6.5X010 The Girl Who Waited (Grading/Discussion) (SPOILERS!)

[Takeru]

Why? Why should the Doctor have simply accepted it at that point? He's the experienced time traveler, and he knew that wasn't the way it was supposed to be.

It wasn't the way it was supposed to be, but it was the way it was. I can't point to lots of specific episodes, but I'm sure the Doctor told his companions several times that they couldn't change things because they had already happened, not just fixed points, but pretty much everything they had experienced.
He could have spared Jackie a year of worrying about her daughter and thinking she was dead and he could have prevented Mickey from being a murder suspect, but he didn't say "Whoops, back into a TARDIS Rose, next stop last year", the characters had to deal with it, because that's what it was now.

Of course that was before the whole "Time can be rewritten" stuff started, which I really don't like that much.

 

[Starkers]

Is it? My impression is that they don't give a shit.

You're right, they seem to have forgotten her and I don't buy the "We grew up with her, so technically everything's fine" explanation. Knowing a friend doesn't compare to raising your own child and it ignores that she still spend the first years of her live being brainwashed to assassinate the Doctor. They should realize that they can't get baby Melody back, but it should be an issue.

I guess I shouldn't expect this episode to affect Amy and Rory's relationship with the Doctor either.

Yeah even as a fan of this series overall this bugs me. I think Moffat wrote himself into a corner and now seems to hope we'll just forget!

Sarah Jane, Leela, Tegan...and that's just off the top of my head!

I like sassy just fine. But the mark of a good heroic companion is someone who'll put themselves in harms way to help other people. Off the top of my head I can't think of any time when Amy risked herself for anyone but herself, Rory, or the Doctor. That was my original point, that she seemed just a bit too self-centered.

Yes I get your point, but people are self-centred sometimes and there have been plenty of companions over the years who haven't been that much different.

It seems somehow odd to complain about a fictional character not being heroic simply because she hasn't been written to throw herself in front of a bullet for some nobody in 1812...

Thinking about it, this episode gives us a lot of possible outs for the Doctor's death back in episode one of this season - In that episode, the Doctor who dies has no TARDIS... What if the Doc nips back, with River - to the Two Streams facility from Saturday, pops into the waterfall room, dodges the Handbots for a day... atthe end of the day there's a 200 years older version, *but*...

He knows how to bring his one-day older version and 200 year-older version together, leave the facility, River gives 200 year-older version her TVM (or takes him, thus "killing him" herself and getting over the compulsion) to travel back to Lake Silencio and pick up a hire car, while one-day older (i.e. regular) Doc tor takes the TARDIS to under the lake, and changes into a space-suit, to kill the 200-years older alt-stream version of himself...

I dunno, whilst the notion that the Doctor who dies is simply the ganger Doctor seems too easy, this seems overly complicated!

 

[Starkers]

Why? Why should the Doctor have simply accepted it at that point? He's the experienced time traveler, and he knew that wasn't the way it was supposed to be.

It wasn't the way it was supposed to be, but it was the way it was. I can't point to lots of specific episodes, but I'm sure the Doctor told his companions several times that they couldn't change things because they had already happened, not just fixed points, but pretty much everything they had experienced.
He could have spared Jackie a year of worrying about her daughter and thinking she was dead and he could have prevented Mickey from being a murder suspect, but he didn't say "Whoops, back into a TARDIS Rose, next stop last year", the characters had to deal with it, because that's what it was now.

Of course that was before the whole "Time can be rewritten" stuff started, which I really don't like that much.

But the show's rewritten time as far back as Father's Day and nobody batted an eyelid back then?

 

[Takeru]

But the show's rewritten time as far back as Father's Day and nobody batted an eyelid back then?

Except that the Doctor was furious Rose had interfered with her own history instead of just observing and they were almost eaten by monsters because of it, now the Doctor just screws with time like it's nothing.

I'm just not a fan of changing things like that. If you can simply rewrite history, any sense of danger flies out of the window. Amy's old? Change it! Amy's dead? Change it! Rory slipped on a banana peel and broke his ankle? Change it!

 

[Starkers]

Yeah I know what you mean. Frankly I was more annoyed with this in A Christmas Carol.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

I'm just not a fan of changing things like that. If you can simply rewrite history, any sense of danger flies out of the window. Amy's old? Change it! Amy's dead? Change it! Rory slipped on a banana peel and broke his ankle? Change it!

I see what you mean, but on the other hand, the show is about change.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Is it? My impression is that they don't give a shit.

You're right, they seem to have forgotten her and I don't buy the "We grew up with her, so technically everything's fine" explanation. Knowing a friend doesn't compare to raising your own child and it ignores that she still spend the first years of her live being brainwashed to assassinate the Doctor. They should realize that they can't get baby Melody back, but it should be an issue.

Well, it's also not like they had nine months expecting a child. Amy had about a week tops to get comfortable with the fact that she had a daughter. That's got to affect how she views this thing.

 

[Takeru]

I see what you mean, but on the other hand, the show is about change.

Sure, but I think in a show about time travel we need at least a few rules and I think "If the characters experienced it, it can't be changed" is a good one. It stops them from changing everything they don't like and still leaves enough loopholes, like the possible ganger explanation of the Doctor's death.

Well, it's also not like they had nine months expecting a child. Amy had about a week tops to get comfortable with the fact that she had a daughter. That's got to affect how she views this thing.

Yeah, I didn't think of that, but I still think her existence should be addressed in some way, hopefully before River shows up the next time, I don't want them to only remember they have a daughter if she appears in the same episode.
It doesn't have to be a big emotional scene, I'd be happy with a throwaway line or maybe an annoyed glance at the Doctor, when he starts babbling about how nice it is to have children while watching some random extras.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Thinking about it, this episode gives us a lot of possible outs for the Doctor's death back in episode one of this season - In that episode, the Doctor who dies has no TARDIS... What if the Doc nips back, with River - to the Two Streams facility from Saturday, pops into the waterfall room, dodges the Handbots for a day... atthe end of the day there's a 200 years older version, *but*...

This makes perfect sense from a production standpoint. In this narrative scenario, the scenes with the Doctor in the facility in this episode would probably have been filmed at the same time as the Doctor's scenes in the facility in the finale, which would have put less pressure on Smith since he was filming "Closing Time" at the same time as this episode.

And it's consistent with previous production filming. In season five, finale filming went on throughout the production blocks. This year, finale filming was done during the Utah shoot. (You can see some of it in BBC America's special Doctor Who in America, which also gives away who is in the spacesuit.)

 

[marillion]

Tip top episode.. One of the best stand alones in a long time!

 

[Lonemagpie]

This makes perfect sense from a production standpoint. In this narrative scenario, the scenes with the Doctor in the facility in this episode would probably have been filmed at the same time as the Doctor's scenes in the facility in the finale, which would have put less pressure on Smith since he was filming "Closing Time" at the same time as this episode.

And it's consistent with previous production filming. In season five, finale filming went on throughout the production blocks. This year, finale filming was done during the Utah shoot. (You can see some of it in BBC America's special Doctor Who in America, which also gives away who is in the spacesuit.)

Spoiler: the spacesuit

The Doctor, I presume

Which makes it baffling that people are still arguing across the net over who they expect to see in there.

 

[Starkers]

^The only thing that bugs me is that the Doctor says "It's ok, I know who you are." to the astronaut, and if it was him you'd think he'd know!

 

[Lonemagpie]

^The only thing that bugs me is that the Doctor says "It's ok, I know who you are." to the astronaut, and if it was him you'd think he'd know!

Not if it's a him who hadn't done this in his own past...

 

[Allyn Gibson]

And it's consistent with previous production filming. In season five, finale filming went on throughout the production blocks. This year, finale filming was done during the Utah shoot. (You can see some of it in BBC America's special Doctor Who in America, which also gives away who is in the spacesuit.)

Spoiler: the spacesuit

The Doctor, I presume

Which makes it baffling that people are still arguing across the net over who they expect to see in there.

Spoiler: Yadda yadda yadda

You presume incorrectly.

Well, technically, it's a stuntman inside the spacesuit, but Doctor Who in America shows Alex Kingston feeding Matt Smith lines -- and getting positively weepy -- on the shoreline. Knowing the stuntman is inside, and Kingston's feeding lines for Smith to react to, it's clear that it's River inside the suit.

I don't think BBC America quite realized what they were showing there. They probably assumed it was filming from "The Impossible Astronaut" and not the finale.

I'm hoping they put the documentary on the DVD set. More interesting -- and more focused -- than most any episode of Confidential. The "Best of" documentaries from the past couple of weeks are useless, though.

 

[Sindatur]

Ummmmm....you guys are making it obvious what's hidden in the Spoiler Code. I for one, have no idea what you are pointing to that gave this away, so I am being spoiled by you guys discussing what's in the Spoiler Code, without even clicking on the Spoiler Code (At least I assume, since I haven't clicked into the Spoiler), rather than the spoiler that was supposedly aired in a Documentary

I humbly request you guys edit your posts, so no one else is spoiled.

 

[Starkers]

I don't think you've been spoiled as myself and Lonemagpie were really just hypothisising

Frankly if I were Moffat I'd have had everyone in that suit at some point!

 

[Bob The Skutter]

I don't think you've been spoiled as myself and Lonemagpie were really just hypothisising

Frankly if I were Moffat I'd have had everyone in that suit at some point!

All of this is assuming it will make sense. I lost faith that it will, if I'm honest.

 

[Sindatur]

I don't think you've been spoiled as myself and Lonemagpie were really just hypothisising

Frankly if I were Moffat I'd have had everyone in that suit at some point!

Oh, OK.

It sounded like you guys were saying a Documentary (I hadn't seen) specifically told us who was in the Suit.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

It sounded like you guys were saying a Documentary (I hadn't seen) specifically told us who was in the Suit.

I won't say that BBC America's Doctor Who In America documentary definitively states who's in the suit, other than a stuntman, but it does suggest very strongly who is in the suit thanks to showing the filming of a scene that was not in "The Impossible Astronaut."

 

[Lonemagpie]

I also, TBH, wonder if - depending on how much of the season had been written before TIA was filmed - they shot more than one version... Or indeed, if the "out" involves changing who's in it as part of the story!