Starfleet vs. Klingons (who wins)

[antiquityscion]

Personally, the Federation Klingon War during the DS9 era would more closely resemble the Star Trek Online war, than YE war: both sides pretty evenly matched. But the idea of speculating seems fun. Plus, I think DS9's Federation\Klingon war was inconclusive as it was, but had it continued:

1. Gowron was shown to be incompetent as a general later on in the Dominion War, so those traits would surface.

2. The Federation had the "benefit" of facing the Borg invasion in the Prime universe, and developing the Sovereign, Intrepid, Defiant, and Prometheus classes. While inconclusive, I don't see the Prime universe Klingons having made equivalent advances because as far as on screen, the Borg hadn't tried to invade the klingon empire.

3. The Klingon Empire had experienced a civil war just several years before. That had to have weaken their forces.

4. You had a Changeling masquerading as Martok. General Martok was shown to be an effective general during the Dominion war, so without Martok, could the Klingons have been less successful? Very Likely.

5. While the Cardassians were definitely weakened and lost territory, they would have entered on the side of the Federation, if for no other reason to get their territory back. That would have tipped the scales in the Feds favor, even if it were a little.

6. Even though the endeavor failed, the Cardassians and Romulans had worked together in a failed attempt to take out the Dominion. That infers there is some relations between those two powers. If the Cardassians did enter the war, there would be at least some chance the Romulans, seeing a chance to defeat their long standing Blood enemies, the Klingons, might have made an alliance of convenience with the Federation and Cardassians. Conversely, if the Klingons defeated the Federation, that would not sit well with the Romulans: they hated the Klingons more than the Federation. So, they may have entered in on the side covertly or overtly, of the Federation and Cardassians. Sort of a lesser of 2 evils: ensuring the Feds win would be slightly better than if the Klingons won to the Romulans. Then again, maybe they would do nothing, until Sisko FRAMED the Klingons for killing a Romulan Senator .

7.Well, the thing about YE is we don't know what technology was developed (or not developed) in that universe on either side, that did or didn't exist in the Prime universe. Maybe the federation failed to develop technologies the Prime Universe had, due to lack of resources. Or maybe the Klingons developed technology or formed alliances they otherwise wouldn't have in the Prime universe. I mean Klingon BOPs were traditionally outgunned 10 to 1 compared to a Galaxy class (IE Matter of Honor, Generations), yet it only took 2 of them to take out the Enterprise D. The alternate universe BOPs seem significantly more powerful than their Prime universe counterparts

8. The klingons were good at warfare, sure, but they always struck me as Vikings in space, ruling by terror and suppressing diversity. Plus they didn't value other castes, including doctors and scientists. The Federation struck me as more organized and embraced the diverse cultures within, and while the federation weren't warriors like the klingons, being that they hads more cultures do draw upon (IE humans, Vulcans, Andorians, Tererites, Beta Zeds, Bajorans, and beyond) and being organized, the Federation had far more points of view draw upon to out think the Klingons, the ability to value science and innovation, and the organization to retool very quickly for wartime thinking and strategy.


Edit:

Now, I wonder what a Terran Empire VS the Klingon Empire in the 24 century would look like, had Spock NOT toppled the Terran empire with his reforms! That would have been a bloody, knock-down, drag out fight, where the only way it would end, is if one side totally annihilated the other!
(IE think what the Terran Empire would do if they had Genesis?!)

 

[Paradon]

The Klingons have advantages over the Fed...the Fed are run by creeps. Why do you think Hilary Clinton is so screwed up? [chuckle] Because she is married to one! And how about John Edward? [laugh]

 

[antiquityscion]

oh you

 

[Rojixus]

As I have said before, the only thing different about Yesterday's Enterprise is that the ships are more militarized. Technologically, everything appeared to be the same.

3. The Klingon Empire had experienced a civil war just several years before. That had to have weaken their forces.

The Klingon Civil War barely lasted a year and appeared to be a fairly low-intensity conflict at that. After two or three years, the Klingons would be back in shape.

1. Gowron was shown to be incompetent as a general later on in the Dominion War, so those traits would surface.

Keep in mind Gowron was killed after only two years of full-scale war.

Furthermore, just as diversity can be an asset, it can also be a liability; to many cooks spoiling the broth and all that. If the Federation were to fight a protracted conflict for more than a few years, you'd have multiple factions in the Federation wanting to fight on, another faction wanting to sue for peace, yet another faction wanting to secede from the Federation, another faction wanting to keep the previous faction in the Federation, and so forth. Before long, the Federation would not only be fighting the Klingons but itself as well.

 

[doylem1]

What i don't understand is why people have the idea the the KDF is larger than Starfleet. The Federation borders several other Empires, Romulans, Cardassians, Breen, Tholians ect so must have a deterring fleet defending each border as each one of these Empires are expansionist by military force and any sign of weakness shown would be exploited. If the KDF is larger than Starfleet than war would have started long ago as the Klingons would feel they had the numbers to beat the Feds. I'd have to speculate Starfleets standing fleet would have to be large enough to deter both the Romulans and Klingons declaring open warfare and large enough to put up a presence on each of the other borders.

 

[antiquityscion]

As I have said before, the only thing different about Yesterday's Enterprise is that the ships are more militarized. Technologically, everything appeared to be the same.

Not necessarily, for the reasons I stated in points 2,5, 7 in particular.

The Klingon Civil War barely lasted a year and appeared to be a fairly low-intensity conflict at that. After two or three years, the Klingons would be back in shape.

Possibly. We don't know exactly. But I'll concede that.

Furthermore, just as diversity can be an asset, it can also be a liability; to many cooks spoiling the broth and all that. If the Federation were to fight a protracted conflict for more than a few years, you'd have multiple factions in the Federation wanting to fight on, another faction wanting to sue for peace, yet another faction wanting to secede from the Federation, another faction wanting to keep the previous faction in the Federation, and so forth. Before long, the Federation would not only be fighting the Klingons but itself as well.

Doubtful it would be a liability. If the Klingons were the aggressors, invaded Federation Territory, and held Federation planets, the federation would not fracture. Like if someone tried to invade a NATO country, an attack on one NATO nation is an attack on ALL NATO nations. If the Federation was willing to allow the Klingon-Federation alliance to dissolve over the Klingons invading their cold war enemy, the Cardassians, they would surely stand together against them then their own territory was attacked and occupied.

Keep in mind Gowron was killed after only two years of full-scale war.

Two years is enough to win a war...or lose it! Remind me: how long was the Dominion War again?

 

[Paradon]

oh you

Or...maybe you!

 

[antiquityscion]

What i don't understand is why people have the idea the the KDF is larger than Starfleet. .

Indeed! Federation has twice the territory, so likely twice the planets, materials, etc. And, The Klingons look surrounded to me!

http://www.sttff.net/AST_MAP.html

 

[antiquityscion]

oh you

Or...maybe you!

 

[Rojixus]

I wouldn't rely on ST: Star Charts for information, it is non-canon after all.

Doubtful it would be a liability. If the Klingons were the aggressors, invaded Federation Territory, and held Federation planets, the federation would not fracture. Like if someone tried to invade a NATO country, an attack on one NATO nation is an attack on ALL NATO nations. If the Federation was willing to allow the Klingon-Federation alliance to dissolve over the Klingons invading their cold war enemy, the Cardassians, they would surely stand together against them then their own territory was attacked and occupied.

Actually, the Federation didn't dissolve the Klingon-Federation Alliance, Gowron did. Also, NATO isn't as unified as you'd think. If a NATO country was invaded today, you'd see some members debating whether they should send troops or not and if they do, how much to send. Then you'd have some members refusing to send any troops whatsoever. Lastly, ST:SC is non-canon, it doesn't figure into this debate.

What i don't understand is why people have the idea the the KDF is larger than Starfleet. The Federation borders several other Empires, Romulans, Cardassians, Breen, Tholians ect so must have a deterring fleet defending each border as each one of these Empires are expansionist by military force and any sign of weakness shown would be exploited. If the KDF is larger than Starfleet than war would have started long ago as the Klingons would feel they had the numbers to beat the Feds. I'd have to speculate Starfleets standing fleet would have to be large enough to deter both the Romulans and Klingons declaring open warfare and large enough to put up a presence on each of the other borders.

The Federation doesn't have to have the largest fleet in the quadrant to protect itself from invasion. It only has to have a fleet large enough to make the prospect of invading the Federation an unappealing one. I'd hate to beat a dead horse, but in Yesterday's Enterprise, the Federation had lost over half its fleet. We don't know how many ships the Klingons lost, but then again, they were winning.

 

[Nightdiamond]

I have no proof, but I think the Klingons most likely stockpiled a huge amount of warships.

They went to war with Cardassia. And then with the Federation.
Later, their fleet was attacked by the Jem Hadar and pushed back into Klingon Space.

Then the war happened-more ships lost. Later the Klingons were the only ones holding the line against the Dominion.

They had to have had a pretty large, concentrated fleet to withstand so many battles, wars and losses.

Of course if they went to war with the Federation now, it would be a different story, because their fleet is pretty much spent.

 

[Rojixus]

I have no proof, but I think the Klingons most likely stockpiled a huge amount of warships.

They went to war with Cardassia. And then with the Federation.
Later, their fleet was attacked by the Jem Hadar and pushed back into Klingon Space.

Then the war happened-more ships lost. Later the Klingons were the only ones holding the line against the Dominion.

They had to have had a pretty large, concentrated fleet to withstand so many battles, wars and losses.

Of course if they went to war with the Federation now, it would be a different story, because their fleet is pretty much spent.

Who says their fleet is spent? For all we know, the Empire could have a large amount of surplus ships they keep stored up until they're needed. It's also possible the Klingons mass-produced ships around the clock.

 

[antiquityscion]

Rojixus, I am not going to say anyone is right or wrong here, because it is all opinion and speculation, but here's why I don't agree with your opinion....

I wouldn't rely on ST: Star Charts for information, it is non-canon after all.

No less valid than making assumptions about an alternate universe with very little data, that ceased to exist after that universes' timeline ended when the Enterprise C went back through the rift.

NATO isn't as unified as you'd think. If a NATO country was invaded today, you'd see some members debating whether they should send troops or not and if they do, how much to send.

False. You might have a point if you are talking about taking military action external to Europe (IE Libya), but if Russia decided to invade Lithuania, ALL of NATO would respond with contributions to the effort to drive the Russians out. Naturally, nations with large military forces would likely shoulder the brunt of military action, but ALL nations would contribute in some way (IE humanitarian aid). It is completely reasonable to assume the Federation would work the same way.
From http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_17120.htm

"Article 5

The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.
"

The Federation doesn't have to have the largest fleet in the quadrant to protect itself from invasion. It only has to have a fleet large enough to make the prospect of invading the Federation an unappealing one.

Where are you getting this information, aside from Yesterday's Enterprise, an alternate timeline that ceased to exist?

I'd hate to beat a dead horse, but in Yesterday's Enterprise, the Federation had lost over half its fleet. We don't know how many ships the Klingons lost, but then again, they were winning.

But that was that universe. Similarities, yes. But in Parallels there were universes where the Borg defeated the Federation, too. I hate to beat a dead horse, as this is all conjecture and really a matter of opinion (IE to me, your opinion is no more\less valid than mine and the true victor really depends on who is writing the story), but I think the Federation has more going for it than the Klingons.

Actually, the Federation didn't dissolve the Klingon-Federation Alliance, Gowron did.

True enough, but it was because the Federation was condemning the invasion. Had the Federation stood silent, the Klingons would still have been mad, but probably wouldn't have gone as far as to dissolve the alliance.

 

[Rojixus]

Where are you getting this information, aside from Yesterday's Enterprise, an alternate timeline that ceased to exist?

That was pure speculation on my end, it wasn't in Yesterday's Enterprise.

We're talking about a hypothetical war between the Federation and Klingon Empire. Yesterday's Enterprise goes one step further to show us what an actual Klingon-Federation War would be like, apparently the Federation would loose such a war. Honestly, I'm a little surprised by that myself, but it's there and can't be denied. Also, Yesterday's Enterprise timeline might still exist, going by ST09 and its version of time travel. One thing that YE has over ST:SC is that unlike that book, the episode Yesterday's Enterprise IS canon. The episode showed us that after a twenty year war with the Klingons, the Federation lost.

As for the timeline itself, there is no indication of any extraordinary divergences from the main timeline. In addition to YE, consider the episode All Good Things where the Klingons managed to conquer the Romulans if you can believe it. All the Federation managed to do with the Romulans is fight them to a standstill. Furthermore, the Klingons were just about to conquer the Cardassians before the Dominion intervened. Again, all the Federation managed to do was establish some sketchy "peace" that the Cardies continually try to subvert, this goes for the Romulans as well.

As I said before, diversity can be a liability as well as an asset. Too many cooks more often than not spoil the broth. In a protracted war with the Klingons, the member-states of the Federation would probably be too busy fighting among themselves to fight the Klingons.

 

[doylem1]

The biggest problem the Federation has in a war is they don't seem to try and win the war by expanding into the enemies territory. Without some cannon info regarding the Cardassian wars often referred to as the Cardassian border wars we don't know how much effort Starfleet was putting into winning or simply defending their borders in that conflict.
Also although the Dominion was pushing the Federation and Klingons back before the Romulans joined you had the feeling that until the top brass realised the Dominion couldn't be beat by defending your own territory the Federation was happy to fight a defensive war and hope the Dominion would call a ceasefire or peace could be made.
In Y.E this may also be the reason why the Federation was losing other than raids behind the lines maybe the Federation never pushed into Klingon space and pushed them back denying much needed resources and territory which the Klingons would do and thus why the Federation was on the edge of defeat.

 

[antiquityscion]

n on my end, it wasn't in Yesterday's Enterprise.

If that is just your speculation and not based on a specific source, then fair enough. But you are inferring that from YE as a source, that the Klingons would win, which is what I meant. I was asking if you had any other source other than YE, that stated the edge would be to the Klingons in such a hypothetical war, because I thought maybe you had a source I was not aware of, and could possible even change my mind.

As for the timeline itself, there is no indication of any extraordinary divergences from the main timeline

Nor do we have any indication that precludes it, either. We don't even know how the war started. With the Federation engaged in a 20 year war, their exploration was likely not be as extensive. Picard would not have met Q, or the Borg, or the federation meeting the Dominion for that matter. As a consequence of that, the Federation would have failed to develop key ships that were designed to combat the Borg and Dominion, like the Defiant, Sovereign, Intreped, and Prometheus classes, which would be very useful in fighting Klingons.

As I said before, diversity can be a liability as well as an asset. Too many cooks more often than not spoil the broth. In a protracted war with the Klingons, the member-states of the Federation would probably be too busy fighting among themselves to fight the Klingons.

Now there is an age old question. Which is better: tyrannical, oppressive empires or Democratic Republics. The Klingon empire is a suppressive, tyrannical regime. Such governments tend to stifle free thought and rights. Its soldiers are either conscripts (conquered planets), or forces its citizens to become warriors (Klingons), even when they are not suited to be warriors. Also, Klingons have always struck me as space barbarians, and are forced into a "one-way fits all" type of thinking. The standard issue Klingon Warrior is not really a deep thinker, and are so dogmatic, they will follow orders without question, or will be killed. Maybe in hand to hand combat, they have an edge over humans in fighting skills and strength\endurance, but in space chips, not so much, and that is where the war will be fought mostly. Not to mention, its not just humans, but Vulcans, Andorians, and other races, that could stand toe to toe with Klingons in personal combat.

The Federation is a Democratic Republic. While it is true that Democratic Governments can be disorganized and less homogenous, the flip side is that people are free to be what they want to be. The federation embraces the diversity, and that diverity allows them to have different points of view, that allows them to see more angles than "one way" thinking of the Klingons. Also, in a democratic Society, people are free to be who they are, and live to their fullest potential. They are free to innovate and think on the fly, and question orders, when one is given in error. Finally, people with freedom faced with an outside tyrannical power aiming to take that freedom away, will tend to unite and fight for that freedom, too. That is a cause that rallies people more than just taking another group of people over, because to them, the stakes are much higher.

Even if the Klingons were able to capture Federation territory, they wouldn't be able to hold it. THey would face guerrilla warfare from the Federation citizens. I would point to the in-universe example of Cardassia and Bajor. Bajor is analogous to the Federation, while the Cardassians are a suppressive regime, like the Klingons. Took generations, but the Bajorans drove the Cardassians away eventually. The large reason why is because the Bajorans were a free people, and had their freedom taken away. Because they were a free people, and able to innovate and devise innovative tactics, they eventually overcame the Cardassians. This would be repeated on a larger scale, if the Klingons took Federation land. Not to mention, the regular Federation forces would continue to fight on the front, as well.

So in that light, I think the edge goes to the Federation.

BTW, I am not saying the Klingons would go down easily when I say the Federation would win. Who knows, may be a Pyrrhic victory, with both sides devastated.

 

[Rojixus]

As a consequence of that, the Federation would have failed to develop key ships that were designed to combat the Borg and Dominion, like the Defiant, Sovereign, Intreped, and Prometheus classes, which would be very useful in fighting Klingons.

Would they really be that useful? In the Dominion War, how many Sovereign classes did we see? Intrepid classes? Prometheus classes? We've only seen up to 3 Defiant classes throughout the whole conflict. What makes these classes so special? Was it the fact that they were military oriented ships? If so, the Galaxy-class in YE was apparently combat oriented from the ground up and it still didn't help the Federation.

and are forced into a "one-way fits all" type of thinking

Despite what the Klingons themselves would have you believe, Klingons certainly do not practice a "one-way fits all" type of thinking. Most Klingons try to live up to the stereotype of being loud, bombastic space-viking/samurai/mongols, but in practice, the Klingons can be as crafty and devious as any Romulan. The Klingons have SERIOUS problems practicing what they preach. They're as likely to obey the teachings of Kahless as they are to completely disregard them.

Took generations, but the Bajorans drove the Cardassians away eventually.

The Cardassians only left because of political pressure back on Cardassia, hardly because of anything the Bajorans did. The Cardassian Union is nowhere near in the same league as the Klingon Empire. The Klingons won't face political pressure on the home-front to withdraw like the Cardassians. The Klingons are willing to take losses and supposedly don't take prisoners (maybe, I can't remember whether I heard that from an episode or a novel).

In due time, you might see some member-states seeking to establish a separate peace with the Klingons. Since the Klingons seem to consider the Federation some kind of Human Empire, they might be willing to accept surrenders from these members. If this is the case, that could completely shatter the Federation as we know it. With the Federation hemorrhaging member-states like that, the Federation would have no choice but to surrender.

As for a Federation-wide insurgency, maybe they would drive off the Klingons, maybe not. If we look at All Good Things, where the Klingons conquered the Romulans, there was no mention of the Klingons having problems with a Romulan insurgency. Don't forget, the Romulans absolutely HATE the Klingons so they would absolutely try to throw off their Klingon masters. In any event, that is another war for another debate.

Regardless of the who wins, such a victory would be Pyrrhic at best. With the Romulans waiting at the wings, and more ominously, the Dominion, things would be very bleak for the Alpha Quadrant in the ensuing years if a Federation-Klingon War were to break out.

 

[antiquityscion]

Would they really be that useful?

I think it would.

The Cardassians only left because of political pressure back on Cardassia, hardly because of anything the Bajorans did.

Basically the same reason the US lost the Viet Nam war, but by resisting, and making it not worth the Cardassians' time and effort, Bajor won by default

Been good discussing this with you Rojixus, but I think we are at a point where we have to agree to disagree.

Regardless of the who wins, such a victory would be Pyrrhic at best. With the Romulans waiting at the wings, and more ominously, the Dominion, things would be very bleak for the Alpha Quadrant in the ensuing years if a Federation-Klingon War were to break out.

On that we do agree! The real winner is whomever is left to fill the power vacuum!

 

[Rojixus]

but I think we are at a point where we have to agree to disagree.

It's rapidly looking that way. When it comes to hypotheticals, anything could happen and nothing is set in stone. This is especially true if we take the parallel worlds theory into account. In just as many realities where the Klingons triumph over the Federation, there is an equal number of realities where the Federation is the winner. That's the way the multiverse...multiplies I guess.

 

[antiquityscion]

It's rapidly looking that way. When it comes to hypotheticals, anything could happen and nothing is set in stone. This is especially true if we take the parallel worlds theory into account. In just as many realities where the Klingons triumph over the Federation, there is an equal number of realities where the Federation is the winner. That's the way the multiverse...multiplies I guess.

Agreed on that, as well. In the Mirror universe, it seems the Klingons conquered the Terran Empire on DS9, in alliance with the Cardassians and bajorans, so that is at least one example of the Klingons defeating the Federation, in addition to the eminent defeat of the Federation in Yesterday's Enterprise.