The simplest explanation for why Dukat didn't remember Kira is that Dukat is rascist and all Bajorans look the same to him.
Wrongs Darker than Death or Night: Paradoxery ahoy
- Thread starter Deimos Anomaly
- Start date
She would argue -- and I agree -- that using a science fiction allegory to explore real social phenomena such as mass rape by occupying armies via the role of "comfort women," only to back away and say, "Well, they didn't do the rape thing, 'cos they're aliens," is a cowardly retreat from depicting the reality of those situations, and is, further, a dishonest portrayal of the idea of "comfort women" that serves only to perpetuate the myth that sexual violence isn't really violence and that the victim actually did consent.
To me, at least, the comforts made it bad in their own way. The psychological manipulation, and the Stockholm syndrome it leads to are also forms of abuse--how horrible, to make someone believe they want it, to break down their will in that manner.
The phrase "gilded cage" comes to mind.
I don't see dishonesty--but a different kind of horror, just as bad in its own right. Because it is not real consent and we all know it.
We also really see only one comfort woman's fate: Meru's. While the others also received pretty dresses and tables full of food, it wasn't for their benefit and I never had any doubt that their abuse wasn't as "neat and tidy" as Meru's. Dukat manipulated her to think she adored him, but I'm sure other officers didn't bother. We just never got to see that brutality. The officer who was rough with Meru was more of the standard than Dukat "rescuing" her from that Cardassian.
Besides, I can't see Dukat raping a woman. His twisted little mind would find it far more exciting to try to convince the woman that the Cardassians were actually nice guys and that she should love him. For Dukat, the idea of getting a Bajoran woman to fall in love with him while he's overseeing the rape of their world would be much more exciting then imposing himself physically.
We know that Gul Dukat did rape a woman the "traditional" way in "Covenant."
However, I think that in any case where consent has been tainted, be it by drugs or psychological manipulation, it is still rape regardless of whether it involves beating someone to make them comply. So it's still rape.
I see what you mean, but I think that's a grey area.
Honestly, it doesn't seem grey to me. If "consent" is manipulated, it isn't consent, however gilded the cage might be.
...what?!
Yeah, if you kidnap a woman, cut her off from her family, but are super duper nice to her right before you tell her to strip and get into bed, you're still a rapist. There is nothing even vaguely resembling grey area there.
Good to see that you and I can agree on the truly important stuff.
I wasn't saying it was a nice thing to do! I meant that it's a grey area because he wasn't threatening her: "Have sex with me or I'll kill you."
Kidnapping a woman is not rape. Cutting her off from her family is not rape. If she voluntarily gets into bed with you it isn't rape unless you are threatening to kill her or her family.
If Dukat said, "Have sex with me or I'll order your family killed," then it is rape.
But unless the woman feels that she has no choice but to have sex with him, I don't see how it can be considered clear cut rape. it's a grey area because while she may not 100% want to do it, she may still feel pressured into it. But if she has the choice to say no, then it's a grey area.
It's still a horrible thing to do though!
I am talking about rape as "forcing a person to have sex with you regardless of whether they want to or not." I feel you are viewing it as "pressuring someone to have sex with you even if they don't really want to." The difference is that in the second case, the person can say no.
I can't see Dukat as forcing her to have sex with him if she said no. It would be more important to him to maintain the appearance of a caring and loving person. If she said "Please no, I can't," then I think it's far more likely that he'd accept it.
If there is ANY coercion, any fear whatsoever--whether explicit OR implicit--then sorry...it is rape. It does not have to be stated as bluntly as "I will kill your family" to be rape.
I don't even have words for how sick your train of thought makes me.
I don't even have words for how sick your train of thought makes me.
You folks are forgetting that episode with Akoram Lan (?) -- the Bajoran poet who comes out the wormhole in DS9-time from Bajor-past and they briefly think he's the Emissary and such. At the end of the episode, after he goes back, suddenly the unfinished poem is finished and yet Kira and everyone else remember that it used to be unfinished and that time has been changed.
IE: the prophets exist outside of time and can fuck with whatever they want cause they're the prophets.
lol
IE: the prophets exist outside of time and can fuck with whatever they want cause they're the prophets.
lol
Well, I like to think I can be reasonable about some things.
If you had to kidnap her to get her into bed with you, it's not 'voluntary'.
But if Dukat kidnaps you, takes you into space, and cuts you off from every alternative option you might have had previously so that he forces you to feel like you have no choice, it isn't?
No.
No.
No no no no no.
This is why this makes zero sense:
Dukat: Have sex with me or I will straight up murder you.
Hypothetical Comfort Woman: No.
Even if there's a threat of death, she still has the choice to refuse!
Now, the logical response I'm pretty sure you'd make to me here is that she'd feel like she had no other choice. But when you're all alone, among people that are destroying your planet and who you have a very real fear might kill you if you cross them, you're not gonna feel like you have much of a choice either.
And even if you did? Stockholm syndrome.
And even if none of that applied? Kira Meru was 'willingly' with Dukat in exchange for better treatment for her family. The threat of death wasn't toward her (overtly). She was doing it to give her children a better life during a time when the Cardassians would have killed them without a second thought.
"Have sex with me or I'll destroy your family" is arguably worse than "Have sex with me or I'll kill you".
Then you're not talking about rape and this is all pointless.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape#Consent
Imagine that, instead of Kira Meru, it was your mother in that situation, and then tell me you wouldn't consider Dukat a rapist.
You folks are forgetting that episode with Akoram Lan (?) -- the Bajoran poet who comes out the wormhole in DS9-time from Bajor-past and they briefly think he's the Emissary and such. At the end of the episode, after he goes back, suddenly the unfinished poem is finished and yet Kira and everyone else remember that it used to be unfinished and that time has been changed.
IE: the prophets exist outside of time and can fuck with whatever they want cause they're the prophets.
lol
I totally remembered that!
Okay, let me make this clear...
I see a big difference between holding a gun to someone's head and forcing them to have sex with you and what Dukat did.
If Kira Meru had said no to Dukat, do you think he would have killed her? Beaten her? I don't think so.
We never saw Dukat threaten Meru in any way.
Now, I frely admit that it's a creepy and horrible thing that happened to those women, so stop making me out to be some person who thinks that rape is fine and dandy, because I'm not. Someone close to me was raped, so don't make me out to be like that.
And yes, Meru was doing it to help give her family a better life, but there is a difference between sex with someone to avoid something bad and having sex with someone to gain something good.
In the first, if you refuse, things get worse if you refuse and there's no way it can get better if you accept.
In the second, things don't get worse if you refuse.
This is the situation that Meru was in with Dukat. I freely admit that some other cardassians would have raped the Bajorans, and I agree that that is terrible.
But my point is that we NEVER saw dukat threaten to harm Meru if she refused, and we have NO reason to think that Dukat would have harmed her.
And on a side topic, how long do you think that Meru was with Dukat before Kira tried to kill him? How long does it take for a rape victim (if we play by your rules and calim that Meru was a rape victim) to fall in love with their rapist? Because from what I remember of it, it was only a few days.
Was Meru a victim? Yes. She wouldn't have chosen that life for herself. But that doesn't make her a rape victim.
I see a big difference between holding a gun to someone's head and forcing them to have sex with you and what Dukat did.
If Kira Meru had said no to Dukat, do you think he would have killed her? Beaten her? I don't think so.
We never saw Dukat threaten Meru in any way.
Now, I frely admit that it's a creepy and horrible thing that happened to those women, so stop making me out to be some person who thinks that rape is fine and dandy, because I'm not. Someone close to me was raped, so don't make me out to be like that.
And yes, Meru was doing it to help give her family a better life, but there is a difference between sex with someone to avoid something bad and having sex with someone to gain something good.
In the first, if you refuse, things get worse if you refuse and there's no way it can get better if you accept.
In the second, things don't get worse if you refuse.
This is the situation that Meru was in with Dukat. I freely admit that some other cardassians would have raped the Bajorans, and I agree that that is terrible.
But my point is that we NEVER saw dukat threaten to harm Meru if she refused, and we have NO reason to think that Dukat would have harmed her.
And on a side topic, how long do you think that Meru was with Dukat before Kira tried to kill him? How long does it take for a rape victim (if we play by your rules and calim that Meru was a rape victim) to fall in love with their rapist? Because from what I remember of it, it was only a few days.
Was Meru a victim? Yes. She wouldn't have chosen that life for herself. But that doesn't make her a rape victim.
It's like what the Romans and Burmese used against their conquered enemies... You pressure them just enough and then you offer a better alternative, that actually sounds good... It feels like Dukat really is sympathizing with her, can feel her pain...that's what he was trying to make her see. When worse comes to worst, most people wished their would be someone who could help them...maybe God? In this case Dukat understand this and exploit the situation for his personal gain... You'd be surprised how many people would jump at the opportunity. The Romans had great success with this kind of psychological manipulation.
If there is ANY coercion, any fear whatsoever--whether explicit OR implicit--then sorry...it is rape. It does not have to be stated as bluntly as "I will kill your family" to be rape.
I don't even have words for how sick your train of thought makes me.
You've pretty much hit the nail on the head there. Also, we know perfectly well Dukat is a rapist otherwise he would not have had that half-Bajoran child in Covenant (I think that was the name of the episode).
I see no difference. Being forced in any way to have sex with someone is rape. It doesn't have to be brutal, it doesn't have to end up with bruises, or a gun in one's face and it doesn't matter if you don't remember anything. As long as you don't want to do it--it's rape.
Either both parties want it, or one is forced to it. There is no "half-rape," just like there is no "being half-pregnant."
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