Why did Spiner write himself out of the franchise?

[Cyke101]

The only problem is that Data isn't really dead. His identical brother, B-4, has all of his memories. I bet if Nemesis was a hit, 'Data' would have been back for another movie.

TATV doesn't really count since he wasn't on screen, and he probably spent all of about 20 seconds recording his lines.

The whole idea of B4 was done very stupidly. Hamhandedly written in, and it reduces the uniqueness of the achievement of Data and Lore.

Triplets? Groan

I think part of the problem with the B4 concept was simply because the main story was already about a double of one of our heroes. Sure, I've heard the reasoning that it was to set up parallel struggles between Picard and Data, but it would've been good -- and cleaner -- if plot A and plot B weren't so similar (it works in novels and comics b/c of room, but it's difficult with the time constraints of a movie). With that said, get rid of either the Shinzon or B4 storyline and the other would have perhaps benefited from more time for development.

 

[Rarewolf]

^ They should have had Tom Riker at the Wedding. And just called the film Double Trouble

He is dead. In the same way as if I copy everything from my laptop into another laptop and burn the original then my laptop is 'dead'.

Yes but if you are transferring to a new laptop, your files are on your current laptop, that's your laptop. The old one is redundant. It's yesterdays model. Most of your files wont care what they are running on, the external interface is irrelevant.

It's a bit of a Trigger's Broom situation.

Data/B4 is a bit different. If Data is Windows 7, B4 is Windows 2000.

Data should have a backup anyway. Obviously The Measure Of A Man demonstrated why you couldn't have an infinite number of Datas around, but ethically would would be wrong in having a single transporter clone to activate in the event of the original's destruction?

 

[Sandoval]

^ They should have had Tom Riker at the Wedding. And just called the film Double Trouble

He is dead. In the same way as if I copy everything from my laptop into another laptop and burn the original then my laptop is 'dead'.

Yes but if you are transferring to a new laptop, your files are on your current laptop, that's your laptop. The old one is redundant. It's yesterdays model. Most of your files wont care what they are running on, the external interface is irrelevant.

But again, that doesn't mean that your old laptop has not been destroyed, in the same way that Data transferring his memories into another android doesn't mean that he didn't die.

I'm unsure why people are having difficulty grasping this.

 

[Rarewolf]

What's important though - the container, or the contents?

Is Spock still dead then?

 

[Sandoval]

What's important though - the container, or the contents?

The contents aren't the same. The contents are a copy.

Is Spock still dead then?

No, his original body was regenerated. Data's wasn't.

I'm baffled as to why you're unable to grasp what seems like a relatively simple concept - if you destroy the original and create a copy, then destroy that original, the original is gone. Data copied his memories into another android then got himself killed. Therefore Data is dead.

I can't make it any simpler I'm afraid.

 

[Rarewolf]

Surely thats what a transporter does though?

Spock's body grew up independantly of his memories. (Handy it stoped growing at the same age as the first one died). But he copied his memories etc to Bones. He still retained them to the point of his death.

Then you get a new Spock with no memories, they are transfered from Bones to the new body.

Given Vulcan regeneration was hardly common place (handy he just happened to be left on the one place it could done) what would he have thought would have happened with his memories otherwise? Just the memories to be experienced by othe Vulcans?

 

[sonak]

to clarify, because I can't remember: Did Data give B4 just his memories, or his memories AND personality, because if it's just memories, that's just a small part of identity, but memories plus personality is a pretty big chunk of who one is.

 

[Christopher]

to clarify, because I can't remember: Did Data give B4 just his memories, or his memories AND personality, because if it's just memories, that's just a small part of identity, but memories plus personality is a pretty big chunk of who one is.

The specific reference was to Data's "memory engrams." The intent was to help B-4 develop into his own individual, so it doesn't seem likely that he would've copied his personality too (if that were even doable). And again, the precedent of Lal suggests that downloading memories from one positronic brain to another does not mean that the personality survives.

 

[Sandoval]

Surely thats what a transporter does though?

No, a transporter breaks your body down into its constituent particles and tunnels these through a matter stream and reassembles you somewhere else, supposedly keeping you conscious throughout a la Realm of Fear. What it doesn't do it create a new person somewhere else from new particles, copy your conciousness to create that person's mind and destroy the original.

That's essentially what Data did. And that's why Data died.

 

[Alrik]

I think not bringing up Lore was just laziness.


but the Nemesis plot wouldn't work with Lore, because the crew wouldn't have picked him up and reassembled him.

I completely agree. At the very least, there should have been a short exchange between Data and Picard when they located B-4's head. Something like:

Picard: "Data, could this possibly be Lore?"
Data: "No sir. I checked with Star Fleet when we first picked up on the positronic readings. Lore is still disassembled and being securely stored at Star Fleet Command."

Too much to ask I guess.

 

[Rarewolf]

Well Second Chances handled the Transporter a little differently, perhaps Relics and Rascals too. All in the same season. Not to mention Our Man Bashir's use of transporter patterns.

What about Voyager's Doctor? Uploaded to a mobile emitter - he couldn't be activated on Voyager when his emitter was on a planet. Or when transfered via an alien Network to the Alpha Quadrant. A program in the purest form?

 

[JarodRussell]

What about Voyager's Doctor? Uploaded to a mobile emitter - he couldn't be activated on Voyager when his emitter was on a planet. Or when transfered via an alien Network to the Alpha Quadrant. A program in the purest form?

That's another stupidity. It would be no problem to have the program on both the ship's computer and the mobile thing running at the same time. And every now and then there's a synchronization process that updates both entities. That's the very basic principle of mobile and distributed systems.

 

[sonak]

to clarify, because I can't remember: Did Data give B4 just his memories, or his memories AND personality, because if it's just memories, that's just a small part of identity, but memories plus personality is a pretty big chunk of who one is.

The specific reference was to Data's "memory engrams." The intent was to help B-4 develop into his own individual, so it doesn't seem likely that he would've copied his personality too (if that were even doable). And again, the precedent of Lal suggests that downloading memories from one positronic brain to another does not mean that the personality survives.

yeah that makes sense. Just having a bunch of the being's memories doesn't mean the personality would start coming to the surface.

 

[Sandoval]

One might wonder why a deactivated android is putting out a positronic signal strong enough to be detected by a starship light-years away. They even state that the signal is only known to be producted by Soong-type androids, these being Lore and Data (I'll discount Juliana Tainer since she was virtually undetectable).

But still, Soong-type androids put out a positronic signature so powerful that one can detect it through space across vast distances? Since when?

Either Starfleet sensors became a hell of a lot more sensitive to positronic signatures in the years leading up to 2379 or these androids were never generating such signatures before. Either way, someone better lock Data in a lead-lined vault when any sort of hostilities since the guy is drawing more attention to the Enterprise than a target painted on the hull.

 

[JarodRussell]

And they should have simply left B4 or Data aboard the Narada, erm, Scimitar, and they could have targeted the positronic signal.

 

[Sandoval]

Or beamed a whole mess of photon torpedoes over instead of using that last beam-out to send one elderly man with a phaser rifle.

 

[SheliakBob]

Deep down, where what little hope for the future I have still lives, I believe that Spiner will come back to do the voice for a totally CGI'd Data when the inevitable TNG nostalgia hits hard enough to bring it back to the screen.

Mind you, leprechauns live in that same neighborhood so...
not with the breath-holding at this moment.

 

[Sandoval]

Deep down, where what little hope for the future I have still lives, I believe that Spiner will come back to do the voice for a totally CGI'd Data when the inevitable TNG nostalgia hits hard enough to bring it back to the screen.

Mind you, leprechauns live in that same neighborhood so...
not with the breath-holding at this moment.

Not gonna happen. Putting aside the fact that there will never be the demand for another outing, have you seen the state on most of them now?

You'd need a CGI Jonathan Frakes to go with him.

 

[Saxman1]

Deep down, where what little hope for the future I have still lives, I believe that Spiner will come back to do the voice for a totally CGI'd Data when the inevitable TNG nostalgia hits hard enough to bring it back to the screen.

Mind you, leprechauns live in that same neighborhood so...
not with the breath-holding at this moment.

Not gonna happen. Putting aside the fact that there will never be the demand for another outing, have you seen the state on most of them now?

You'd need a CGI Jonathan Frakes to go with him.

Troi ain't looking so hot, either, with the horrible face-lift she got around the time of TATV.

 

[xortex]

there are two possibilities.

Yes, he's that stupid.

He figures someone sometime has to be altruistic and not greedy for once.