The OFFICIAL STNG-R general discussion thread!

[RAMA]

Re: The OFFICIAL STNG-R discussion thread!

It occurs to me...on second thought I DON'T want a fan vote on the aspect ratio!! SF fans in general and ST fans specifically are not that imaginative and pretty much like things to stay the same ALL the time.

RAMA

Thats terrifyingly offensive. Trek fans are extremely imaginative, in fact I have rarely seen any tv fandom as imaginative as Trek fans.

I mean one of the great, great things about a hit and miss project like the TOS remaster was that, they did create a 4:3 and a 16:9 to suit the audience.

They merchandised home market materials with both respect for people who wanted no real changes (original effects) and those like me that wanted updated and new effects.

I have no problems giving props for success (the rich transfer,the matte paintings, and some effects) and have no problem letting them know where they failed, the large number of under rendered and poorly designed shots.

And since we all thought that both were being done (based on what occurred with TOS), I would have no problem if they released two sets domestically.

I also would love it if they did one of each at least on the sampler, so that we could see how a full episode looks.

After all I have no problem with change if the change is an improvement. But changer can also make something worse.

Again I would much rather have them work without cropping (using the early film that would have the wider aspect ration, but I don't know if that can be used).

And it isn't because I am a purists, but because so far, every show that I have seen that was cropped looked worse.

If all the cropped jobs I had scene were better then I wouldn't have a real problem with it.

I used to think the reverse, but time and again fandom has shown that they prefer to stand pat and think in the box. This has been true since Nimoy got death threats for having the gall to "kill" Spock to people who can't stand the idea of IMPROVING the technical merits of the shows just because it doesn't tally with their personal memories of them. There's more to the show than just nostalgia. It unfortunately demonstrates the fandom's penchant for wanting what's comfortable rather than what breaks new ground.

They didn't fail on the renders at all...they weren't meant to look like state of the art FX, they were meant to be idealized...in STNG-R that should not be an issue. If TOS-R were not idealized, you'd be complaining even MORE that they looked like Enterprise era FX. In other words, they couldn't win no matter what they did.

RAMA

 

[Maxwell Everett]

Re: The OFFICIAL STNG-R discussion thread!

Here's an example I mocked up in Photoshop using a frame from "Encounter at Farpoint":

1.33:1 - Just a straightforward presentation of the intended 4:3 framing.

1.66:1 - Combining the added picture info from the camera negative but maintaining the intended vertical framing.

1.78:1 - Cropping the vertical height to almost the TV Action Safe area to bring the composition to 16:9.

Here are the images I used if you were wondering:
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/s1/1x01/farpoint1_070.jpg
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/s1/1x01/farpoint1_071.jpg

 

[Start Wreck]

Re: The OFFICIAL STNG-R discussion thread!

He didn't say 4:3 was boring, he said STNG was photographed in boring fashion..which is more than just aspect ratio (way to go in twisting his words).

I meant, he argues against TNG being in 4:3 on the basis that it is boring. He may mean it was filmed "boringly" for other reasons (not its aspect ratio) but he argues 16:9 would help it, so I've hardly twisted anything.

By making it larger and wider it gives the impression of being more cinematic...and combined with the new clarity of the picture should give it a new feel.

I'm in favour of adding new things, new ships, new effects, CGI and all that jazz... I'm just not in favour of removing a large part of the picture in order to do it, which is what making it 16:9 would involve.

Also, if you actually wanted it to be "more cinematic", then it could be even wider than 16:9, you know, like movies at the cinema. Of course, you'd lose even more of the picture. Would you be in favour of that? Where would you draw the line?

Making it "larger and wider" is impossible. It's large and narrow, or small and wide. You cannot have both. It's a compromise.

---

Maxwell, that is some epic photoshoppery, so well done.
The problem is using a safe zone is, by definition, not safe. It's also still cropped, however slight. Same as the Enterprise TATV example.

Admittedly, that picture looks fine, as did the TATV footage (for the purposes of a stock shot), but that's a long way from making sure an entire seven-season series works well enough in widescreen.

 

[LitmusDragon]

Re: The OFFICIAL STNG-R discussion thread!

I'm pretty neutral on the 16 x 9 thing. On the one hand I've seen it done before on another show I love (Seinfeld) and it mostly worked very well. On the other hand I wouldn't mind them being purists about it.

If they do make an official announcement on the 28th I hope they include some of this test footage they've been showing people. Or at least a screenshot!

 

[RAMA]

Re: The OFFICIAL STNG-R discussion thread!

Here's an example I mocked up in Photoshop using a frame from "Encounter at Farpoint":

1.33:1 - Just a straightforward presentation of the intended 4:3 framing.

1.66:1 - Combining the added picture info from the camera negative but maintaining the intended vertical framing.

1.78:1 - Cropping the vertical height to almost the TV Action Safe area to bring the composition to 16:9.

Here are the images I used if you were wondering:
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/s1/1x01/farpoint1_070.jpg
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/s1/1x01/farpoint1_071.jpg

Terrific, see it can be done.

I do have a feeling the odds are about 60-40 they will go with 4:3. Simply to be "purist" about it even if 16:9 looks better.

See Star Wreck...lots more interesting stuff on the horizontal..

 

[Squiggy]

Re: The OFFICIAL STNG-R discussion thread!

I don't want the James R. Kirk tombstone changed.

May I ask why? It isn't his name (what "is" and "isn't" being the last established mention of something in the canon). So, are you thinking that during that episode his name actually is James R. Kirk instead of Tiberius?

Say if in Encounter there was a graphic that had Picard born in England instead of France...should that be left in? We all know he wasn't (won't be?). Or the mistake with Data's rank in AGT? He never was a LtJG on the show. Why leave it in?


I'm not a fan of Lucasifying the series (I'll make an exception for BoBW or some of the "evasive maneuvers" where the ship remains motionless). I don't want the powers that be to stick in an Arex in the background like Lucas did on Tatooine. But I am in favor for correcting continuity mistakes early on in a series run. I think most people are for updating some of the sfx to including something more than the same 6 or 7 shots of Enterprise warping by or entering orbit or doing the same entering orbit move just without a planet there.

The show can and did get stuff wrong in the show. They should correct it. Maybe it'll silence some of the more nerdy Trekkie questions like "In episode S2xE14 you said that Riker did_____but in episode S1xE6 we clearly see him _____". Maybe cut that stuff or correct it.

The series can defiantly improved upon without being negatively altered.

 

[Tomalak]

Re: The OFFICIAL STNG-R discussion thread!

For what it's worth, I'd be in favour of a 16x9, CGI-laden TNG-HD.

TNG was inherently a series intended for small, 1980s, 4x3 CRT screens. It looked fine there for it's time, and is preserved in glorious DVD for future generations. Even on my rather large HD LCD television, the upscaled DVDs are still very watchable.

But to make a Blu-ray release value for money, and actually just of a worthy standard for the High Definition format, I would see this as a new edition of the same series. The stories will be the same, the characters, the dialogue, but the visuals will be enhanced to match up.

If it really bothers me, I can still grab the DVDs and watch BoBW how it's always been, but I'd also love to see a more cinematic, rebuilt version for the 21st century.

*Actually I will add that it does rather depend on how much material there is in the original negs. I hate it when a film series (such as TOS or The World At War) is overzealously chopped up, because the original framing is totally lost. If it turns out there's not enough to do it sensitively, and you'd end up with a horrible looking product, then it's a no-brainer to leave it in the original 4x3.

 

[Squiggy]

Re: The OFFICIAL STNG-R discussion thread!

Agreed. The purists who don't want to see any sort of changes...what's the point of doing it at all? If all you're having is the identical 4:3 shots for 178 hours, then why even do the project? To have a better contrast ratio?

The point of this is to make TNG watchable to a generation of viewers who's standard is HD. It might suck for you but the "kids these days" weren't even alive when the show aired. It seems like ancient history. It would look like ancient history if it wasn't tweaked and there would be almost zero chance of having it connect again.

But if you beleive what I beleive and that the best part of Trek is the story and not the visuals, then the best part of Trek and the reason we all fell in love with it will remain. TOS-R didn't cease being Star Trek because of a couple of shoddy effects shots. The stories and the characters and the messages were all there, but now it's not painful to watch on a 70 inch plasma. The same holds true to TNG.

If you don't like change then you can keep your current unaltered TNG DVDs. No one will take those away. That's their original intent and how they originally aired.

 

[JarodRussell]

Re: The OFFICIAL STNG-R discussion thread!

Agreed. The purists who don't want to see any sort of changes...what's the point of doing it at all? If all you're having is the identical 4:3 shots for 178 hours, then why even do the project? To have a better contrast ratio?

The point of this is to make TNG watchable to a generation of viewers who's standard is HD. It might suck for you but the "kids these days" weren't even alive when the show aired. It seems like ancient history. It would look like ancient history if it wasn't tweaked and there would be almost zero chance of having it connect again.

But if you beleive what I beleive and that the best part of Trek is the story and not the visuals, then the best part of Trek and the reason we all fell in love with it will remain. TOS-R didn't cease being Star Trek because of a couple of shoddy effects shots. The stories and the characters and the messages were all there, but now it's not painful to watch on a 70 inch plasma. The same holds true to TNG.

If you don't like change then you can keep your current unaltered TNG DVDs. No one will take those away. That's their original intent and how they originally aired.

Hm... shall we also recut the episodes for faster pace and add lens flares and shaky cam because that's the current style of this generation?

Why can't I just have the original, but only in High Def? We also got the unaltered TOS on blu ray, far beyond the original intention, didn't we?

 

[RAMA]

Re: The OFFICIAL STNG-R discussion thread!

Agreed. The purists who don't want to see any sort of changes...what's the point of doing it at all? If all you're having is the identical 4:3 shots for 178 hours, then why even do the project? To have a better contrast ratio?

The point of this is to make TNG watchable to a generation of viewers who's standard is HD. It might suck for you but the "kids these days" weren't even alive when the show aired. It seems like ancient history. It would look like ancient history if it wasn't tweaked and there would be almost zero chance of having it connect again.

But if you beleive what I beleive and that the best part of Trek is the story and not the visuals, then the best part of Trek and the reason we all fell in love with it will remain. TOS-R didn't cease being Star Trek because of a couple of shoddy effects shots. The stories and the characters and the messages were all there, but now it's not painful to watch on a 70 inch plasma. The same holds true to TNG.

If you don't like change then you can keep your current unaltered TNG DVDs. No one will take those away. That's their original intent and how they originally aired.

Hm... shall we also recut the episodes for faster pace and add lens flares and shaky cam because that's the current style of this generation?

Why can't I just have the original, but only in High Def? We also got the unaltered TOS on blu ray, far beyond the original intention, didn't we?

It's not just aesthetics if it fits the the current format (not style) better with minimal alteration.

I'm not a fan of Lucasifying the series (I'll make an exception for BoBW or some of the "evasive maneuvers" where the ship remains motionless). I don't want the powers that be to stick in an Arex in the background like Lucas did on Tatooine. But I am in favor for correcting continuity mistakes early on in a series run. I think most people are for updating some of the sfx to including something more than the same 6 or 7 shots of Enterprise warping by or entering orbit or doing the same entering orbit move just without a planet there.

There is also concept art for shots and FX that could not be produced at the time on budget or at the pace the shows were shot at. Much of that work exists...Like Armus and the Jarada examples I gave on the last thread...there is even a spot for alien Jarada to be inserted where a planet was used instead. I'm in favor of adding these in also.

 

[Squiggy]

Re: The OFFICIAL STNG-R discussion thread!

Hm... shall we also recut the episodes for faster pace and add lens flares and shaky cam because that's the current style of this generation?

That is a style...not a standard, of a minority of directors...JJ being one of them.

HD is the standard. A few years from now there won't be any SD available on TV in the United States. HD set market penetration (giggity) was 65% 16 months ago. I wouldn't be shocked if it was over 70 now. You can't buy SD sets now. Network shows aren't offered in SD. When HD penetration (giggity) reaches 80-85%, I'm sure that shows and on screen graphics will switch to being primarily 16:9 rather than the current 16:9 with a 4:3 title safe.

In a couple of years the teenagers (the ones who determine what is and what isn't "hip" or "with it") will no of nothing BUT high definition. SD programming will seem as archaic as black and white is to Generation Xers.

Why can't I just have the original, but only in High Def? We also got the unaltered TOS on blu ray, far beyond the original intention, didn't we?

You might have both. Hell if I know. Speilberg said that next time he releases E.T he'll put in both the original theatrical release and his familyfied update from a couple of years ago on the same disc.

As for what the original intent was, I'm sure it was to get as many eyeballs as possible on the show, in whatever format was popular at the time. If that was VHS, DVD, Bluray or whatever's next...I'm sure that's what the writers, producers, directors, actors, and most importantly the suits at Paramount/CBS want.

 

[Start Wreck]

Re: The OFFICIAL STNG-R discussion thread!

See Star Wreck...lots more interesting stuff on the horizontal..

I'm sure you're aware that this example is a photoshopped picture, not a capture of the original negative. For all we know, the original negative of this frame has a boom mic next to Tasha's head, or a member of the film crew standing by the turbolift, making it unusable.

I'm not saying every shot does have that, but the point of the safe zone is that it isn't intended to be used because it might do. And if you can't guarantee that every shot is safe to extend horizontally, then it means spending time (and money) looking for the mistakes and trying to correct them on a case-by-case basis.

And, I will just add, that even if the area outside of the safe zones is usable for every single shot in every single episode, that the above example still has cropping that diminishes the framing of the shot. There is an unpleasant lack of headroom above Yar, which is not as aesthetically pleasing as the original composition.

You may not mind it. You may think it looks "good enough". In my view, it just isn't worth it.

Agreed. The purists who don't want to see any sort of changes...what's the point of doing it at all? If all you're having is the identical 4:3 shots for 178 hours, then why even do the project? To have a better contrast ratio?

Umm... to have them in HD.

I'm not a purist by any stretch! I love the new effects in TOS-R, and I'm eager to see more in TNG-R. But I don't want to lose a load of the picture and ruin the framing of the shots just for the sake of it.

That's not an improvement, that's making it worse.

 

[Squiggy]

Re: The OFFICIAL STNG-R discussion thread!

I'm not a purist by any stretch! I love the new effects in TOS-R, and I'm eager to see more in TNG-R. But I don't want to lose a load of the picture and ruin the framing of the shots just for the sake of it.

So you'd rather have this:

for sake of losing this?

 

[Start Wreck]

Re: The OFFICIAL STNG-R discussion thread!

So you'd rather have this:

for sake of losing this?

Yes, most definitely.

 

[Squiggy]

Re: The OFFICIAL STNG-R discussion thread!

So you'd rather have this:

for sake of losing this?

Yes, most definitely.

It's a matter of personal taste, but since you'd be losing nothing to the story I just don't see it and disagree.

 

[Start Wreck]

Re: The OFFICIAL STNG-R discussion thread!

So you'd rather have this:

for sake of losing this?

Yes, most definitely.

It's a matter of personal taste, but since you'd be losing nothing to the story I just don't see it and disagree.

It's not just about the "story" though, is it? By that logic, you could remove the picture entirely and turn it into a radio drama.

The point of this project should be to take the existing elements and make a better version of the show. Increasing the resolution is better. Increasing the quality, detail and variety of special effects shots is better. Removing the top and bottom of every shot isn't better, it's vandalism.

They did it right with TOS; I hope they don't mess this one up.

 

[Squiggy]

Re: The OFFICIAL STNG-R discussion thread!

Yes, most definitely.

It's a matter of personal taste, but since you'd be losing nothing to the story I just don't see it and disagree.

It's not just about the "story" though, is it? By that logic, you could remove the picture entirely and turn it into a radio drama.

No. You'd have to add a hell-of-a lot of dialogue to describe what it is they're looking at.

The point of this project should be to take the existing elements and make a better version of the show. Increasing the resolution is better. Increasing the quality, detail and variety of special effects shots is better. Removing the top and bottom of every shot isn't better, it's vandalism.

I disagree. If done well you wouldn't even notice.

They did it right with TOS; I hope they don't mess this one up.

Some people think they messed up TOS by changing it to the level that they did. Again, it's a matter of personal preference. Some people think they Trek died in 1979, Others in 1987. Others in 2005. Some people think it shouldn't be touched at all. If it is touched or modified, it isn't vandalized...it's changed.

Times change.

If you want TNG to get any sort of airplay past it's current run on BBC and open it up to a new audience then you shouldn't restrict yourself to an outdated visual standard. Color television didn't vandalize television anymore than sound vandalized the motion picture.

 

[AviTrek]

Re: The OFFICIAL STNG-R discussion thread!

Does it have to all or nothing? I mean must it only either be 4x3 or 16x9? Surely there is some exposed area of the film that wasn't used for the original 4x3 transfer to tape.

Couldn't they open it up a little, so there are some black bars on each side, just not a thick as they'd be with a straight 4x3 version?

If memory serves, Hogan's Heroes in HD looked like that. Not quite full 16x9, but more than 4x3.

I've never heard of that. The only two ratios are 4:3 and 16:9.

He prob means the formatting the bluray player or tv allows...mine allows 16:9, 16:10 for example. I thought he also meant that extra picture allowed (and seen in TATV) with a 1:37 aspect ratio as opposed to 1:33 as it was originally shot with.

RAMA

I think what he means is 16:9 with smaller black bars. If you watch TNG on BBCA you can get a vague sense of this. They stretch the image slightly. It doesn't fill the entire 16:9 frame, but it does reduce the size of the black bars on the top/bottom. So in this case, he's suggesting expanding the frame a little if possible, and doing a smaller crop of the top/bottom if necessary. You lose less material and get closer to a full 16:9 image.

 

[Scotty]

Re: The OFFICIAL STNG-R discussion thread!

Agreed. The purists who don't want to see any sort of changes...what's the point of doing it at all? If all you're having is the identical 4:3 shots for 178 hours, then why even do the project? To have a better contrast ratio?

The point? I want to see TNG in HD for the added clarity, level of detail and definition but in the aspect ratio as it was originally intended. I'm even abivalent about the CGI. I would much rather have them use the original filmed elements of the models and incorporate them anew, instead of all out CGI.

As for all the great photoshopping that has been done, I'm not convinced. People have been mostly using wide shots. Cropping the image during action scenes and close ups is a lot harder and it will affect the composition.

I may be a purist, but I hope that the point of the remastering process is preserving the show, not revamping it to make it cooler for new viewers. In the case of TOS, CBS got it right. I hope they will (and really expect them to) take the same approach for TNG.

 

[RAMA]

Re: The OFFICIAL STNG-R discussion thread!

See Star Wreck...lots more interesting stuff on the horizontal..

I'm sure you're aware that this example is a photoshopped picture, not a capture of the original negative. For all we know, the original negative of this frame has a boom mic next to Tasha's head, or a member of the film crew standing by the turbolift, making it unusable.

I'm not saying every shot does have that, but the point of the safe zone is that it isn't intended to be used because it might do. And if you can't guarantee that every shot is safe to extend horizontally, then it means spending time (and money) looking for the mistakes and trying to correct them on a case-by-case basis.

And, I will just add, that even if the area outside of the safe zones is usable for every single shot in every single episode, that the above example still has cropping that diminishes the framing of the shot. There is an unpleasant lack of headroom above Yar, which is not as aesthetically pleasing as the original composition.

You may not mind it. You may think it looks "good enough". In my view, it just isn't worth it.

Agreed. The purists who don't want to see any sort of changes...what's the point of doing it at all? If all you're having is the identical 4:3 shots for 178 hours, then why even do the project? To have a better contrast ratio?

Umm... to have them in HD.

I'm not a purist by any stretch! I love the new effects in TOS-R, and I'm eager to see more in TNG-R. But I don't want to lose a load of the picture and ruin the framing of the shots just for the sake of it.

That's not an improvement, that's making it worse.

Of course...but it simulates the same effect seen in the TATV footage. I doubt one person complained about the STNG stuff used in TATV. 98% of fans probably won't notice a change in the 16:9 HD if used either.

So you don't want to change the format cause there MAY be a boom mike in .05% of the shots on the negatives?? They can easily photoshop that small percentage away.

It's not "good enough", it looks better to me.

RAMA