Dukat = Evil?

[indolover]

It depends. Dukat headed the Occupation, but whether he personally masterminded the brutality of the camps is unknown. Most likely the Central Command simply put him in charge and he implemented what they ordered. That said though, I think the writers tried to try an analogy between him and the Bajorans and Hitler and the Jews.

I don't think Dukat overall was a nice person (though that term is admittedly a relative one), but he had as all persons do redeeming qualities. he loved his people, had a lot of charm and charisma, and had good leadership skills. I would also say that he only was characterised as evil when Cardassia joined the Dominion. When he helped the Federation (in The Maquis), and the Federation helped him (in The Way of the Warrior), Sisko and co. had no reason to call him evil.

 

[indolover]

But just because he was a Cardassian general didn't make him evil either.

Exactly. Some Guls were "good". Only a few we had seen were evil, such as Gul Dar'heel.

 

[Gul Re'jal]

That said though, I think the writers tried to try an analogy between him and the Bajorans and Hitler and the Jews.

Why Jews? I see occupied Eastern Europe. And why Hitler? More like Jürgen Stroop. It doesn't make him any less evil, as he did follow his orders and did torment Bajorans, but the analogy is not accurate. He was not the head of the Cardassian Union and he did not design the occupation and he was not supposed to kill every last Bajoran, but rape their planet (not that it wasn't horrible--it was, but it was not the same thing).

 

[JRoss]

Sci is completely right on this one. Serve as a willing cog in a machine of evil, become truly evil.

 

[JB2005]

That said though, I think the writers tried to try an analogy between him and the Bajorans and Hitler and the Jews.

Why Jews? I see occupied Eastern Europe. And why Hitler? More like Jürgen Stroop. It doesn't make him any less evil, as he did follow his orders and did torment Bajorans, but the analogy is not accurate. He was not the head of the Cardassian Union and he did not design the occupation and he was not supposed to kill every last Bajoran, but rape their planet (not that it wasn't horrible--it was, but it was not the same thing).

This. Comparing someone to Hitler to prove a point is emotive rather than based on any kind of real analysis...Also Godwin's Law...

 

[JRoss]

Hold on. You can't call Godwin's Law on this. You are Godwining Godwin. When the Cardassians and Bajorans are clear analogies for the Nazis and Jews. We are considering a man who was in charge of an analogy of the Holocaust. Your comment fails so hard.

 

[JB2005]

Except the comment was in response to a comment which said, why Jews and why Hitler? So there's debate about whether or not that's what the analogy is...

I personally see it, at least in part, as an analogy for British Imperialism - or even more generally European Imperialism - we went to Africa, took slaves forced them to plunder their own resources for our benefit, during the Boer War Britain rounded up most of the people in the region and put them into Concentration Camps. Though I stress the word "concentration" and not "death" here, the conditions were appalling and thousands of people did die, but like the Cardassians and unlike the Nazis, their aim was to put the populace in one place (ie Concentrate) and not to exterminate.)

And why automatically assume Bajorans are analagous with Jews? Because they are religious? The Cardassians didn't target a "segment" of the Bajoran populace, they targeted the whole populace...

I can call Godwin's Law, because I don't see where there is any relevance to the Nazis.

 

[JRoss]

You can call Godwin's Law, sure. But it's clearly a fallacy. Calling Godwin's Law on an invading genocidal force is ridiculous. Godwin's Law is meant to show the absurd depths that people will dive to in order to win any argument, regardless of relevance. The Nazi thing is so clearly relevant here that your own invoking is falling into the same pit into which those who call others Nazis fall.

 

[The Dominion]

But just because he was a Cardassian general didn't make him evil either.

Of course not. I never said being a Cardassian gul made him evil.

Well, you kind of did.

I said being the head of the Occupation made him evil.

But it didn't, because he didn't ultimately make the political decision, he was just put in charge. It was what he did in that position, and the fact that he really didn't do much to stand up for the Bajorens, even if he didn't hate them, that made him evil.

 

[JRoss]

Dominion, you are really reaching with this. Of course what he did in that position made him evil. His choices. He could have chosen not to be head of the occupation and that would have been a fine moral choice. I think that you and Sci really believe the same thing, but you are being too specific.

 

[Deckerd]

Evil is such a specific christian term should it really be used for an alien? There are lots of things you can call him* without resorting to an external force that takes him over (until, perhaps, an external force does take him over at which point you could justifiably say he is Evil).

*amoral, psychotic, pitiless, misanthrope, genocidal, etc etc

 

[Anwar]

Evil isn't a Christian term, really...

And by that logic, no human terms should be applied to any alien in fiction.

 

[JRoss]

And evil isn't a force that takes over a person, it's the choices that a person makes.

 

[RoJoHen]

I've been rewatching DS9 for the first time since it originally aired. I just started Season 5, and I have to say, I have been incredibly surprised at how NOT evil Dukat has been. Egotistical and self-serving? Yes, absolutely. Did he do evil things? Sure. But does doing evil deeds make a person evil? Can a person reform after being evil? It's not like he was the one who decided to occupy Bajor, and from watching his character, I get the impression he actually did as much as his power would let him to make conditions for the Bajorans as tolerable as possible. Conditions were still terrible, but I think without Dukat they would have been far worse.

 

[JB2005]

Consider Quark's comments, when the Cardassians re-invade, there are no Ghetto fences, no Bajoran slaves and no sign that Gul Dukat's pushing for that...

 

[Sci]

But just because he was a Cardassian general didn't make him evil either.

Of course not. I never said being a Cardassian gul made him evil.

Well, you kind of did.

No, I did not.

I said being the head of the Occupation made him evil.

But it didn't, because he didn't ultimately make the political decision, he was just put in charge.

And Hans Frank didn't make the political decision to invade and occupy Poland, he was just put in charge of that occupation. But the man was still executed for his war crimes.

Because, hey, guess what, not being the head of state does not mean you didn't make the choice to help carry out atrocities.

 

[JRoss]

Sci, I think that it's time you just declared victory and left this thread. There's really no defense of Dukat and you've shown it.

 

[JB2005]

Sci, I think that it's time you just declared victory and left this thread. There's really no defense of Dukat and you've shown it.

Define evil...

 

[Sci]

Sci, I think that it's time you just declared victory and left this thread. There's really no defense of Dukat and you've shown it.

Define evil...

The deliberate valuation of power over any target above all other considerations, especially to the point of violating the rights of one's victims and/or with regards to the gaining of pleasure or satisfaction from the causing of pain or suffering in one's victims.

 

[Worf'sParmach]

And her mother... I was so worried they were going to pull the ultimate cheese of "I am your father" but thankfully they didn't do anything so sucky.

That whole episode I kept thinking "If they find some warped way to make Dukat her father I'm never watching DS9 again."