Plot hole city: Part II!

[rahullak]

Here's a question (and I hope it hasn't already been asked): Did they really have to drill a hole to Vulcan's center to create the red matter black-hole that would consume the planet? Couldn't they have created the black hole somewhere on or near the surface of Vulcan so that the resulting black hole would still suck the planet in?

 

[Saquist]

Here's a question (and I hope it hasn't already been asked): Did they really have to drill a hole to Vulcan's center to create the red matter black-hole that would consume the planet? Couldn't they have created the black hole somewhere on or near the surface of Vulcan so that the resulting black hole would still suck the planet in?

Absolutely...
It's been covered but yes, it was just a contrivance for the stories action, specifically the orbital sky diving bit. It was also done to give the hero's time to come to the rescue.

But the solution was so simple it's ridiculous why they didn't do it at vulcan to save the planet. Fire on the tether and jump into warp....

...just like the Jellyfish did....

 

[number6]

Why didn't Kirk just blow up the doomsday machine by flying the Constellation inside it instead of waiting for Decker to die first?

You have no idea what a plot hole is.

 

[Broccoli]

^ Trivia: The "doomsday theme" from that episode was created after Shatner and Nimoy came to the set one day after eating Taco Bell made with White Castle sliders and decided to have a fart off. True story. But by true, I mean completely false. But I believe it, so that makes it true.

 

[BillJ]

Why didn't Kirk just blow up the doomsday machine by flying the Constellation inside it instead of waiting for Decker to die first?

You have no idea what a plot hole is.

For someone to say this film has no plot holes, that person is just being obstinate, but I can understand someone enjoying it in spite of them.

In The Doomsday Machine, we have a logical progression of events that both the viewer and the characters are in on. From the battered Constellation, to Spock's assessment that no conventional attack can hurt the planet killer, to Decker's suicide and finding that the shuttle explosion caused a power drop on the internal mechanism to Kirk taking the Constellation on a suicide run. We have an A, B, C, D progression, we don't go from finding the battered Constellation to Kirk ramming it down the planet killer's throat without fleshing out why Kirk is doing what he is doing.

In Star Trek 2009, we have both Starfleet and Kirk connecting the "lightening storm in space" and "seismic events on Vulcan" for no other reason than they need to be linked for the story to move forward.

A plot hole, or plothole, is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot.

I would think that the above would constitute a plot hole.

 

[Gojira]

I think the raging debate earlier has shown that the viewer is filling in more than they think. It's not a complex movie but how do you explain that it's missing so much? To many that enjoyed the movie and see no problem with it they don't see what's wrong with the missing information. That's how you know their imagination is filling in the gaps.

How can my imagination be filling gaps that I never consciously saw?

Strange you should ask that as the visual cortex does the same thing with the gap in your vision.

There is a big difference between my brain functioning normally and filling in gaps without my conscious effort because that is how the mind works and having to take conscious effort to fill in gaps that I do recognize.

 

[beamMe]

In The Doomsday Machine, we have a logical progression of events that both the viewer and the characters are in on. From the battered Constellation, to Spock's assessment that no conventional attack can hurt the planet killer, to Decker's suicide and finding that the shuttle explosion caused a power drop on the internal mechanism to Kirk taking the Constellation on a suicide run. We have an A, B, C, D progression, we don't go from finding the battered Constellation to Kirk ramming it down the planet killer's throat without fleshing out why Kirk is doing what he is doing.

It's also quite a stretch that the machine didn't vaporise the CONSTELLATION.

 

[DrBashir]

Why didn't Kirk just blow up the doomsday machine by flying the Constellation inside it instead of waiting for Decker to die first?

You have no idea what a plot hole is.

For someone to say this film has no plot holes, that person is just being obstinate, but I can understand someone enjoying it in spite of them.

In The Doomsday Machine, we have a logical progression of events that both the viewer and the characters are in on. From the battered Constellation, to Spock's assessment that no conventional attack can hurt the planet killer, to Decker's suicide and finding that the shuttle explosion caused a power drop on the internal mechanism to Kirk taking the Constellation on a suicide run. We have an A, B, C, D progression, we don't go from finding the battered Constellation to Kirk ramming it down the planet killer's throat without fleshing out why Kirk is doing what he is doing.

In Star Trek 2009, we have both Starfleet and Kirk connecting the "lightening storm in space" and "seismic events on Vulcan" for no other reason than they need to be linked for the story to move forward.

A plot hole, or plothole, is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot.

I would think that the above would constitute a plot hole.

The thing that I noticed was Kirk was the one who caught the reference to the lightning storm in space, a phrase that was spoken before he was born. Now, you would make the assumption that he heard about it from reading the logs or reports on the event. However, Pike wrote a paper on the destruction of the Kelvin and the death of George Kirk. He even knew Jim was Georges son. But Pike didn't make the connection at all. It might work better for me if Kirk had been show to have had at least some interest in his father but the closest he got was making a comment about the storm being on the day he was born, not the day his father died. He never even mentioned his father.

As BillJ says, it was to make Kirk out to be the hero. Which is what the story demanded. Could it have been handled in a different way that doesn't requre everyone else to be an idiot? Sure but that takes more work to set up. It's easier to make your character look smart when everyone else is stupid. This wasn't a deep character study after all, it was a summer blockbuster popcorn flick. Exactly what it wanted to be.

 

[beamMe]

The thing that I noticed was Kirk was the one who caught the reference to the lightning storm in space, a phrase that was spoken before he was born. Now, you would make the assumption that he heard about it from reading the logs or reports on the event. However, Pike wrote a paper on the destruction of the Kelvin and the death of George Kirk. He even knew Jim was Georges son. But Pike didn't make the connection at all. It might work better for me if Kirk had been show to have had at least some interest in his father but the closest he got was making a comment about the storm being on the day he was born, not the day his father died. He never even mentioned his father.

Did you see the movie?

Pike didn't know who Jim Kirk was. The barkeep told him.
Pike didn't know about the Romulan attack on the Klingons. Without that knowledge he couldn't make the connection.

 

[BillJ]

Did you see the movie?

Pike didn't know who Jim Kirk was. The barkeep told him.
Pike didn't know about the Romulan attack on the Klingons. Without that knowledge he couldn't make the connection.

But he had to have known about the "lightening storm in space" because it's right there in Chekov's ship wide mission briefing. Yet he never made the connection even though he wrote dissertation on the original encounter.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

OK, so can we get this straight in the form of a question? The question is

Does Pike know enough at least to realize that Enterprise could be warping into a trap?
​

Right?

 

[BillJ]

OK, so can we get this straight in the form of a question? The question is

Does Pike know enough at least to realize that Enterprise could be warping into a trap?
​

Right?

Evidently not.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Sorry, I guess I expressed three questions there. Which one does "Evidently not" answer?

 

[DrBashir]

The thing that I noticed was Kirk was the one who caught the reference to the lightning storm in space, a phrase that was spoken before he was born. Now, you would make the assumption that he heard about it from reading the logs or reports on the event. However, Pike wrote a paper on the destruction of the Kelvin and the death of George Kirk. He even knew Jim was Georges son. But Pike didn't make the connection at all. It might work better for me if Kirk had been show to have had at least some interest in his father but the closest he got was making a comment about the storm being on the day he was born, not the day his father died. He never even mentioned his father.

Did you see the movie?

Pike didn't know who Jim Kirk was. The barkeep told him.
Pike didn't know about the Romulan attack on the Klingons. Without that knowledge he couldn't make the connection.

"For my dissertation I was assigned USS Kelvin.


Something I admired about your dad,
he didn't believe in no-win scenarios."

Sounds like he knew a fair bit about the Kelvin's last mission. And yet he missed out on the whole lightning storm while JTK made the connection while recovering from being sedated. Pike knew enough about JTK to make the connection with him and his father and yet he missed the original reason that the Kelvin diverted in the first place?

 

[Saquist]

How can my imagination be filling gaps that I never consciously saw?

Strange you should ask that as the visual cortex does the same thing with the gap in your vision.

There is a big difference between my brain functioning normally and filling in gaps without my conscious effort because that is how the mind works and having to take conscious effort to fill in gaps that I do recognize.

I never said you were making a...."conscious" effort....

Did you see the movie?

Pike didn't know who Jim Kirk was. The barkeep told him.
Pike didn't know about the Romulan attack on the Klingons. Without that knowledge he couldn't make the connection.

But he had to have known about the "lightening storm in space" because it's right there in Chekov's ship wide mission briefing. Yet he never made the connection even though he wrote dissertation on the original encounter.

That's another good point.
Pike really should have known this before Kirk...

 

[Gojira]

Strange you should ask that as the visual cortex does the same thing with the gap in your vision.

There is a big difference between my brain functioning normally and filling in gaps without my conscious effort because that is how the mind works and having to take conscious effort to fill in gaps that I do recognize.

I never said you were making a...."conscious" effort....

Yes you did.

To many that enjoyed the movie and see no problem with it they don't see what's wrong with the missing information. That's how you know their imagination is filling in the gaps.

Imagination is a conscious process and is not part of the brains automatic cognitive processing systems. To have our imaginations filling in the gaps we would have to recognize gaps (missing information) in the story in the first place and consciously fill them in. Its called cognitive dissonance. If our brains register cognitive dissonance it will try to resolve that dissonance.

If our brains do not perceive that "something is amiss" then our brains have understood the information being processed and no cognitive dissonance occurred.

So for many who did enjoy the movie we do not think that there is missing information to begin with!

For those that did perceive "missing information" they can use their imagination to creatively resolve any gaps they see.

If they cannot creatively resolve any gaps they see I suspect they don't want to.

 

[Saquist]

Strange you should ask that as the visual cortex does the same thing with the gap in your vision.

There is a big difference between my brain functioning normally and filling in gaps without my conscious effort because that is how the mind works and having to take conscious effort to fill in gaps that I do recognize.

I never said you were making a...."conscious" effort....

Yes you did.

To many that enjoyed the movie and see no problem with it they don't see what's wrong with the missing information. That's how you know their imagination is filling in the gaps.

Imagination is a conscious process and is not part of the brains automatic cognitive processing systems. To have our imaginations filling in the gaps we would have to recognize gaps (missing information) in the story in the first place and consciously fill them in.

of course it's a conscious process... but is there is perception and belief involved that assist to evade the conscious mind. So...if you wish...denial...

 

[Gojira]

Strange you should ask that as the visual cortex does the same thing with the gap in your vision.

Yes you did.

To many that enjoyed the movie and see no problem with it they don't see what's wrong with the missing information. That's how you know their imagination is filling in the gaps.

Imagination is a conscious process and is not part of the brains automatic cognitive processing systems. To have our imaginations filling in the gaps we would have to recognize gaps (missing information) in the story in the first place and consciously fill them in.

of course it's a conscious process... but is there is perception and belief involved that assist to evade the conscious mind. So...if you wish...denial...

My problem is you're speaking universally. YOU saw a problem with the movie so if you did then everyone else must have or they are in denial.

 

[Saquist]

Yes you did.



Imagination is a conscious process and is not part of the brains automatic cognitive processing systems. To have our imaginations filling in the gaps we would have to recognize gaps (missing information) in the story in the first place and consciously fill them in.

of course it's a conscious process... but is there is perception and belief involved that assist to evade the conscious mind. So...if you wish...denial...

My problem is you're speaking universally. YOU saw a problem with the movie so if you did then everyone else must have or they are in denial.

Have you been paying attention to "certain" members post?

Even when I'm not talking to them they are compelled to direct time and energy to contest everything I say and are consistently without effective rejoinder falling back on the passive aggressive retorts to skitter by the rules of civility. Trek produces fanatics with a faith as strong as any religious extremist.

eHow sites:

Denial is a defense mechanism that people use when they cannot handle or don't want to deal with reality. Stress is one of the results of denial left untreated. Facts usually do not change, no matter how hard a person wishes that the problem would just go away. Problems tend to mount and build, resulting in even more challenges that demand attention.

Anger
Depression
Immaturity
Hypertension
Addiction

Then there are those that simply don't care, they are nonchalant about the facts and openly relate their apathy and prefer to enjoy the film as it was presented. The difference between them and those in denial is the effort and the emotional divide.

It's the same with all fans, stargate, star wars, Lord of the Rings. Television has become a great creator of the fanatic.

​

 

[beamMe]

Sounds like he knew a fair bit about the Kelvin's last mission. And yet he missed out on the whole lightning storm while JTK made the connection while recovering from being sedated. Pike knew enough about JTK to make the connection with him and his father and yet he missed the original reason that the Kelvin diverted in the first place?

He asked the bartender who that kid was - he didn't have to make any connection whatsoever.