Another Lit Wish List Thread

[Christopher]

Anglocentrism nothing. Star Trek has a long history of Shakespeare-centrism. In a franchise with titles like "Dagger of the Mind," "The Conscience of the King," "By Any Other Name," "Wink of an Eye," "All Our Yesterdays," "How Sharper Than a Serpent's Tooth," and The Undiscovered Country, it's a pretty safe bet that anything named "Miranda" is going to be a Tempest reference.

 

[Greg Cox]

Anglocentrism nothing. Star Trek has a long history of Shakespeare-centrism. In a franchise with titles like "Dagger of the Mind," "The Conscience of the King," "By Any Other Name," "Wink of an Eye," "All Our Yesterdays," "How Sharper Than a Serpent's Tooth," and The Undiscovered Country, it's a pretty safe bet that anything named "Miranda" is going to be a Tempest reference.

Not to mention that TOS was partially inspired by Forbidden Planet, which was inspired by The Tempest . . . .

 

[DrBashir]

However, it has never been established within the show just where the class name came from so there's nothing stopping someone from deciding it's from a source other than The Tempest. For all we know it was named after Miranda Jones and they used her first name since there was already a USS Jones in service.

 

[Christopher]

^Ahh, but Miranda Jones was also named (by the episode writer) for Miranda from The Tempest. She even paraphrases Miranda's line "O brave new world that has such people in it."

 

[Herbert1]

Three ships of the Royal Navy have also been named Miranda.

Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Miranda

Though I cannot find a direct reference for Miranda, many ships in the Royal Navy have been named for characters in Shakespeare's plays.

Avenger was a name first used by David J Nielsen, aka Aridas Sofia, of the Star Fleet Printing Office in 1983 for his U.S.S. Avenger Class General Plans the first blueprints to appear for the starship featured in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. He named the class after the U.S.S. Avenger (MCM-1) because the name had a swashbuckler quality to it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Avenger_%28MCM-1%29

The name was also used by Federation Frontiers in 1998 with the Avenger Class Heavy Frigate General Plans by Michael C. Rupprecht and Alex Rosenweig.

 

[DrBashir]

Larry Marvick could have also designed the Miranda class, naming it after the love of his life and only indirectly for the character from the play. After all, he did design the Constitution class. Who's to say he only designed one ship class? And we don't know how long he was working with Miranda Jones or when the Miranda class entered service, at least within canon. We know that an early version was in service at Vanguard.

 

[Herbert1]

Larry Marvick could have also designed the Miranda class, naming it after the love of his life and only indirectly for the character from the play. After all, he did design the Constitution class. Who's to say he only designed one ship class? And we don't know how long he was working with Miranda Jones or when the Miranda class entered service, at least within canon. We know that an early version was in service at Vanguard.

Interesting idea.

 

[Christopher]

Larry Marvick could have also designed the Miranda class, naming it after the love of his life and only indirectly for the character from the play. After all, he did design the Constitution class.

The actual line is that he was "one of the designers of the Enterprise." That phrasing suggests he wasn't the principal designer.

Besides, who says it's the designers who get to name the ship classes? More likely the names would come from the admirals or bureaucrats who commission new ship classes. Here's what I found out about ship naming in the US Navy:

http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq63-1.htm

[T]he names for new ships are personally decided by the Secretary of the Navy. The Secretary can rely on many sources to help him reach his decisions. Each year, the Naval Historical Center compiles primary and alternate ship name recommendations and forwards these to the Chief of Naval Operations by way of the chain of command. These recommendations are the result of research into the history of the Navy and by suggestions submitted by service members, Navy veterans, and the public. Ship name source records at the Historical Center reflect the wide variety of name sources that have been used in the past, particularly since World War I. Ship name recommendations are conditioned by such factors as the name categories for ship types now being built, as approved by the Secretary of the Navy; the distribution of geographic names of ships of the Fleet; names borne by previous ships which distinguished themselves in service; names recommended by individuals and groups; and names of naval leaders, national figures, and deceased members of the Navy and Marine Corps who have been honored for heroism in war or for extraordinary achievement in peace.

In its final form, after consideration at the various levels of command, the Chief of Naval Operations signs the memorandum recommending names for the current year's building program and sends it to the Secretary of the Navy. The Secretary considers these nominations, along with others he receives as well as his own thoughts in this matter. At appropriate times, he selects names for specific ships and announces them.

So even if Marvick had designed that class and had wanted to name it after his girlfriend, he would've had to submit the name for approval, and then higher-ups would've deliberated on whether to recommend it. They'd probably investigate where the suggestion came from and why it was proposed, to determine whether it was appropriate to use for a ship representing the UFP. Considering that Marvick was obsessed with Miranda and practically stalking her, I doubt such a suggestion would've gone over well.

 

[David35580]

OK.
1. Christopher wrote:
‘Janeway's physical death is indisputable. The atoms of her body were disintegrated. Lady Q preserved her consciousness and prepared her for the transition to something else, something that might not be anything like a human existence’.

Now, I hate to seem like a dog with a bone over this, but as any future (post, ‘Before Dishonour’) Janeway stories depend on nailing it, I will persevere.

I think we have become bogged down in what we each mean by death – and that’s a road not to travel lightly as these exchanges would then become endless, rather than just seeming so.

Let’s just stick to Star Trek death and not move out of that universe.
Janeway’s consciousness was taken off by the female Q to another existence, ‘something that might not be anything like a human existence’, so she clearly isn’t dead.
Jennifer Sysko’s consciousness wasn’t taken off by any form of Q. She’s dead.
The Intendant’s consciousness wasn’t taken off by any form of Q. She’s dead.
Tret Khevet’s consciousness wasn’t taken off by any form of Q. He’s dead.

So Janeway isn’t dead and she will therefore be starting some sort of new life (in some state of existence) and the story of that could be quite interesting. (Was all I was trying to say).

Presumably she won’t be baby-sat by Q for too long and there will then be a whole new world to explore, where presumably other non-corporeal beings (like Kes) could interact with her, perhaps in a training sort of way as she will need to learn how to operate in this new environment (hence my suggestion of the QU earlier).

She may be able to go and see Chakotay for example but may not be skilled enough yet to make herself known – that would be a poignant scene indeed.

The tale of Janeway moving back into the corporeal world (?As a Hologram with her personality installed by force of will, say) would be excellent. Surely she could move into a computer programme – so many other entities seem to be able to.

Hologram Janeway in purpose made body (after she makes herself known to The Doctor and has him & Reg create the holographic body), as captain of the USS Galen. Now that’s an idea, and not even an outlandish one for the ST universe. She was once a Tom Paris impregnated amphibian, so let’s not hear too many ‘it’s not possible’ comments. Even better; first officer of the Galen, not yet trusted to be in command, struggling to deny her new existence, but being inexorably drawn to that other (non-corporeal) existence where so much more is known and ‘knowable’. She could ‘park’ the hologram body somewhere and flit between the two states of existence.

2. JD wrote:
'I thought Kes was back on the Ocampa home world working to move her people back to the surface?’
I’ve mislaid my String Theory #3 copy, but I didn’t think she was a corporeal being then was she? If not (and I may be mistaken) she could easily do other things around her ‘day job’, like helping Janeway.
As I said, Kes deserves her own book in any case. What about the story of her endeavours on Ocampa and her attempts to get her people to accept that their short lives are just a preparation for something greater?
If she is once again, corporeal, then perhaps she can move between the two states of existence – that would make a good story as well.

That is, of course the very richness of ST literature – so many great characters and so much you can do with them. There is so much potential for great stories.

 

[Christopher]

^I'm sorry, your post is filled with "FONT" tags that make it borderline-illegible.

 

[C.E. Evans]

One that's new to my wish list is a book set in the Star Trek: Online universe featuring the new Enterprise-F and her crew. Never played Online--nor have any intention to--but seeing the winning fan-based design that CBS and Cryptic Studios finally settled on really kind of stirred up my post-24th Century imagination again.

Design differences between the Enterprise-E and the Enterprise-F:
(warning: really huge photo)
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/9875/enterprisecompare.jpg

 

[Thrawn]

One that's new to my wish list is a book set in the Star Trek: Online universe featuring the new Enterprise-F and her crew. Never played Online--nor have any intention to--but seeing the winning fan-based design that CBS and Cryptic Studios finally settled on really kind of stirred up my post-24th Century imagination again.

Design differences between the Enterprise-E and the Enterprise-F:
(warning: really huge photo)
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/9875/enterprisecompare.jpg

That thing looks like it could fuck your shit right up.

 

[DrBashir]

Larry Marvick could have also designed the Miranda class, naming it after the love of his life and only indirectly for the character from the play. After all, he did design the Constitution class.

So even if Marvick had designed that class and had wanted to name it after his girlfriend, he would've had to submit the name for approval, and then higher-ups would've deliberated on whether to recommend it. They'd probably investigate where the suggestion came from and why it was proposed, to determine whether it was appropriate to use for a ship representing the UFP. Considering that Marvick was obsessed with Miranda and practically stalking her, I doubt such a suggestion would've gone over well.

How very sexist of you to feel that the only reason Marvick would want the ship named after Miranda Jones is because she's his girlfriend. Couldn't she have done something that would warrent havign a ship named after her that would be more fitting that naming it after a, to them, fictional character? Did she make first contact with the Medusans? Or bring the Federation and the Medusans closer? Why would the only reason be that Marvick was in love with her? It could be seen as acknowledgement of deep admiration for her achievements that, unknown to her, as grown into love.

I'm not saying that it's the most likely explanation, just that I'd prefer that the names refer to real people more that a character from a book. What does that say about the number of people that you could honour with naming a ship after them when a ficitonal character is deemed more deserving.

 

[Christopher]

One that's new to my wish list is a book set in the Star Trek: Online universe featuring the new Enterprise-F and her crew. Never played Online--nor have any intention to--but seeing the winning fan-based design that CBS and Cryptic Studios finally settled on really kind of stirred up my post-24th Century imagination again.

Design differences between the Enterprise-E and the Enterprise-F:
(warning: really huge photo)
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/9875/enterprisecompare.jpg

Odd surface texture on that design. It makes it look like a diecast toy of a starship rather than a huge starship.

How very sexist of you to feel that the only reason Marvick would want the ship named after Miranda Jones is because she's his girlfriend. Couldn't she have done something that would warrent havign a ship named after her that would be more fitting that naming it after a, to them, fictional character? Did she make first contact with the Medusans? Or bring the Federation and the Medusans closer? Why would the only reason be that Marvick was in love with her? It could be seen as acknowledgement of deep admiration for her achievements that, unknown to her, as grown into love.

What the hell?! Before you go around hurling such a hateful accusation at someone you've never even met, you should try WATCHING THE DAMN EPISODE. Or reading the transcript at least. In "Is There In Truth No Beauty?," Marvick is irrationally obsessed with Miranda Jones. She's rejected multiple marriage proposals from him and yet he still pursues her. He doesn't give a damn about her accomplishment with the Medusans; he begs her not to go with Kollos even though it's her life's work, and is so fiercely jealous that he attempts to murder the ambassador. He's so irrational that he doesn't even protect himself with a visor, despite being forewarned of the danger.

So it's right there in the script. Marvick has no respect for Miranda's career or her accomplishments or even her right to say no. He's obsessed with her as an object of romantic desire and is willing to murder the being that he thinks is keeping him from possessing her. And you think the sexism here is coming from me?! What the hell!

I'm not saying that it's the most likely explanation, just that I'd prefer that the names refer to real people more that a character from a book. What does that say about the number of people that you could honour with naming a ship after them when a ficitonal character is deemed more deserving.

First off, as has already been stated, Miranda is also the name of a moon of Uranus. The Luna-class ships such as Titan are also named for moons within the Sol system; is it so implausible that it might not be the only class thus named? And what about the runabouts named after rivers? Or the ships named after cities like the Bozeman and the Melbourne?

Second, if a class of ship were named after a person, it would not be on a first-name basis. Come on, the nuclear-powered aircraft carriers belong to the Nimitz class, not the Chester class. Ships named after people are given their surnames or their full names, not just their first names. So if the Miranda class were named after a person, it would have to be someone whose last name was Miranda.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

So if the Miranda class were named after a person, it would have to be someone whose last name was Miranda.

Which is why, a number of posts ago, I named a number of Spanish painter, all parts of the Baroque movement, as possibilities. Which is an idea you've ignored for some reason. Probably your Anglocentrism there, Christopher. Your bias is showing.

 

[DrBashir]

One that's new to my wish list is a book set in the Star Trek: Online universe featuring the new Enterprise-F and her crew. Never played Online--nor have any intention to--but seeing the winning fan-based design that CBS and Cryptic Studios finally settled on really kind of stirred up my post-24th Century imagination again.

Design differences between the Enterprise-E and the Enterprise-F:
(warning: really huge photo)
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/9875/enterprisecompare.jpg

Odd surface texture on that design. It makes it look like a diecast toy of a starship rather than a huge starship.

How very sexist of you to feel that the only reason Marvick would want the ship named after Miranda Jones is because she's his girlfriend. Couldn't she have done something that would warrent havign a ship named after her that would be more fitting that naming it after a, to them, fictional character? Did she make first contact with the Medusans? Or bring the Federation and the Medusans closer? Why would the only reason be that Marvick was in love with her? It could be seen as acknowledgement of deep admiration for her achievements that, unknown to her, as grown into love.

What the hell?! Before you go around hurling such a hateful accusation at someone you've never even met, you should try WATCHING THE DAMN EPISODE. Or reading the transcript at least. In "Is There In Truth No Beauty?," Marvick is irrationally obsessed with Miranda Jones. She's rejected multiple marriage proposals from him and yet he still pursues her. He doesn't give a damn about her accomplishment with the Medusans; he begs her not to go with Kollos even though it's her life's work, and is so fiercely jealous that he attempts to murder the ambassador. He's so irrational that he doesn't even protect himself with a visor, despite being forewarned of the danger.

So it's right there in the script. Marvick has no respect for Miranda's career or her accomplishments or even her right to say no. He's obsessed with her as an object of romantic desire and is willing to murder the being that he thinks is keeping him from possessing her. And you think the sexism here is coming from me?! What the hell!

I'm not saying that it's the most likely explanation, just that I'd prefer that the names refer to real people more that a character from a book. What does that say about the number of people that you could honour with naming a ship after them when a ficitonal character is deemed more deserving.

First off, as has already been stated, Miranda is also the name of a moon of Uranus. The Luna-class ships such as Titan are also named for moons within the Sol system; is it so implausible that it might not be the only class thus named? And what about the runabouts named after rivers? Or the ships named after cities like the Bozeman and the Melbourne?

Second, if a class of ship were named after a person, it would not be on a first-name basis. Come on, the nuclear-powered aircraft carriers belong to the Nimitz class, not the Chester class. Ships named after people are given their surnames or their full names, not just their first names. So if the Miranda class were named after a person, it would have to be someone whose last name was Miranda.

I'm sorry you took such offence to my remarks Christopher. I was merely pointing out that the only reason you gave for Marvick wanting to name the ship after Miranda was because of her relationship with him. Obviously I came across as stronger than I intended and for that I apologize.

In regards to ship names, may I present the USS T'Pau
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/T'Pau_(starship)

And the Surak
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Surak_(shuttlecraft)

Miranda Jones was human and never visted Earth but did spend much time on Vulcan. Perhaps it was offered to name the ship after her according to Vulcan custom as opposed to human.

Starships named after Earth citizens may use last or first and last names but it's obvious that Vulcans don't follow the same tradition.

 

[Christopher]

Miranda Jones was human and never visted Earth but did spend much time on Vulcan. Perhaps it was offered to name the ship after her according to Vulcan custom as opposed to human.

You don't get it. Ship names aren't "offered" in that way. They're nominated by various people, a committee reviews their suitability and makes recommendations to the cabinet member in charge of the fleet, and that person chooses the names.

And why the hell would it be Miranda Jones of all people? Do you seriously imagine she's the only Miranda in the whole damn 23rd century? It's not like her accomplishment is that huge a deal in the grand scheme of things. If it were named after a person named Miranda, the odds are hugely in favor of it being someone else of that name.

 

[DrBashir]

How do we know how names are offered? Have we ever seen it done? Perhaps Marvick knows sombody on the Federation Council. Just because things are done one way now does not mean that they have to be done that way in the future.

Do you think that the US Navy would offer a new ship to a Captain who stole and aircraft carrier and destroyed the same, even if he did stop a member of Al-Quida in the process? Funny, that's essentially what happened in STIII. You can't draw too many paralells between our world and Trek. They do all sorts of odd things there.

In the novel Final Frontier the first starship is supposed to be named Constitution but George Kirk suggests it be named Enterprise. How could a security officer on a ship on an unofficial mission be the one to change the name of a ship? It's fictional, that's how. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to us but, to the people living in the fictional world, it makes perfect sense. Same with this. The writer comes up with something halfway beliveable and lets the reader accept or reject it. If we were to hold Trek, both live action or prose, to such a high standard most of the episodes would fail. Willing suspension of disbelief and all that.

 

[Sci]

Do you think that the US Navy would offer a new ship to a Captain who stole and aircraft carrier and destroyed the same, even if he did stop a member of Al-Quida in the process?

Depends. In doing so, did he also stop that member of al-Qaeda from acquiring a thermonuclear warhead (as Kirk kept the Klingons from acquiring Genesis), revive a heroic Navy captain thought dead (the resurrection of Spock), prevent the capture of that aircraft carrier by al-Qaeda (as Kirk kept the Klingons from capturing the Enterprise), and then finish it all off by saving all life in Washington, D.C., from imminent death (as Kirk saved Earth from the Probe)?

 

[DrBashir]

Do you think that the US Navy would offer a new ship to a Captain who stole and aircraft carrier and destroyed the same, even if he did stop a member of Al-Quida in the process?

Depends. In doing so, did he also stop that member of al-Qaeda from acquiring a thermonuclear warhead (as Kirk kept the Klingons from acquiring Genesis), revive a heroic Navy captain thought dead (the resurrection of Spock), prevent the capture of that aircraft carrier by al-Qaeda (as Kirk kept the Klingons from capturing the Enterprise), and then finish it all off by saving all life in Washington, D.C., from imminent death (as Kirk saved Earth from the Probe)?

Seeing as the Genesis Device had already detonated it would be more akin to allowing him to explore the crater that said thermonuclear bomb had created. Kruge had the date from Valkris, I've always wonder just what he hoped to gain by visiting the Genesis Planet and then tipping off the Federation to his presence by destroying the Grissom and attacking the Enterprise. Enter the system, take a few scans of the plant and bugger off with your booty. Good thing Kruge was an idiot and couldn't help starting a fight he should have had no chance at all in.

Also, it's interesting how only Kirk ever gets rewarded in these capers. It's like the rest of the crew don't do a thing exxcept make him look good.