Plot hole city: Part 3!
- Thread starter William Wallace
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What I said was they don't make a big deal about Kirk's heroism, like oldSpock does when he insists on sending Kirk and Scott alone to the enterprise. Logically, oldSpock should go with them, among other reasons, to give tactical information about Nero's ship, and to help convince nuSpock to go along with the plan to stop Nero (living proof of the time travel would have gone a long way). But instead, Spock is so overwhelmingly confident in Kirk's leadership that he stays behind. Considering how Kirk has been portrayed as a reckless lunatic that's lucky he's still alive, this makes no sense whatsoever, and makes it seem like Spock is simply reading the script.
number6
Vice Admiral
Well, yeah they sure did in TOS and Kirk was certainly just as reckless. The reason Old Spock didn't come along with NuKirk is explained in the film by Old Spock!!!
Basically if you were paying attention you would know this from watching the film. The math on this one isn't terribly hard for those who don't need everything spoonfed to them or handed on a silver lens flare platter.
Basically if you were paying attention you would know this from watching the film. The math on this one isn't terribly hard for those who don't need everything spoonfed to them or handed on a silver lens flare platter.
Calling NuKirk a reckless lunatic is your perception. So if that is how you see it then no wonder you feel the way you do. OldSpock is overwhelmingly confident in Kirk's leadership because he has experienced it first hand for years so it is logical from OldSpock's perception that NuKirk is capable of displaying the same leadership qualities.
Also, remember, the way you're seeing it isn't the way the OldSpock character sees it. You seem to fall under the premise that OldSpock should be seeing it the way you do.
number6
Vice Admiral
The current state of this thread:
IIRC the "explanation" had something to do with depriving nuKirk and nuSpock of their friendship, as if that were more important that the billions of lives at stake (but that's already been covered in Plot Hole City Part 2). Nothing was explained about why Kirk was so great.
I'm under the premise that oldSpock, being Vulcan and all, should be using logic to make his decisions. He doesn't seem very logical to me.
Haven't you been following all the movies? From the motion picture to Undiscovered Country showed OldSpock embracing his human self and integrating that into his personality. He even tells NuSpock to follow his heart.
number6
Vice Admiral
Sure it was.. Spock got Kirk back in the game because he knows what Kirk is capable of in either reality. Nero also talks about how great Kirk was. This is the same Kirk just younger in a different reality. At the core they're both the same.
Space Therapist beat me to it.
This.
Old Spock took a leap of faith because he understands the core nature of Kirk as well as his younger self.
number6
Vice Admiral
Because of his understanding of a lifelong friend and his own "human" nature.
Bingo. Having oldSpock take a purely logical approach only works if one disregards much of the character arc for Spock which extends from the the Original Series through the feature films and into the S5 TNG "Unification" episodes. While it might be possible to make a case for Spock being over-emotional in the 2009 film, it can't be denied that the character had been heading away from pure logic and toward embrace of his emotional side for quite some time as a result of his own deliberate choice, logically arrived-at.
But shouldn't Spock have been able to follow his own course rather than haveing his older self tell him what to do? Will Spock actually embrace his human half or will he simply play at it? Could Spock Prime have turned into the person that he became without all the experiences that brought him to that point in the first place?
Having his older self show up and say "embrace your humanity" and Spock goes "OK". An emotion journey that took Spock Prime decades his younger self accomplishes in the space of a few days?
Having his older self show up and say "embrace your humanity" and Spock goes "OK". An emotion journey that took Spock Prime decades his younger self accomplishes in the space of a few days?
Where do you see that happening?
Saquist
Commodore
Which doesn't tell me a thing about where in the movie you saw nuSpock accomplishing "in the space of a few days" the same "emotion journey" it took oldSpock decades to complete. You've more or less repeated your previous contention, adding nothing new.
He's essentially the same relentlessly logical character when we meet him in depth for the first time at Kirk's Kobayashi Maru. By the time we go to Vulcan and back to Earth, he's pretty much giving up on the whole "logic" thing. Every time he tries to invoke logic, he's either told that he should abandon it or that he's wrong. When he gives into his emotion and tells Kirk that he should kill Nero is when he's pretty much gotten to the same place as old SPock did in TMP, embracing his emotions while realizing that logic is pretty much a dead end. He may say that things are "logical" from time to time but he's pretty much running on controlled emotion by the movie's end.
That' doesn't mean that he's as freewheeling as Kirk but that he's decided that with Vulcan gone his future lies with his human side.
That' doesn't mean that he's as freewheeling as Kirk but that he's decided that with Vulcan gone his future lies with his human side.
I just rewatched the movie again today. A few points.
- I recall there being an issue about why the Enterprise didn't warn Starfleet over subspace radio after Vulcan was destroyed. The reason is that subspace communications were out due to damage. Spock says this during the argument with Kirk right before he ejects Kirk from the ship. It's harder to make out than usual because in their argument Kirk and Spock are talking at the same time.
- Spock's character arc with respect to his battle between logic and emotion is depicted in the film as lasting his whole life, at least from the time when he is a little boy being bullied at school to after the time when Vulcan is destroyed. When Spock is a little boy, after the bullies taunt him into displaying emotion, Sarek lies to him about why he married Amanda, claiming it was the logical thing to do. This is in the context of a lecture about why Spock should control his emotions, lest his emotions control him. Then, we cut immediately to a meeting between young adult Spock and his mother right before he goes to the Vulcan Science Academy to decide his future. Spock expresses concern that Amanda will approve of his decision should he proceed with Kolinahr and purge all emotions. Finally, after Amanda's death, Sarek confesses to Spock the true reason he married Amanda, which is that he loved her. It is at this point that Spock has his epiphany, and stops being a Herbert. In fact, at that point the whole bridge crew reaches, and becomes one.
- I don't think anyone's disputed this, but I just thought it was worth adding that Gaila is hot. She is so freaking hot that it would be a shame if she doesn't survive. Her being as hot as she is is not a plot hole. I just had to say that.
- I recall there being an issue about why the Enterprise didn't warn Starfleet over subspace radio after Vulcan was destroyed. The reason is that subspace communications were out due to damage. Spock says this during the argument with Kirk right before he ejects Kirk from the ship. It's harder to make out than usual because in their argument Kirk and Spock are talking at the same time.
- Spock's character arc with respect to his battle between logic and emotion is depicted in the film as lasting his whole life, at least from the time when he is a little boy being bullied at school to after the time when Vulcan is destroyed. When Spock is a little boy, after the bullies taunt him into displaying emotion, Sarek lies to him about why he married Amanda, claiming it was the logical thing to do. This is in the context of a lecture about why Spock should control his emotions, lest his emotions control him. Then, we cut immediately to a meeting between young adult Spock and his mother right before he goes to the Vulcan Science Academy to decide his future. Spock expresses concern that Amanda will approve of his decision should he proceed with Kolinahr and purge all emotions. Finally, after Amanda's death, Sarek confesses to Spock the true reason he married Amanda, which is that he loved her. It is at this point that Spock has his epiphany, and stops being a Herbert. In fact, at that point the whole bridge crew reaches, and becomes one.
- I don't think anyone's disputed this, but I just thought it was worth adding that Gaila is hot. She is so freaking hot that it would be a shame if she doesn't survive. Her being as hot as she is is not a plot hole. I just had to say that.
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