Another Lit Wish List Thread

[Sci]

Do you think that the US Navy would offer a new ship to a Captain who stole and aircraft carrier and destroyed the same, even if he did stop a member of Al-Quida in the process?

Depends. In doing so, did he also stop that member of al-Qaeda from acquiring a thermonuclear warhead (as Kirk kept the Klingons from acquiring Genesis), revive a heroic Navy captain thought dead (the resurrection of Spock), prevent the capture of that aircraft carrier by al-Qaeda (as Kirk kept the Klingons from capturing the Enterprise), and then finish it all off by saving all life in Washington, D.C., from imminent death (as Kirk saved Earth from the Probe)?

Seeing as the Genesis Device had already detonated it would be more akin to allowing him to explore the crater that said thermonuclear bomb had created. Kruge had the date from Valkris, I've always wonder just what he hoped to gain by visiting the Genesis Planet and then tipping off the Federation to his presence by destroying the Grissom and attacking the Enterprise. Enter the system, take a few scans of the plant and bugger off with your booty. Good thing Kruge was an idiot and couldn't help starting a fight he should have had no chance at all in.

In other words, Kirk kept him from sharing any of his intel in how Genesis worked. Good enough for me.

Also, it's interesting how only Kirk ever gets rewarded in these capers. It's like the rest of the crew don't do a thing exxcept make him look good.

What are you talking about? Kirk's officers' charges were all dismissed, and then they were all posted to the Enterprise-A. They received a better deal than Kirk, who was demoted in rank.

 

[DrBashir]

Kirk didn't know Kruge had the intel. For all we know iit's still on the BOP somewhere.

So, the crew dows all the stuff Kirk does with the exception of kicking Kruge in the face. They get to stay exactly where there are and Kirk gets exactly what he wants, a demotion to Captain. None of the crew get an award or promotion even though they all played a part in saving Earth?

It's like in the latest movie, Kirk gets command of a starship right out of the academy and Spock, who was right there defeating Nero as well as the rest of the crew all doing their part as weel get nothing. Spock didn't even get offered a spot on the ship, he had to request it. Everyone else got assigned to the Enterprise.

 

[Sci]

So, the crew dows all the stuff Kirk does with the exception of kicking Kruge in the face. They get to stay exactly where there are and Kirk gets exactly what he wants, a demotion to Captain. None of the crew get an award or promotion even though they all played a part in saving Earth?

Having charges against you dismissed is a reward.

 

[DrBashir]

Thanks for saving everyone on Earth from being killed. As a reward, we aren't going to fire you.

 

[Sci]

Thanks for saving everyone on Earth from being killed. As a reward, we aren't going to fire you.

More like, as a reward, we aren't going to throw you in military prison or give you a dishonorable discharge for having conspired in stealing a starship and being complicit in its destruction.

Like it or not, that is a serious charge -- comparing it to the theft and subsequent destruction of an aircraft carrier is reasonable -- and as such, dropping that charge is a serious reward for good behavior in mitigating circumstances.

 

[F. King Daniel]

It's like in the latest movie, Kirk gets command of a starship right out of the academy and Spock, who was right there defeating Nero as well as the rest of the crew all doing their part as weel get nothing. Spock didn't even get offered a spot on the ship, he had to request it. Everyone else got assigned to the Enterprise.

While this is going off-topic, and I apologize for that, Spock was leaving Starfleet until his elder self stopped him. Uhura became chief communications officer. Scotty chief engineer. Sulu the helmsman and McCoy CMO. They very much "got stuff" - in fact, they're all doing the jobs they trained for on Starfleet's flagship. What more is there?

 

[JD]

Thanks for saving everyone on Earth from being killed. As a reward, we aren't going to fire you.

Thanks for saving everyone on Earth from being killed. As a reward, we aren't going to fire you.

More like, as a reward, we aren't going to throw you in military prison or give you a dishonorable discharge for having conspired in stealing a starship and being complicit in its destruction.

Like it or not, that is a serious charge -- comparing it to the theft and subsequent destruction of an aircraft carrier is reasonable -- and as such, dropping that charge is a serious reward for good behavior in mitigating circumstances.

Not to mention the fact that they were also reassigned to a state of the art ship of the line, rather than working on a 20+ year old training vessel like most apparently were for the last few years. I think that would also count as a reward.

 

[F. King Daniel]

One that's new to my wish list is a book set in the Star Trek: Online universe featuring the new Enterprise-F and her crew. Never played Online--nor have any intention to--but seeing the winning fan-based design that CBS and Cryptic Studios finally settled on really kind of stirred up my post-24th Century imagination again.

Design differences between the Enterprise-E and the Enterprise-F:
(warning: really huge photo)
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/9875/enterprisecompare.jpg

Odd surface texture on that design. It makes it look like a diecast toy of a starship rather than a huge starship.

I think it's meant to resemble the hull texture of the Wells-class USS Relativity.

BTW, thanks for the link, C.E. Evans

 

[TheAlmanac]

Do you think that the US Navy would offer a new ship to a Captain who stole and aircraft carrier and destroyed the same, even if he did stop a member of Al-Quida in the process?

Depends. In doing so, did he also stop that member of al-Qaeda from acquiring a thermonuclear warhead (as Kirk kept the Klingons from acquiring Genesis), revive a heroic Navy captain thought dead (the resurrection of Spock), prevent the capture of that aircraft carrier by al-Qaeda (as Kirk kept the Klingons from capturing the Enterprise), and then finish it all off by saving all life in Washington, D.C., from imminent death (as Kirk saved Earth from the Probe)?

And of course, President Obama could summarily dismiss all of the charges but one, as he would be presiding over the trial...oh wait.

 

[captcalhoun]

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/9875/enterprisecompare.jpg

so, the E-F is basically a bigger, fuglier E-E? wow, that's REALLY creative, isn't it?

should've let Sean T or Mark R design it...

 

[DrBashir]

It's like in the latest movie, Kirk gets command of a starship right out of the academy and Spock, who was right there defeating Nero as well as the rest of the crew all doing their part as weel get nothing. Spock didn't even get offered a spot on the ship, he had to request it. Everyone else got assigned to the Enterprise.

While this is going off-topic, and I apologize for that, Spock was leaving Starfleet until his elder self stopped him. Uhura became chief communications officer. Scotty chief engineer. Sulu the helmsman and McCoy CMO. They very much "got stuff" - in fact, they're all doing the jobs they trained for on Starfleet's flagship. What more is there?

That's the jobs they were doing already. Scotty was AWOL from his post on Delta Vega for no good reason other than tagging along with Kirk and being comedy relief. Kirk wasn't assigned to the ship, he was basically AWOL and a stoway. Yet he got promoted and none of the others did. Their reward is they get to serve under Kirk.

Even Spock, who at great risk, piloted the Jellyfish into the Narada didn't even get offered a promotion or a place on the Enterprise. He had to ask Kirk for it.

If they were only doing the jobs they had been trained for Kirk would have been a junior officer right along with the rest of them.

 

[DrBashir]

Miranda Jones was human and never visted Earth but did spend much time on Vulcan. Perhaps it was offered to name the ship after her according to Vulcan custom as opposed to human.

You don't get it. Ship names aren't "offered" in that way. They're nominated by various people, a committee reviews their suitability and makes recommendations to the cabinet member in charge of the fleet, and that person chooses the names.

And why the hell would it be Miranda Jones of all people? Do you seriously imagine she's the only Miranda in the whole damn 23rd century? It's not like her accomplishment is that huge a deal in the grand scheme of things. If it were named after a person named Miranda, the odds are hugely in favor of it being someone else of that name.

Are we to assume then that there's no other Vulcans named T'Pau or Surak then?

Why not Miranda Jones? We didn't get a whole lot of background on her but she's obvously very important to Fderation/Medusan relations. Who's to say that she hasn't brought any number of cultures into the Federation or at least normalized relations with them? Perhaps she's an expert at non-humanoid relations.

Different cultures would have different standards for naming vessels. It's unlikely that the Klingons would name a ship someone who advocated peace at any cost. The Bynars probably don't use names at all but would just use identification numbers. According to FASA, Andorian ships are always armed. Naming an unarmed would probably be taked as a grave insult. Is it not possible that there's a culture that would only use someone's first name for whatever reason?

The Federation is a big and diverse place. There's no reason to impose 20th century limitations on it. Let's expand our horizons a bit, shall we?

 

[Christopher]

And why the hell would it be Miranda Jones of all people? Do you seriously imagine she's the only Miranda in the whole damn 23rd century? It's not like her accomplishment is that huge a deal in the grand scheme of things. If it were named after a person named Miranda, the odds are hugely in favor of it being someone else of that name.

Are we to assume then that there's no other Vulcans named T'Pau or Surak then?

What the hell? I'm the one pointing out that it doesn't make sense to assume a name is one-of-a-kind. Can't you even keep track of which side of the debate you're on?

Why not Miranda Jones? We didn't get a whole lot of background on her but she's obvously very important to Fderation/Medusan relations. Who's to say that she hasn't brought any number of cultures into the Federation or at least normalized relations with them? Perhaps she's an expert at non-humanoid relations.

Perhaps, but the odds are immensely against it. I'll never understand people who think it's enough to make their case if they can demonstrate there's a nonzero probability of something happening if enough bizarre and unlikely conditions fell into place to bring it about. Sure, it may not be completely impossible, but that's a far, far cry from demonstrating that it's remotely plausible.

 

[C.E. Evans]

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/9875/enterprisecompare.jpg

so, the E-F is basically a bigger, fuglier E-E?

Nope.

wow, that's REALLY creative, isn't it?

Actually it is. I think what the folks at Cryptic did was look at the timeframe they were working in (sometime around the year 2413 or so) and decide on a design that could be more advanced than the Sovereign-class and yet be a contemporary design to it. A better analogy might be how the Enterprise-C was to the Enterprise-B.

should've let Sean T or Mark R design it...

I think the contest winner, Adam Ihle, did a great job with his initial design.
http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/9994/fullconcept.jpg
http://ihlecreations.com/Enterprise/images/Concept-11.jpg
Cryptic then went about making modifications and other tweaks so that it fit within the Star Trek: Online universe.
http://foundrymissions.com/wp-conte...//2011/06/EnterpriseF_Concept_TMarrone_th.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-U5HpPXtGT...Tc/s1600/sto_screen_enterprisef_072211_05.jpg

 

[DrBashir]

And why the hell would it be Miranda Jones of all people? Do you seriously imagine she's the only Miranda in the whole damn 23rd century? It's not like her accomplishment is that huge a deal in the grand scheme of things. If it were named after a person named Miranda, the odds are hugely in favor of it being someone else of that name.

Are we to assume then that there's no other Vulcans named T'Pau or Surak then?

What the hell? I'm the one pointing out that it doesn't make sense to assume a name is one-of-a-kind. Can't you even keep track of which side of the debate you're on?

Why not Miranda Jones? We didn't get a whole lot of background on her but she's obvously very important to Fderation/Medusan relations. Who's to say that she hasn't brought any number of cultures into the Federation or at least normalized relations with them? Perhaps she's an expert at non-humanoid relations.

Perhaps, but the odds are immensely against it. I'll never understand people who think it's enough to make their case if they can demonstrate there's a nonzero probability of something happening if enough bizarre and unlikely conditions fell into place to bring it about. Sure, it may not be completely impossible, but that's a far, far cry from demonstrating that it's remotely plausible.

I'm pointing out that we have seen ships named T'Pau and Surak. Since they do not have last names, as you say is required, then they must be unique names.

And why the hell would it be Miranda Jones of all people? Do you seriously imagine she's the only Miranda in the whole damn 23rd century? It's not like her accomplishment is that huge a deal in the grand scheme of things. If it were named after a person named Miranda, the odds are hugely in favor of it being someone else of that name.

In TOS we saw Miranda Jones, T'Pau and Surak exactly the same number of times. once. Do you want me to belive that there's only one Vulcan named T'Pau? Is it possible that the Miranda class is named after Miranda Jones? Sure it is. Is it plausable? Who knows until a writer says one way or the other. Nothing has been established so Schrodinger's Cat is both alive and dead at this point. Plausible doesn't enter into it. Star Trek is full of inplausibilities.

 

[Sci]

Do you think that the US Navy would offer a new ship to a Captain who stole and aircraft carrier and destroyed the same, even if he did stop a member of Al-Quida in the process?

Depends. In doing so, did he also stop that member of al-Qaeda from acquiring a thermonuclear warhead (as Kirk kept the Klingons from acquiring Genesis), revive a heroic Navy captain thought dead (the resurrection of Spock), prevent the capture of that aircraft carrier by al-Qaeda (as Kirk kept the Klingons from capturing the Enterprise), and then finish it all off by saving all life in Washington, D.C., from imminent death (as Kirk saved Earth from the Probe)?

And of course, President Obama could summarily dismiss all of the charges but one, as he would be presiding over the trial...oh wait.

To be fair, I think it makes sense that the Federation -- being an union of alien worlds -- would have some legal traditions that don't resemble anything from Earth. Personally, I like to think that the idea that certain especially important courts-martial can be conducted by the legislature and head of government actually comes from Tellar, but that's just my speculation.

 

[DrBashir]

Depends. In doing so, did he also stop that member of al-Qaeda from acquiring a thermonuclear warhead (as Kirk kept the Klingons from acquiring Genesis), revive a heroic Navy captain thought dead (the resurrection of Spock), prevent the capture of that aircraft carrier by al-Qaeda (as Kirk kept the Klingons from capturing the Enterprise), and then finish it all off by saving all life in Washington, D.C., from imminent death (as Kirk saved Earth from the Probe)?

And of course, President Obama could summarily dismiss all of the charges but one, as he would be presiding over the trial...oh wait.

To be fair, I think it makes sense that the Federation -- being an union of alien worlds -- would have some legal traditions that don't resemble anything from Earth. Personally, I like to think that the idea that certain especially important courts-martial can be conducted by the legislature and head of government actually comes from Tellar, but that's just my speculation.

Exactly. Why must the Federation resemble 21st century Earth governments? Let's nor forget that T'Pau was said to be the only person to ever turn down a seat on the Federation Council which makes it appear that it's members are appointed rather than elected.

The Council is also said to be making policy in the aftermath of Genesis to it appears that they have actual power rather than being cerimonial or simply advisory. COuld it be that the Federation is not a democratic body?

 

[Sci]

And of course, President Obama could summarily dismiss all of the charges but one, as he would be presiding over the trial...oh wait.

To be fair, I think it makes sense that the Federation -- being an union of alien worlds -- would have some legal traditions that don't resemble anything from Earth. Personally, I like to think that the idea that certain especially important courts-martial can be conducted by the legislature and head of government actually comes from Tellar, but that's just my speculation.

Exactly. Why must the Federation resemble 21st century Earth governments?

Well, it probably resembles at least parts of modern Earth democracies because those systems have evolved out of an attempt to do the same thing the Federation would need to do: Give everyone a voice and find a way to reconcile differing agendas into a coherent policy.

Let's nor forget that T'Pau was said to be the only person to ever turn down a seat on the Federation Council which makes it appear that it's members are appointed rather than elected.

The line is ambiguous enough that this could be interpreted in any number of ways. For instance, given how widely popular they were, if Franklin D. Roosevelt in 1936, or Ronald Reagan in 1984, or George Washington in 1788 or 1792, had declined to run, it would completely fair to say that they had "turned down the presidency," even though they all were elected. So it's possible that T'Pau was so universally respected that, had she chosen to stand for election, she would almost certainly have won. On the other hand, it could mean that seats on the Federation Council are appointed rather than elected, yes.

Or, it could mean what the novels have established: That every Federation Member gets to determine for itself how its Federation Councillor will be determined. So Betazed's Federation Councillor is popularly elected, while Bajor's is appointed by the First Minister with the approval of the Chamber of Ministers, while Andor's is appointed by the Presider based upon which party wins a majority in the Parliament Andoria.

The Council is also said to be making policy in the aftermath of Genesis to it appears that they have actual power rather than being cerimonial or simply advisory. COuld it be that the Federation is not a democratic body?

No. Kirk establishes very clearly that the Federation is a democracy in "Errand of Mercy," and Sisko refers to the Federation President as having been democratically elected in "Paradise Lost." (The Federation's democratic nature is also confirmed in the novels, especially A Time for War, A Time for Peace and Articles of the Federation.)

Canonically, the Federation is a democracy.

 

[DrBashir]

To be fair, I think it makes sense that the Federation -- being an union of alien worlds -- would have some legal traditions that don't resemble anything from Earth. Personally, I like to think that the idea that certain especially important courts-martial can be conducted by the legislature and head of government actually comes from Tellar, but that's just my speculation.

Exactly. Why must the Federation resemble 21st century Earth governments?

Well, it probably resembles at least parts of modern Earth democracies because those systems have evolved out of an attempt to do the same thing the Federation would need to do: Give everyone a voice and find a way to reconcile differing agendas into a coherent policy.

Let's nor forget that T'Pau was said to be the only person to ever turn down a seat on the Federation Council which makes it appear that it's members are appointed rather than elected.

The line is ambiguous enough that this could be interpreted in any number of ways. For instance, given how widely popular they were, if Franklin D. Roosevelt in 1936, or Ronald Reagan in 1984, or George Washington in 1788 or 1792, had declined to run, it would completely fair to say that they had "turned down the presidency," even though they all were elected. So it's possible that T'Pau was so universally respected that, had she chosen to stand for election, she would almost certainly have won. On the other hand, it could mean that seats on the Federation Council are appointed rather than elected, yes.

Or, it could mean what the novels have established: That every Federation Member gets to determine for itself how its Federation Councillor will be determined. So Betazed's Federation Councillor is popularly elected, while Bajor's is appointed by the First Minister with the approval of the Chamber of Ministers, while Andor's is appointed by the Presider based upon which party wins a majority in the Parliament Andoria.

The Council is also said to be making policy in the aftermath of Genesis to it appears that they have actual power rather than being cerimonial or simply advisory. COuld it be that the Federation is not a democratic body?

No. Kirk establishes very clearly that the Federation is a democracy in "Errand of Mercy," and Sisko refers to the Federation President as having been democratically elected in "Paradise Lost." (The Federation's democratic nature is also confirmed in the novels, especially A Time for War, A Time for Peace and Articles of the Federation.)

Canonically, the Federation is a democracy.

But what kind of Democracy is it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy#Forms

The Federation as an Athenian Democracy with at least some representatives chosen by lot would be an interesting choice. Perhaps Federation citizens are given one "Get Out of ServiceFree" tickets. If your name comes up a second time you cannot turn it down. T'pau may have been selected to serve on the Federation wide Council. It may not apply just to the Federation Council but to some sort of planetary or sector wide legislature as well. We have very little data on the politics to say which way the council is selected. The president may be selected from the council members and not in a Federation wide election although KRAD's Articles of the Federation went this route. Not all Fedeartion planets need to be democracies. Ardana wasn't.

Whatever form the Federation government takes it would probably look somewhat odd to us if it uses elements of Earth, Vulcan, Andorian and Tellarite government systems and perhaps others. Who knows what the Fundamental Declaration of the Martian Colonies and the Statutes of Alpha III contain?

 

[DrBashir]

So even if Marvick had designed that class and had wanted to name it after his girlfriend, he would've had to submit the name for approval, and then higher-ups would've deliberated on whether to recommend it. They'd probably investigate where the suggestion came from and why it was proposed, to determine whether it was appropriate to use for a ship representing the UFP. Considering that Marvick was obsessed with Miranda and practically stalking her, I doubt such a suggestion would've gone over well.

We don't know how long Miranda and Marvick have been working together. The work with the Medusans could have been on and off over a ten year period. Miranda didn't seem too worried about being around him at the start. it was just when Kollos actually came on board that his jealousy came to the fore.

On the subject of single names I found this:

"Indonesians do not generally use the Western naming practice of a given first name and a family last name. The majority of Indonesians do not have family names as the West would understand them but, such names as are given, are geographically and culturally specific

Example:
Child's name: GemaFather's name: SuparmanMother's name: WulandariOn the birth certificate, the child's name would be written as: Gema child of Suparman and Wulandari"

This seems similar to how T'lar adress Sarek in TSFS. However, we don't see the Surak with Surak, child of Spiff, child of Spork on the hull, just the single name Surak.

Just because American ships named after people use eithe first AND last name OR last name only does not mean that all other cultures do the same. Alien races are more likely to have even more unusual naming schemes.