City on the Edge of Forever - How did they return?

[Bob Karo]

I've been thinking about this.

If the Guardian could pull them back after they were done, couldn't he have pulled McCoy back before he changed history? Or just not transported him at all?

Maybe the Guardian was just bored? He'd been waiting for a question a pretty long while. Maybe the whole venture was for shits and giggles.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ About that...

Spoiler: novels

It is implied in the recent novel Department of Temporal Investigations: Watching the Clock that the Guardian is insane, or at least very much unbalanced.

Although it is equally likely that the Guardian simply can't transport anyone against their will. McCoy would have had to want to return, and evidently he didn't.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Maybe the Guardian was just bored? He'd been waiting for a question a pretty long while. Maybe the whole venture was for shits and giggles.

This occurred to me too, in a way. "Let me be your gateway!" he says.

Maybe he was lonely.

Maybe he's trying to be educational, in the way that field trips are educational. He seems benevolent, in that he willingly facilitates things being set aright.

 

[scotpens]

. . . Although it is equally likely that the Guardian simply can't transport anyone against their will. McCoy would have had to want to return, and evidently he didn't.

McCoy was in a delusional paranoid state induced by an accidental injection of cordrazine. Maybe the Guardian can’t transport anyone who isn’t in their right mind?

. . . As for the 'original' history? There wasn't one. There was a predestination paradox. Just like in ST:FC.

In the original history, Edith Keeler died in a traffic accident. If McCoy had never gone through the Guardian in the first place, there would be no need for Kirk and Spock to travel into the past to keep McCoy from saving Edith and changing history. No predestination paradox here.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Like I said, it's a paradox. At the beginning of the episode, before the injection of cordrazine, those living in the past time frame (i.e. Depression-era NYC) had already witnessed McCoy's appearance centuries ago; he just hadn't done it "yet" in the future. It's an absolutely closed loop, like the original Terminator.

 

[scotpens]

^^ Well, that sort of paradox is inherent in any instance of time travel to the past. If I travel back and meet my younger self, then I should have memories of meeting my older self when I was younger. But would I have those memories even before I travel back in time? Like in the TAS episode “Yesteryear,” in which Spock recalled meeting a Vulcan named Selek (actually his own present-day self) as a child?

 

[KirksStuntMan]

Like I said, it's a paradox. At the beginning of the episode, before the injection of cordrazine, those living in the past time frame (i.e. Depression-era NYC) had already witnessed McCoy's appearance centuries ago; he just hadn't done it "yet" in the future. It's an absolutely closed loop, like the original Terminator.

Maybe we've all been injected with cordrazine and reality is just a drug induced dream. Oh, man. I'm freaking myself out again. Frank Sinatra sang it best, "Why not use your mentality, step up,wake up to reality."

 

[MarsWeeps]

Edith was native to that time period, that is probably why she couldn't return via the Guardian - she can't go to the future because she didn't come FROM it.

That didn't stop McCoy from going to the past. He wasn't from that time period and he had no problem going back.

And her death in the past had to be recorded. To preserve history, her death had to be a known event. A disappearance would not be enough.

I'm thinking it would. When Edith lived, her "peace movement" is what delayed the US getting involved in WWII, which allowed Germany to develop the A-bomb first. She had to die so there would be no peace movement. Her disappearance would amount to the same thing. No peace movement, no delay in the US getting involved in the war.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

^ I disagree.

In the first place, there were two histories read on Spock's tricorder, one in which Edith had an obituary in the newspaper, the other in which her meeting with the President was printed in the paper. Within the parameters of the story, no third alternative was available that might restore time.

In the second place, upthread, some posters were appealing to the butterfly effect with respect to the bum. By the parameters of the story, we know that the bum's death by phaser disintegration had no impact on the shape of time. But also by the parameters of the story, evidently the same cannot be said for Edith, who has a much higher profile.

For all we know, her disappearance could have triggered all sorts of unintended consequences that could have changed time, which is to be expected according to the butterfly effect. For example, a former bum frequently seen with her might have been accused and arrested for her murder, whereas in the Federation's timeline, he was to have made a significant contribution after having been reformed by her.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Edith was native to that time period, that is probably why she couldn't return via the Guardian - she can't go to the future because she didn't come FROM it.

That didn't stop McCoy from going to the past. He wasn't from that time period and he had no problem going back.

But that's the thing. McCoy started in the future - his own time. Thus he had an 'anchor' there which the Guardian could use to pull him back. Edith, OTOH, had never been through the Guardian. She was native to the past. She can't return to a future she's never been to in the first place.

When Edith lived, her "peace movement" is what delayed the US getting involved in WWII, which allowed Germany to develop the A-bomb first. She had to die so there would be no peace movement. Her disappearance would amount to the same thing. No peace movement, no delay in the US getting involved in the war.

You don't think she could have been considered a martyr, and thus started the peace movement anyway, if she had disappeared with no record of her death? Those who would have sympathized with her might have assumed she was kidnapped or something and thus started the movement without her.

 

[Bixby]

You don't think she could have been considered a martyr, and thus started the peace movement anyway, if she had disappeared with no record of her death? Those who would have sympathized with her might have assumed she was kidnapped or something and thus started the movement without her.

I forget what year CITY is supposed to occur, but I think it takes place in the mid-30's because a)World War 2 wasn't mentioned IIRC and was years in the future, b)Kirk and Spock made it sound to Edith like they had trouble finding work, suggesting the years during the height of the Great Depression, and c)Kirk and Edith were going to see a Clark Gable movie, said actor who reached the zenith of his popularity in the mid-30's.

From the speech Edith gives during the episode, she hadn't much gone past speculative theories on future technology and prosperity, disseminated only to a crowd of mostly-marginalized types in her small New York city soup kitchen. So there was no reason at the time of the episode for her to tailor her speeches towards an anti-war bent, thus unlikely she might become a Martin Luther King-type and change the course of history.

 

[SmoothieX]

He had to be precise, but who's to say that they didn't change history in some way?

The Disappearing Bum. I'm sure that he didn't phaser himself out of existence in the original history.

But it could be that he had literally no effect on the timeline. Maybe he was going to die the next day, anyway. Spock did imply that the rivers and eddies of time generally end up with the same result unless something MAJOR is changed.

Erastus - Also Boston currently. Hating it every second. I'm Oregon at heart too, I think I'm moving there next spring.

 

[erastus25]

The Disappearing Bum. I'm sure that he didn't phaser himself out of existence in the original history.

But it could be that he had literally no effect on the timeline. Maybe he was going to die the next day, anyway. Spock did imply that the rivers and eddies of time generally end up with the same result unless something MAJOR is changed.

Erastus - Also Boston currently. Hating it every second. I'm Oregon at heart too, I think I'm moving there next spring.

I've actually moved on to Amherst for grad school - reminds me a lot of Portland in some ways. Too bad you don't like Boston, I always found it a fun city. But I do agree, Oregon will always be home...

 

[scotpens]

I forget what year CITY is supposed to occur, but I think it takes place in the mid-30's because a)World War 2 wasn't mentioned IIRC and was years in the future, b)Kirk and Spock made it sound to Edith like they had trouble finding work, suggesting the years during the height of the Great Depression, and c)Kirk and Edith were going to see a Clark Gable movie, said actor who reached the zenith of his popularity in the mid-30's.

Edith specifically says the year is 1930. The Clark Gable reference is sloppy writing, since Gable was an unknown bit-player at the time and wouldn't become a star until he made Red Dust with Jean Harlow in 1932.

Since Edith was a rather insignificant figure in the normal timeline, it's highly unlikely that she would have gained posthumous "followers" who would start a massive peace movement without her active participation.

 

[MarsWeeps]

But that's the thing. McCoy started in the future - his own time. Thus he had an 'anchor' there which the Guardian could use to pull him back. Edith, OTOH, had never been through the Guardian. She was native to the past. She can't return to a future she's never been to in the first place.

The same could be said for McCoy. How can he go to a past that he's never been to in the first place? The first time McCoy went through the Guardian, he had no anchor in the past and he had no problem going there. Edith had no anchor in the future so she would have no problem going there either.

You don't think she could have been considered a martyr, and thus started the peace movement anyway, if she had disappeared with no record of her death? Those who would have sympathized with her might have assumed she was kidnapped or something and thus started the movement without her.

I would think being killed in a traffic accident would be a greater opportunity for someone to become a martyr than if they simply disappeared. Nobody continued her peace movement after she was killed (at least none that had any effect on history) so I seriously doubt her disappearance would have had a greater effect. Besides, if Kirk & company had time to change back into their uniforms, Edith could have told her friends she had an emergency somewhere and would be going away.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Dude, she didn't have a peace movement yet when she was killed. All she had was a mission where she helped bums.

 

[MarsWeeps]

Dude, she didn't have a peace movement yet when she was killed. All she had was a mission where she helped bums.

Yes, and the bums had to listen to her "speeches" which could be considered the start of her peace movement.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ And assuming that Edith, like Joan Collins, was English, who knows what kind of following she had back home.

 

[jk82]

Erastus - Also Boston currently. Hating it every second. I'm Oregon at heart too, I think I'm moving there next spring.

What's wrong with Boston? That city has to be the luckiest city in the country with every single one of its major sports teams winning at least one championship in the last 10 years.

 

[erastus25]

Erastus - Also Boston currently. Hating it every second. I'm Oregon at heart too, I think I'm moving there next spring.

What's wrong with Boston? That city has to be the luckiest city in the country with every single one of its major sports teams winning at least one championship in the last 10 years.

Lol. You have no idea how insufferable everyone got. I was actively rooting against the Bruins just so people would be disappointed. The best part about the Red Sox collapse was that I got to stop hearing about them a couple weeks early. Some of those people literally think Boston is the Hub of the Universe (google it, I'm not kidding...).