color mixers have had their way) starts looking downright orange.
Additionally, the remastered footage often times shows those velour tunics as decidedly greener than previously seen. Add to this mix comments from the man himself, William Ware Theiss, how the tunics were supposed to be sort of an avocado green, which is bolstered by the fact that every other command division uniform we were presented with (dress, jumpsuit, wraparound) were very clearly green. The color of the third season tunics, which weren't as subject to color shifting as the velour allegedly was, shows the intended color quite nicely.
Now we're presented with closeup photos of what is asserted to be the actual fabric from 40+ years ago, looking as golden brown as a freshly baked biscuit.
I think it's safe to say that the command tunics were at least supposed to be green, and something went wrong between the wardrobe department and the film processors.
As for the matter at hand, I've heard various testimonials, from some on this forum and elsewhere, that the velour looks green on the hanger, but magically changes to something more gold/green when worn, and under the stage lights (and especially after the color mixers have had their way) starts looking downright orange.
Additionally, the remastered footage often times shows those velour tunics as decidedly greener than previously seen. Add to this mix comments from the man himself, William Ware Theiss, how the tunics were supposed to be sort of an avocado green, which is bolstered by the fact that every other command division uniform we were presented with (dress, jumpsuit, wraparound) were very clearly green. The color of the third season tunics, which weren't as subject to color shifting as the velour allegedly was, shows the intended color quite nicely.
Now we're presented with closeup photos of what is asserted to be the actual fabric from 40+ years ago, looking as golden brown as a freshly baked biscuit.
I think it's safe to say that the command tunics were at least supposed to be green, and something went wrong between the wardrobe department and the film processors.
Well, all I know is that sitting in my closet right now is a 2010 recreation of a 1st season command tunic made using James Cawley's custom maufactured recreation of the original unfaded fabric samples hand cut by Bill Theiss himself over 45 years ago.
And there's NO way anyone would call that green except under the bluest light possable.
And there's NO way anyone would call that green except under the bluest light possable.
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