Operational Crew of 1701

[Unicron]

Actually, I hadn't realized Cary beat me to it. D'oh.

 

[scotpens]

Much like the Medusans, the dolphins would seem to serve a function while suffering from limitations, especially in mingling and mobility. We don't know whether they'd count as "crew"; they might be more akin to the dogs of a Marine security team.

That does seem the more likely scenario, given recent findings that suggest dolphins may not be as smart as we thought they were. Their brains are large but contain few neurons compared to primate brains.

 

[Rick Sternbach]

Of course, Cetecean Ops is only ever name-dropped onscreen, with no specific elaboration on its function, or even indication that the dolphins are members of the crew. 'Canon' being what it is, Sternbach has been and forever will be wrong, as far as some are concerned.

Thank goodness Star Trek is a fictional universe originating in a series of filmed stories that people can watch and be entertained. We can all fill in the blanks, as it were, with any thing else we can imagine. It's a big sandbox, and it's in my mind. Canon can go take a flying leap.

Rick

 

[throwback]

Aside from a few designs, like the Loknar, the FASA Federation ship classes were incredibly ugly.

 

[Captain Robert April]

Of course, Cetecean Ops is only ever name-dropped onscreen, with no specific elaboration on its function, or even indication that the dolphins are members of the crew. 'Canon' being what it is, Sternbach has been and forever will be wrong, as far as some are concerned.

Thank goodness Star Trek is a fictional universe originating in a series of filmed stories that people can watch and be entertained. We can all fill in the blanks, as it were, with any thing else we can imagine. It's a big sandbox, and it's in my mind. Canon can go take a flying leap.

Rick

Ehhh, whadda you know?

 

[Cary L. Brown]

Of course, Cetecean Ops is only ever name-dropped onscreen, with no specific elaboration on its function, or even indication that the dolphins are members of the crew. 'Canon' being what it is, Sternbach has been and forever will be wrong, as far as some are concerned.

Thank goodness Star Trek is a fictional universe originating in a series of filmed stories that people can watch and be entertained. We can all fill in the blanks, as it were, with any thing else we can imagine. It's a big sandbox, and it's in my mind. Canon can go take a flying leap.

Rick

I have no problem with there being a "cetacean ops" section of the ship, and even of having some trained dolphins (along the lines of dogs, as mentioned earlier) aboard.

Of course, dolphins breath the same air we humans breath, and eat (mostly) the same food we humans eat, so it's not nearly the same thing as having fluorine-breathers aboard, is it?

I'm curious, Rick... what was the origin of the concept of "Cetacean ops?" Was this your idea, or did it come to you from elsewhere (I remember, but could be misremembering, that this was one of Gene Roddenberry's ideas?)

In any case, what did you imagine this being? I think that there are three options:

1) Dolphins as full crewmembers - "Crewman Flipper?"
2) Dolphins as trained "working animals?"
3) Cetacean ops as a large science lab for the study of alien cetacean life?

Is it one of those, or some combination, or something else (at least insofar as you're concerned, I mean)?

With a ship as freakin' HUGE as the 1701-D, I have no problem with having Seaworld Orlando in some portion of the ship.

 

[Cary L. Brown]

Aside from a few designs, like the Loknar, the FASA Federation ship classes were incredibly ugly.

Their earlier work was really very nice. Only near the end did they star to flounder a bit.

I got the impression that the folks who worked on the earlier materials were no longer involved, but I have no personal experience of the internal politics and so forth at FASA before it lost the Trek licence, and then eventually shut down completely.

The Loknar, the Larson, the Chandley, and the Baker... still among the best Trek ships ever designed. The Makin class assault ship, and the larger Continent class assault ship, both are terrific designs. The Anton and Andor class cruisers are great. The Epsilon and Solar class cutters are totally distinct from conventional construction, but still "feel" very Trekkish. And the Ranger class scout remains one of my personal favorites.. a small ship which is not just a rehash of existing components, but which "feels" consistent with the rest of the universe. FASA also gave us the "Derf class tender" which was the first ever in-universe "field service starship". And the Alamo Class Defense Outpost fit in perfectly well with existing TOS and TMP era space station design, while still being unique.

Later on, I get the impression that all the "good ideas" were exhausted, and they were just wringing blood from a stone, trying to come up with new stuff to publish to keep the revenue stream coming in. But the earlier stuff was really very nice, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Mysterion]

Of course, Cetecean Ops is only ever name-dropped onscreen, with no specific elaboration on its function, or even indication that the dolphins are members of the crew. 'Canon' being what it is, Sternbach has been and forever will be wrong, as far as some are concerned.

Thank goodness Star Trek is a fictional universe originating in a series of filmed stories that people can watch and be entertained. We can all fill in the blanks, as it were, with any thing else we can imagine. It's a big sandbox, and it's in my mind. Canon can go take a flying leap.

Rick

You tell 'em, Rick! Ever since I read your TNG Technical Manual, I have imagined in my head that Galaxy class starships have dolphin and orca crew members. And why shouldn't they? If you can accept some of the other sillier stuff that did show up on-screen, the dolphins are a walk (swim?) in the park!

And, I'd love to see Probert's set design realized on-screen someday: http://www.ottens.co.uk/forgottentrek/images/TNG/Aquatics.jpg

(and, FWIW, Diane Duane's novels Dark Mirror and Intellivore feature a dolphin as a Starfleet officer.)

 

[Cary L. Brown]

FYI, since we're on the topic... here's the sketch Andrew Probert made of "Cetacean ops" for one of the earlier iterations of "Star Trek Online."

http://www.ottens.co.uk/forgottentrek/images/TNG/Aquatics.jpg

Perhaps the best indicator that dolphins are "more human" than most animals would be this... not a "good thing" per-se, but it does hint at a level of intelligence not present in most other species...

http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/bizarre/news-bottle-nosed-dolphins-only-animal-kills-fun

 

[Rick Sternbach]

Of course, Cetecean Ops is only ever name-dropped onscreen, with no specific elaboration on its function, or even indication that the dolphins are members of the crew. 'Canon' being what it is, Sternbach has been and forever will be wrong, as far as some are concerned.

Thank goodness Star Trek is a fictional universe originating in a series of filmed stories that people can watch and be entertained. We can all fill in the blanks, as it were, with any thing else we can imagine. It's a big sandbox, and it's in my mind. Canon can go take a flying leap.

Rick

You tell 'em, Rick! Ever since I read your TNG Technical Manual, I have imagined in my head that Galaxy class starships have dolphin and orca crew members. And why shouldn't they? If you can accept some of the other sillier stuff that did show up on-screen, the dolphins are a walk (swim?) in the park!

And, I'd love to see Probert's set design realized on-screen someday: http://www.ottens.co.uk/forgottentrek/images/TNG/Aquatics.jpg

(and, FWIW, Diane Duane's novels Dark Mirror and Intellivore feature a dolphin as a Starfleet officer.)

Heh. Thanks for that. I've got an interview coming up on startrek.com where I pretty much say exactly what I just did above, with a bit of elaboration about things happening during and after production. As for the cetaceans, I can certainly imagine a few bottlenoses in lightweight life support suits on a starship bridge, floating and moving with some integrated antigravs. Since a dolphin sheds a whole layer of skin a day, there's a nicely efficient water-filtration unit. All it takes, kids, is (a wave of the hand) imagination...

Rick

 

[Rick Sternbach]

I'm curious, Rick... what was the origin of the concept of "Cetacean ops?" Was this your idea, or did it come to you from elsewhere (I remember, but could be misremembering, that this was one of Gene Roddenberry's ideas?)

That was one of mine. The whole dolphins-in-space kick for me started around 1974 when I did a painting of a tursiops in an Apollo-style EVA suit, but dolphin shaped and equipped with small manipulators. The trick was to ask them nicely if they wanted to come along to explore the galaxy. I don't know if they're as smart as some believe, but when one hears about parrots with a bazillion-word vocabulary, it makes me wonder if we might, without radical brain-enhancing experimentation, carry on some kind of meaningful dialogue with tursiops or orcas and get them to work with us, aside from "whistling for tidbits" as Douglas Adams mentioned. Or being eaten by some of us in other parts of the world.

Rick

 

[Mysterion]

That was one of mine. The whole dolphins-in-space kick for me started around 1974 when I did a painting of a tursiops in an Apollo-style EVA suit, but dolphin shaped and equipped with small manipulators.

Think I remember seeing that on the cover of either Starlog or Future Life magazine, IIRC. Wish I'd saved it.

The trick was to ask them nicely if they wanted to come along to explore the galaxy.

Reminds me of the old SimEarth computer game. Was playing one day and had managed to goober-up the planet pretty badly. All the sudden, the dolphins had built their own spaceships and we're leaving us behind.

 

[sojourner]

That was one of mine. The whole dolphins-in-space kick for me started around 1974 when I did a painting of a tursiops in an Apollo-style EVA suit, but dolphin shaped and equipped with small manipulators. The trick was to ask them nicely if they wanted to come along to explore the galaxy. I don't know if they're as smart as some believe, but when one hears about parrots with a bazillion-word vocabulary, it makes me wonder if we might, without radical brain-enhancing experimentation, carry on some kind of meaningful dialogue with tursiops or orcas and get them to work with us, aside from "whistling for tidbits" as Douglas Adams mentioned. Or being eaten by some of us in other parts of the world.

Rick

You did that!?! Very cool. It's the image I conjure in my mind everytime I read something by David Brin.

Cover of Omni wasn't it?

 

[Captain Robert April]

That was one of mine. The whole dolphins-in-space kick for me started around 1974 when I did a painting of a tursiops in an Apollo-style EVA suit, but dolphin shaped and equipped with small manipulators.

Think I remember seeing that on the cover of either Starlog or Future Life magazine, IIRC. Wish I'd saved it.

The trick was to ask them nicely if they wanted to come along to explore the galaxy.

Reminds me of the old SimEarth computer game. Was playing one day and had managed to goober-up the planet pretty badly. All the sudden, the dolphins had built their own spaceships and we're leaving us behind.

With the parting message, "So long, and thanks for all the fish."

 

[Unicron]

^ I tend to think that with FASA's designs, they did somewhat better with the Klingon and Romulan ships. Those often were more original and less glaringly kitbashed than their Fed ships tended to be. But they did try.

 

[Rick Sternbach]

That was one of mine. The whole dolphins-in-space kick for me started around 1974 when I did a painting of a tursiops in an Apollo-style EVA suit, but dolphin shaped and equipped with small manipulators. The trick was to ask them nicely if they wanted to come along to explore the galaxy. I don't know if they're as smart as some believe, but when one hears about parrots with a bazillion-word vocabulary, it makes me wonder if we might, without radical brain-enhancing experimentation, carry on some kind of meaningful dialogue with tursiops or orcas and get them to work with us, aside from "whistling for tidbits" as Douglas Adams mentioned. Or being eaten by some of us in other parts of the world.

Rick

You did that!?! Very cool. It's the image I conjure in my mind everytime I read something by David Brin.

Cover of Omni wasn't it?

As Mysterion pointed out, it was the cover of FUTURE LIFE. And I preceded David Brin by a number of years. In maybe 1970 I scribbled a story idea called FIREFIN, about a tursiops that had a peculiar reddish-brown coloration to his dorsal fin, and NASA asked him nicely to come to Mars to help with a landing mission where odd structures had been discovered on the surface. Preceded Hoagland and his bunch as well. Can't recall the details; probably just as well. Some of the details of the suit operation came from correspondence with author Ted Taylor (not the nuclear guy), who had his own ideas about a dolphin "skin suit."

Rick

 

[sojourner]

Oh I had no doubt it pre-dated Brin's work. The image was just so iconic that whenever someone uses "dolphins in space", that was the image that came to mind.

 

[Rick Sternbach]

I'm going to have to smack my brain a little bit - it was SF author Ted Thomas with whom I had the correspondence. Forgive me; it was ages ago.

Rick

 

[Patrickivan]

I'm going to have to smack my brain a little bit - it was SF author Ted Thomas with whom I had the correspondence. Forgive me; it was ages ago.

Rick

Please don't smack it too hard... We all need it!

 

[Rick Sternbach]

I'm going to have to smack my brain a little bit - it was SF author Ted Thomas with whom I had the correspondence. Forgive me; it was ages ago.

Rick

Please don't smack it too hard... We all need it!

Oh, don't worry. The margaritas dull the pain. Actually, I find that tequila allows me to stay somewhat sharper than beer or wine. Not to say that there's any kind of state dependency going on, but I get some really interesting techy ideas on blended margaritas.

Rick