SW blu-rays have changes to the films again

[Set Harth]

Doesn't answer my question.

Stoklasa seems to be one of those revisionists who see the Sith and the Jedi as equivalent. But it's probably all a "joke".

Except I read countless pro-PT threads here and at other web forums.

Yet, in your own words, there are only two ways the document can possibly change your mind:
1) redefining the laws of the universe;
2) completely rewriting the prequels.

Thus, if the document tells the truth about the actual content of the prequels and doesn't rewrite any of it, there is no way you could be influenced by it, because facts don't change your mind. As I said before, you don't really care whether Stoklasa is telling the truth or not.

 

[TremblingBluStar]

Stoklasa seems to be one of those revisionists who see the Sith and the Jedi as equivalent. But it's probably all a "joke".

Jedi who cheat at gambling are, I guess.

But then the OT did establish the Jedi are wise, honorable, and never lie.

Except when Obi Wan and Yoda lied. Repeatedly.

 

[Set Harth]

Except when Obi Wan and Yoda lied. Repeatedly.

Yoda never lied once in the entire saga.

 

[TremblingBluStar]

Yoda never lied once in the entire saga.

"You seek Yoda! Take you to him, I will."

 

[Set Harth]

Yoda never lied once in the entire saga.

"You seek Yoda! Take you to him, I will."

And he did. But you said repeatedly. What are his other so-called "lies"?

Jedi who cheat at gambling are, I guess.

And you guess wrong ( but at least that explains why you don't object when Stoklasa does it ).

But then the OT did establish the Jedi are wise, honorable, and never lie.

Another all-or-nothing scheme, eh?

 

[Guartho]

Yoda and Obi-wan's many falsehoods have been well documented elsewhere. I'm not going to repeat any of them for you here because that would be a waste of time. If you want though, what I will do is repeat over and over in multiple posts that such lies exist. I will not however tell you what any of them are. This is a perfectly valid and reasonable way for me to defend TremblingBluStar's statement.

 

[EnsignRicky]

The best I can come up with was that Yoda told Luke that only a fully trained Jedi could defeat Vader. Then when he returns to complete that training Yoda basically says "Eh, I'm old and tired your good to go kid."

admittedly, even I think that one's a little thin; Overall, Yoda was a pretty stand up little dude.

 

[TremblingBluStar]

The best I can come up with was that Yoda told Luke that only a fully trained Jedi could defeat Vader. Then when he returns to complete that training Yoda basically says "Eh, I'm old and tired your good to go kid."

admittedly, even I think that one's a little thin; Overall, Yoda was a pretty stand up little dude.

That was the other big one I was thinking of.

He throws a fit when Luke leaves, saying he needs to finish his training.

When Luke returns, he says "sorry, I mean you are done with your training. Sorry I wasted your time".

Yoda and Obi-wan's many falsehoods have been well documented elsewhere. I'm not going to repeat any of them for you here because that would be a waste of time. If you want though, what I will do is repeat over and over in multiple posts that such lies exist. I will not however tell you what any of them are. This is a perfectly valid and reasonable way for me to defend TremblingBluStar's statement.

I wrote a 213 page essay on them.

 

[Hound of UIster]

You have too much free time on your hands.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

With respect to Luke's training, here's my take on it (source=http://www.blueharvest.net/).

YODA: Stopped they must be. On this depends. Only a fully trained Jedi Knight with the Force as his ally will conquer Vader and his Emperor. If you end your training now, if you choose the quick and easy path, as Vader did, you will become an agent of evil.

If Luke ends his training and chooses the quick and easy path in the way that Vader did, he will become an agent of evil. Evidently, Luke did all these bad things except do them exactly the way Vader them. He did not give in to the onslaught he faced, and was able to back out (or rather fall off a cliff) in time, which was not an easy thing to do, so he skates. Luke is not a Jedi, and although he will eventually defeat Vader and become one, he will not defeat the Emperor. Vader ends up doing that.

LUKE
But I need your help. I've come back to complete the training.

YODA
No more training do you require. Already know you that which you need.

Yoda sighs, and lies back on his bed.

LUKE
Then I am a Jedi?

YODA (shakes his head)
Ohhh. Not yet. One thing remains: Vader. You must confront Vader. Then, only then, a Jedi will you be. And confront him you will.

Luke knows that which he needs to know, but he is not yet a Jedi. Indeed, it will be Vader who destroys the Emperor; Luke is not powerful enough to destroy the Emperor himself. He is totally clueless about Force lightning. What Luke needs to do is save Vader, not directly defeat the Emperor, and he doesn't need to be a Jedi to begin that quest. Completing this quest of saving Vader will require Luke to stay on the good side. It will require that Luke wield enough power, control it, and not be consumed by it, for him to become a Jedi.

 

[Ghrakh]

My take on the Yoda introduction and not telling Luke outright he was Yoda is pretty simple. He's testing Luke's responses. Yoda stealing the flashlight, clowning around was to gauge Luke's temperament. Luke crashed in some random place on the planet and then gets pissed that the one person he meets doesn't take him to Yoda quick enough. Yoda was probably thinking "why should I train this guy?" I though it was great character development.

 

[TremblingBluStar]

Luke knows that which he needs to know, but he is not yet a Jedi. Indeed, it will be Vader who destroys the Emperor; Luke is not powerful enough to destroy the Emperor himself. He is totally clueless about Force lightning. What Luke needs to do is save Vader, not directly defeat the Emperor, and he doesn't need to be a Jedi to begin that quest. Completing this quest of saving Vader will require Luke to stay on the good side. It will require that Luke wield enough power, control it, and not be consumed by it, for him to become a Jedi.

If that were the case, Yoda should have told Luke he needs to turn Vader back to the light side, not confront him. I could see Yoda telling Luke he will be a Jedi once he confronts his fears, being Vader, but why wouldn't he tell him this way back in ESB when he is off to save Han and Leia. It's a strange disconnect between the two films.

My take on the Yoda introduction and not telling Luke outright he was Yoda is pretty simple. He's testing Luke's responses. Yoda stealing the flashlight, clowning around was to gauge Luke's temperament. Luke crashed in some random place on the planet and then gets pissed that the one person he meets doesn't take him to Yoda quick enough. Yoda was probably thinking "why should I train this guy?" I though it was great character development.

I get that too. It was intended to be an Ah-hah moment for the audience, and it worked quite well.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Well, part of turning Vader back is also besting him in a duel. Luke has to be at least that strong, and he's certainly not ready for that in TESB.

 

[TremblingBluStar]

Well, part of turning Vader back is also besting him in a duel. Luke has to be at least that strong, and he's certainly not ready for that in TESB.

Then why was he ready in RoTJ? There was no indication that he had done extra training in between the films. I guess he could have grown in skill by making his own light saber and defeating Jabba, but that was never mentioned or explained as being the reason.

No biggie either way. I think it was just an easy way for the writers to wrap up the Luke training plot from the previous film.

 

[EnsignRicky]

Obi-Wan was more of a straight out liar whereas Yoda was more guilty of the omission of truth. I mean if you think about it, it is pretty reprehensible to train a guy to kill a man without even having the common decency of telling him that the man is his father. They were basically outright trying to trick him. Hell, Obi-Wan even told him the guy killed his father to really instill him with bloodlust. They didn't even respect Luke enough to give him all the facts and ask for his input. Well, thank the Force Luke learned the truth anyway, as his plan to turn his father back (an idea Obi-Wan actually thumbed his nose at) probably worked out far better than had he gone off saber blazing on a road of bloody revenge.


Now you guys have me doing it.

 

[EnsignRicky]

Obi-Wan was more of a straight out liar whereas Yoda was more guilty of the omission of truth. I mean if you think about it, it is pretty reprehensible to train a guy to kill a man without even having the common decency of telling him that the man is his father. They were basically outright trying to trick him. Hell, Obi-Wan even told him the guy killed his father to really instill him with bloodlust. They didn't even respect Luke enough to give him all the facts and ask for his input. Well, thank the Force Luke learned the truth anyway, as his plan to turn his father back (an idea Obi-Wan actually thumbed his nose at) probably worked out far better than had he gone off saber blazing on a road of bloody revenge.


Now you guys have me doing it.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Well, part of turning Vader back is also besting him in a duel. Luke has to be at least that strong, and he's certainly not ready for that in TESB.

Then why was he ready in RoTJ? There was no indication that he had done extra training in between the films. I guess he could have grown in skill by making his own light saber and defeating Jabba, but that was never mentioned or explained as being the reason.

I disagree.

There is a very strong indication that Luke has done something. Not only has he (based on the original theatrical edition) somehow acquired a new lightsaber, he has a new wardrobe of black with a black robe and hood. Furthermore, and most importantly, Luke has mastered the Jedi mind trick and has learned either to Force-strangle or otherwise to Force-knockout pig guards all but effortlessly. He has also honed his prescience, and now walks around with his hands clasped. He's a different person.

Some amount of time has elapsed, but it's not exactly clear how much. Months at most I would guess (Wookieepedia claims one year but the novelization says six months).

We do know (or at least are led to believe) that Luke has not been back to Dagobah. Absolutely we should have been shown how Luke gained these abilities, but to me the inference pretty clearly is that he gained them on his own. Given that Luke had chosen to rescue Han, it makes sense that he would not go back to Dagobah until he was ready to stay indefinitely to complete his training. Furthermore, Yoda had given him a lot to think about in TESB, in particular about believing in his abilities.

My interpretation is that his resourcefulness in the meantime in his application of the Force to rescue Han bumped him up at least one level before he returned to Dagobah.

 

[General_Phoenix]

It's a bit weird that they are conditioning Luke to confront Vader, but not the Emperor. Vader, even though he's strong in the force, is basically a shell of his former self in the PT - that big life support system he wears has to diminish his abilities somewhat. Plus it's stated (by Lucas I believe) that Luke has the same potential as his dad, regardless of Luke being trained at an older age. But the Emperor is the real threat, so if Luke kills Vader and the Emperor's still around..then what? The Empire would still continue. The Emperor almost seems like an afterthought to Yoda and Obi-Wan, unless they counted on Vader turning on the Emperor all along.

 

[Guartho]

Maybe the ghosts of Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan gave Luke some correspondence courses while he was biding his time on Tatooine.

 

[TremblingBluStar]

There is a very strong indication that Luke has done something. Not only has he (based on the original theatrical edition) somehow acquired a new lightsaber, he has a new wardrobe of black with a black robe and hood. Furthermore, and most importantly, Luke has mastered the Jedi mind trick and has learned either to Force-strangle or otherwise to Force-knockout pig guards all but effortlessly. He has also honed his prescience, and now walks around with his hands clasped. He's a different person.

Well, I agree that he is certainly stronger and behaves differently than in Empire, but we are never told if that is due to his training with Yoda or not. Maybe Yoda taught him how to Force choke.

Either way, it begs the question why would Luke spend months training on his own instead of returning to Dagobah and training with Yoda.