Wrongs Darker than Death or Night: Paradoxery ahoy

[Elias Vaughn]

I notice you completely ignored the evidence I pulled from the script proving you wrong. Shall I take that as a concession?

Or did you completely ignore it in favor of assuming your one quote was more solid than my three?

Oh wait. Yeah you did.

If you don't get my position now, you never will.

The issue has never been not understanding your position. I understand your position very well. The issue is that your position is wrong.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

"Oh, the Bajorans don't UNDERSTAND me! They don't understand my greatness and all the WONDERFUL things I did for them--my children!"

Might help, Tiberius, not to have a tone so similar to that sort of thing.

 

[Elias Vaughn]

Yeah, in context. The context of a single person that Dukat is having a relationship with is different from the context of of an entire population.

She was a Bajoran.

The population were Bajorans.

So not quite as different as you think.

Kira realised it, and Meru didn't deny it because she couldn't deny it.

Now go look at the three other quotes I pulled that show your interpretation to be faulty.

And look at the way Meru was acting around Dukat.

You mean trying to keep a potentially murderous asshole from murdering her and everyone she loved? I'd be nice to him too.

So you admit that the whole thing wasn't Dukat's idea. He was ordered to do it by someone higher up and Dukat found he really liked it.

So Dukat wasn't the mastermind.

He was in charge of the Occupation. Not of the Cardassian military as a whole.

But that's irrelevant.

Only because it proves you wrong.

In fact, there's only one relevant issue here.

Was Kira Meru comfortable with the fact that she was sleeping with Gul Dukat?

Oh.

No.

Because she said as much, if you'd bothered to read the quote from the episode I posted.

If you can show me anything in the episode that shows she was in the slighest uncomfortable, then I will agree that Dukat was forcing himself on her and I will call it rape.

You want me to quote the same bit I did in my last post again?

Fine.

MERU
I haven't forgotten him. What do
you expect me to do -- kick and
bite every time Dukat comes near
me? How would that help Taban or
the children?

See how she's admitting that she only lets him near her to help her husband and children?

Why do you keep ignoring this? I'd like to see you actually address it this time.

But if Meru WANTED to have sex with Dukat - for whatever reason - then she went to bed willingly (in the sense that she wanted to for its own sake, not to produce some other outcome). And if she went to bed because she wanted to, then it wasn't rape.

Durr.

But you've been proven wrong on this multiple times because you can't conceive of the idea that rape doesn't require immediate, physical violence. It can be, oh I don't know, the threat of not having her family taken care of during a time when Bajorans were routinely sent to die in mines.

Now, please bear in mind that I define rape to be having sex with a person who is actively trying to resist that sex and requires some threat against them in order to gain that sex.

Oh. Then your definition itself is wrong.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rape

And just because I know you won't bother clicking it:

rape

1. the unlawful compelling of a person through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse.

2. any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person.

3. statutory rape.

4. an act of plunder, violent seizure, or abuse; despoliation; violation: the rape of the countryside.

5. Archaic . the act of seizing and carrying off by force.

Now, I know what you're gonna say. "But Elias, Meru wasn't under duress because Dukat wasn't forcing her!

Well then. Let's look at the meaning of 'duress' a little more closely:

du·ress

   [doo-res, dyoo-, doo

r-is, dyoo

r-] Show IPA
noun 1. compulsion by threat or force; coercion; constraint.

2. Law . such constraint or coercion as will render void a contract or other legal act entered or performed under its influence.

3. forcible restraint, especially imprisonment.

Well look at that. Forcible restraint or imprisonment. I don't recall, did you admit she'd been kidnapped and imprisoned on Terok Nor?

Like I have said, a million times in this thread, what Dukat did to her is disgusting, terrible, horrible, unforgivable and despicable. He manipulated her just for the sake of manipulating her and exercising power over her. Why don't you people fucking realise that I am on your side here? DUKAT IS A MONSTERT AND WHAT HE DID TO MERU IS JUST FURTHER EVIDENCE OF THAT!!! Read it! For fuck's sake, READ IT!!!

That's not what we're debating. No one's saying Dukat's not a monster.

We're debating whether or not he's guilty of rape. Why do you have such a problem with the idea that Dukat is the scum of the universe, but he totes isn't a rapist you guys!!!

All I am saying is that if Meru got into bed and had sex with Dukat because she wanted to have sex with him, then it is not the same as forcing someone to have sex with you if they are crying, screaming, struggling to get away while you rip their clothes off them and threaten them with violence or death.

That's not what rape is.

I mean, it *is* rape, but it's not the only possible way to force someone into sex. This is what you seem to have issues with.

You guys ever watch Buffy? Remember when Spike tried to rape Buffy in the bathroom? That's the kind of rape I am talking about. Buffy was screaming, struggling begging him to stop. Kira Meru was never forced to have sex with Dukat like that.

And that's not the kind of rape ('kind of rape'; I kind of hate that I can't say that in a better way) that we're talking about.

You don't think rape can be anything but incredibly, immediately violent, and you bitch and moan when people very reasonably point out that your POV is incorrect there.

You can rape someone without first attacking them and then physically forcing their clothes off. You have one vision in your head of this concept, and despite multiple people calmly explaining why it's wrong, you blow off the handle.

So for fuck's sake, when will you guys realise that all I am saying is that THIS:

is different to this!

That's all I am saying!

They are different. They are both rape.

I'm borderline offended by the second picture, though. I guess that's one of the differences?

They are not very different. Very very similar, in just about all respects. But there are differences. That is all I am saying, that is all I have ever said. When will you guys fucking realise that?

We get that.

If however you can see that the two situations (while still both being terrible as I've said countless times before) are even the slightest bit different, then you'll see what I meant when I said it was a grey area. I've freely said that Dukat certainly manipulated Meru, and Meru slept with him as a result of that manipulation. I've never denied it.

Here's an honest question.

how can you both claim that Meru honestly loved Dukat, but then say she was manipulated into it?

And with that can we PLEASE leave it the fuck alone? If you don't get my position now, you never will.

The issue has never been getting your position. The issue is your position is outright wrong.

 

[Sci]

Now, please bear in mind that I define rape to be having sex with a person who is actively trying to resist that sex and requires some threat against them in order to gain that sex.

Your definition of rape is wrong, and is indeed vaguely misogynistic.

Let's take, for instance, the example of a man who has sex with a woman who is unconscious because she has been slipped a ruthie.

She is not actively trying to resist (because she is unconscious). No threats have been made. But it is still rape.

Rape is sex without consent. That doesn't require active resistance, and it doesn't require an immediate physical threat. It only requires that sex happen without consent.

Like I have said, a million times in this thread, what Dukat did to her is disgusting, terrible, horrible, unforgivable and despicable. He manipulated her just for the sake of manipulating her and exercising power over her. Why don't you people fucking realise that I am on your side here?

Because if you were on our side, you would understand that sexually propositioning someone who is aware that you have the power to kill or torture her and/or everyone she loves is inherently an act of sexual violence, and that having sex with such a person is inherently an act of rape.

It's like Chris Rock said about the Thomas Jefferson/Sally Hemmings thing:

"People calling it an 'affair.' It wasn't no 'affair.' That was rape. It's not an affair if you can't say no."

All I am saying is that if Meru got into bed and had sex with Dukat because she wanted to have sex with him, then it is not the same as forcing someone to have sex with you if they are crying, screaming, struggling to get away while you rip their clothes off them and threaten them with violence or death.

Yes, it is, because she's clearly not in her right mind.

So for fuck's sake, when will you guys realise that all I am saying is that THIS:

is different to this!

That's all I am saying!

You're right, there is a difference.

Spike reformed. Dukat didn't.

And with that can we PLEASE leave it the fuck alone? If you don't get my position now, you never will.

It's not that we don't get your position. We do. It's that your position is wrong.

 

[Elias Vaughn]

Oh shoot, that's a picture from Buffy. I have no idea how I didn't realize that, what with it being mentioned at all.

Never mind. It doesn't offend me anymore.

 

[Tiberius]

I notice you completely ignored the evidence I pulled from the script proving you wrong. Shall I take that as a concession?

Or did you completely ignore it in favor of assuming your one quote was more solid than my three?

Oh wait. Yeah you did.

You can take it as me interpreting an hour of dramatic television differently to you.

And you can lose the rudeness.

The issue has never been not understanding your position. I understand your position very well. The issue is that your position is wrong.

So you are claiming that Meru never wanted to sleep with Meru, she was struggling to escape his grasping hands each time he violated her and she never felt any affection at all for him?

Because she said as much, if you'd bothered to read the quote from the episode I posted.

You want me to quote the same bit I did in my last post again?

Fine.

MERU
I haven't forgotten him. What do
you expect me to do -- kick and
bite every time Dukat comes near
me? How would that help Taban or
the children?

See how she's admitting that she only lets him near her to help her husband and children?

Why do you keep ignoring this? I'd like to see you actually address it this time.

It doesn't say that this is the ONLY reason she is doing it. It's poerfectly plausible that she does have feelings for Dukat.

But you've been proven wrong on this multiple times because you can't conceive of the idea that rape doesn't require immediate, physical violence. It can be, oh I don't know, the threat of not having her family taken care of during a time when Bajorans were routinely sent to die in mines.

I never said that.

I am simply saying that manipulalting someone into having sex with you through an immediate threat of violence is not the same as manipulating someone's emotions so that they want to have sex with you.

Because of the lack of immediate violence.

You want to call them both rape? Fine. But you do see that one of them LACKS immediate physical violence, yes?

Now, I know what you're gonna say. "But Elias, Meru wasn't under duress because Dukat wasn't forcing her!

Well then. Let's look at the meaning of 'duress' a little more closely:

Well look at that. Forcible restraint or imprisonment. I don't recall, did you admit she'd been kidnapped and imprisoned on Terok Nor?

Yes, I admit that she was kidnapped and imprisoned. And I do see what you are saying.

But I still think that Dukat, as part of his manipulations of her mind, would have not pressed her to have sex if she said no. I think he wanted to manipulate her mind more than he wanted to have sex with her.

We're debating whether or not he's guilty of rape. Why do you have such a problem with the idea that Dukat is the scum of the universe, but he totes isn't a rapist you guys!!!

I'm not saying that he isn't a rapist. He certainly did violently rape people during his time. I'd be shocked if he hadn't.

All I;ve ever been saying is that what Dukat did with Meru is not a violent rape of the sort Spike tried to do with Buffy.

That's not what rape is.

I mean, it *is* rape, but it's not the only possible way to force someone into sex. This is what you seem to have issues with.

I'm sorry, perhaps I should have said violent rape. If you define it like that, then Dukat did rape her. But if you actually go back and read my post that started all this, I am drawing a disctinction between the two. One uses immediate threats of violence and leaves emotional and probably physical scars. What Dukat did to Meru is different. Perhaps it also leaves physical scars, but you cannot deny that we saw Meru quite comfortable with her relationship with Dukat. That is something that most victims of violent rape cannot say.

You don't think rape can be anything but incredibly, immediately violent, and you bitch and moan when people very reasonably point out that your POV is incorrect there.

I am simply saying that they are different. In just the same way a Porsche and a Ferarri are both sports cars, but still different.

They are different. They are both rape.

Then at least we agree on that. All I;ve been saying is that they are different, and you;ve just agreed with me, so let's drop it, okay?

I'm borderline offended by the second picture, though. I guess that's one of the differences?

It's a screencap of an episode of Buffy. I'm just using it to illustrate a point. if it offends you I'm sorry.

We get that.

The once again, we agree.

Here's an honest question.

how can you both claim that Meru honestly loved Dukat, but then say she was manipulated into it?

Because even though she was manipulated into it does not mean she was aware of that manipulation. I'm sad to say that this sort of manipulation happens in real life, and if it was so easily drtected, it wouldn't happen.

So Meru was being manipulated, yes, but she was most certainly unaware of that manipulation,. Dukat wasn't going to let her know what he was doing. it would defeat the purpose of what he was trying to do.

And Meru's feelings were genuine, I believe, even if Dukat had manipulated her into having them.

The issue has never been getting your position. The issue is your position is outright wrong.

And yet the main point I was trying to make is one that you;ve aagreed with.

I think it's a case of both of us misinterpretting what the other was trying to say. Perhaps if I explained that I was using rape to mean a violent rape a la Spike and Buffy, then this wouldn't have happened. But as far as I'm concerned, I've explained my position, and I feel that you;ve agreed with my point that the two are different types of rape, so I'm perfectly happy to leave this here.

 

[Tiberius]

Your definition of rape is wrong, and is indeed vaguely misogynistic.

Let's take, for instance, the example of a man who has sex with a woman who is unconscious because she has been slipped a ruthie.

She is not actively trying to resist (because she is unconscious). No threats have been made. But it is still rape.

Rape is sex without consent. That doesn't require active resistance, and it doesn't require an immediate physical threat. It only requires that sex happen without consent.

I would say that in the case of a woman who has been drugged, it is rape because the rapist took an action against her that directly resulted in her having sex without her consent.

And interestingly, given that you say that rape is any sex where consent is not given, I must point out that Meru did give consent. (Of course, Meru was still manipulated.)

Because if you were on our side, you would understand that sexually propositioning someone who is aware that you have the power to kill or torture her and/or everyone she loves is inherently an act of sexual violence, and that having sex with such a person is inherently an act of rape.

As Elias has pointed out, a woman with a gun to her head can still say no.

It's like Chris Rock said about the Thomas Jefferson/Sally Hemmings thing:

"People calling it an 'affair.' It wasn't no 'affair.' That was rape. It's not an affair if you can't say no."

I have no idea what that is.

Yes, it is, because she's clearly not in her right mind.

So if a woman volunteers to have sex with someone (even if he has manipualted her emotionally), then it's still equivilent to a violent rape because she's not all there mentally?

And on what basis are you claiming that Meru was not in her right mind? The fact that she was manipulated does not mean she is mentally lacking. People can be manipulated emotionally and be perfectly sane.

You're right, there is a difference.

Spike reformed. Dukat didn't.

WHAT?! Now, I may be taking this the wrong way, but are you suggesting that if Dukat had said afterwards, "I'm sorry, Meru, I'm going to let you go back to your family, and I'm going to let all the Bajorans go, and I'm going to remove every Cardassian from Bajor and go back home," then you would see Dukat's actions towards Meru as different?

Once he has commited the act, it's done, and no change of heart or regret afterwards can change it.

And are you suggesting that what Spike did was not as bad was what Dukat did because SPike felt sorry for it afterwards?

It's not that we don't get your position. We do. It's that your position is wrong.

No, ity's the same. As I said with Elias, we're just using different terminology, that's all.

 

[Tiberius]

By the way, here's that post of mine that originally set things off...

Besides, I can't see Dukat raping a woman. His twisted little mind would find it far more exciting to try to convince the woman that the Cardassians were actually nice guys and that she should love him. For Dukat, the idea of getting a Bajoran woman to fall in love with him while he's overseeing the rape of their world would be much more exciting then imposing himself physically.

We know that Gul Dukat did rape a woman the "traditional" way in "Covenant."

However, I think that in any case where consent has been tainted, be it by drugs or psychological manipulation, it is still rape regardless of whether it involves beating someone to make them comply. So it's still rape.

I see what you mean, but I think that's a grey area.

You'll see that I not actually discussing Meru at all (the exact topic of my post seemed to have gotten lost in the outcry that followed) but was actually discussing what's her name from Covenant.

The grey area was that there is no evidence that he raped what's her name. Yes, she got pregnant with Dukat's child, but she's hardly the first woman to get pregnant to a man other than her husband. And yes, she was sleeping with Dukat, but she's hardly the first woman to have an affair. He didn't kidnap her, and he certainly was a dictator at the time.

He was just a cult leader with a bunch of fanatics crazy enough to follow him.

Now, it's entirely possible that this was a rape, I won't deny it. But since there's no evidence that it was rape in Covenant, and the case of Meru is pretty much conclusive that she was manipulated, the case of what's her name from Covenant is a grey area with regards to whether it was a rape or not.

 

[Sci]

Only time for a quick post, but I'll be back later.

It's like Chris Rock said about the Thomas Jefferson/Sally Hemmings thing:

"People calling it an 'affair.' It wasn't no 'affair.' That was rape. It's not an affair if you can't say no."

I have no idea what that is.

Quick education for you:

Sally Hemings (I got the spelling wrong) was a mixed-race slave owned by Thomas Jefferson. She was part of the Hemings family, who had been owned by the family of Jefferson's wife, the Wayles. In fact, she was the half-sister of Jefferson's wife by Jefferson's father-in-law and one of his slaves.

After Jefferson's wife died, Jefferson apparently took Sally as a concubine and had children by her.

Now, there's an argument to be made that human emotion is messy and complex. It's generally believed that Sally and he had a relationship of sorts, and that they cared for each other. And, hell, maybe they did. Jefferson did allow two of his and Sally's sons to "escape" and emancipated two others, and after Jefferson's death, she was informally freed by the Jefferson family.

But that didn't stop Jefferson from continuing to own her as a slave, nor did it stop him from owning his own children as slaves.

Which is why I agree with Chris Rock -- that wasn't an affair, that was rape. It's not an affair if you can't say no. Slaves don't have a choice, even if their "owners" try to make them think they do; lack of choice is inherent to a condition of slavery.

That was true of Sally Hemings, and that was true of Kira Meru. They were slaves; they didn't really have choices. And any consent they might have given is rendered invalid by the social structures in which they lived.

 

[Paradon]

If he did love Bajoran women and didn't coerced them, that would have been a different story. But in the beginning he did threaten them if they don't comply to his demand. Maru was afraid of for her childern lives more than her own because she knew how ruthless Cardassians can be, so she made the ultimate sacrifice.

 

[Elias Vaughn]

I notice you completely ignored the evidence I pulled from the script proving you wrong. Shall I take that as a concession?

Or did you completely ignore it in favor of assuming your one quote was more solid than my three?

Oh wait. Yeah you did.

You can take it as me interpreting an hour of dramatic television differently to you.

And you can lose the rudeness.

I can, but I choose not to. To be fair, you started with the swearing.

So you are claiming that Meru never wanted to sleep with Meru,

Yes.

she was struggling to escape his grasping hands each time he violated her

No.

and she never felt any affection at all for him?

Yes.

It doesn't say that this is the ONLY reason she is doing it. It's poerfectly plausible that she does have feelings for Dukat.

So now we're down from "She loved Dukat" to "Well, she might have loved him".

Progress!

Although you're still ignoring two other quotes I posted earlier that prove you wrong.

I never said that.

You have repeatedly claimed as a rationale for Meru not being raped that Dukat never threatened her, that she did not have a knife to her throat, that she was never in immediate danger.

So fuck yes you did.

I am simply saying that manipulalting someone into having sex with you through an immediate threat of violence is not the same as manipulating someone's emotions so that they want to have sex with you.

Are the examples carbon copies? No.

But I'm willing to bet that every single case of rape in the history of mankind has been at least slightly different from any other, so this is kind of a moot point. For you.

Because of the lack of immediate violence.

So now you admit that immediate violence is not a necessity for rape. I want to see you say that in your own words, please. I'm not kidding; if you still argue the point, I'm going to repost every time you claimed or implied otherwise.

You want to call them both rape? Fine.

Well, they are. So yes.

But you do see that one of them LACKS immediate physical violence, yes?

I like how you phrased this as a point in your favor even though this is literally what I've been patiently explaining to you this entire thread. That despite the lack of immediate physical violence, it's still rape.

This is literally the problem YOU have been unable to wrap your head around, but here, it's like you're pointing out that I don't understand this.

This sort of thing is where my aforementioned rudeness comes from. You're very frustrating.

Yes, I admit that she was kidnapped and imprisoned. And I do see what you are saying.

[/thread]

But I still think that Dukat, as part of his manipulations of her mind, would have not pressed her to have sex if she said no. I think he wanted to manipulate her mind more than he wanted to have sex with her.

Doesn't matter.

Would she have said yes without being manipulated? Because if not, it's rape.

For instance. Did you ever see Revenge of the Nerds? Remember when Leader Geek I Forget The Name Of put on Leader Jock's costume and had sex with Leader Jock's Girlfriend? That was also rape. Because he manipulated the girlfriend by putting her into a situation where she thought she was having sex with her boyfriend.

If Dukat was manipulating Meru, it was rape.

I'm not saying that he isn't a rapist. He certainly did violently rape people during his time. I'd be shocked if he hadn't.

Like with Meru, yes.

All I;ve ever been saying is that what Dukat did with Meru is not a violent rape of the sort Spike tried to do with Buffy.

Do I need to quote you saying that Dukat didn't rape Meru? Really?

Rape is forcing someone to have sex when they don't want to.

If Meru went to bed willingly, in what way was it nonconsensual?

She was just trying to make the best out of a shitty situation.

Rape is forcing someone to have sex with you when they don't want to. What Dukat did was make Meru WANT to have sex with him.

But at the end of the day she went to bed with him voluntarily.

So if Dukat merely convinced Meru to have sex with him, then you won't cry rape?

The difference is not that one is rape and one is not. They are both rape.

One person fears for their life or the life of someone else. The other person does not.

See? Difference.

It does not change the fact that Meru CONSENSUALLY got into bed with him!

I am aware enough of the definition of rape to know that it means "A person having sex with someone when they don't want to."

And as far as I can see from the episode, Meru wanted to.

I can find more, but I'm bored of this now. But I think my point is clear.

To most people.

I'm sorry, perhaps I should have said violent rape.

Fucking duh.

If you define it like that,

You mean like dictionaries do?

then Dukat did rape her. But if you actually go back and read my post that started all this, I am drawing a disctinction between the two. One uses immediate threats of violence and leaves emotional and probably physical scars. What Dukat did to Meru is different. Perhaps it also leaves physical scars, but you cannot deny that we saw Meru quite comfortable with her relationship with Dukat. That is something that most victims of violent rape cannot say.

Sure.

I am simply saying that they are different. In just the same way a Porsche and a Ferarri are both sports cars, but still different.

And yet, every time I've said that the difference is not that one is rape and one is not, you have argued with me.

Every. Time.

Then at least we agree on that. All I;ve been saying is that they are different, and you;ve just agreed with me, so let's drop it, okay?

NEVER

It's a screencap of an episode of Buffy. I'm just using it to illustrate a point. if it offends you I'm sorry.

Yeah, I didn't realize that at first. I thought it was a picture of an actual rape.

The once again, we agree.

Okay.

Here's an honest question.

how can you both claim that Meru honestly loved Dukat, but then say she was manipulated into it?

Because even though she was manipulated into it does not mean she was aware of that manipulation. I'm sad to say that this sort of manipulation happens in real life, and if it was so easily drtected, it wouldn't happen.

...you just completely missed my point there, didn't you?

So Meru was being manipulated, yes, but she was most certainly unaware of that manipulation,.

Durr

Dukat wasn't going to let her know what he was doing. it would defeat the purpose of what he was trying to do.

You mean trying to get the pretty Bajoran prisoner to drop her panties?

And Meru's feelings were genuine, I believe, even if Dukat had manipulated her into having them.

...

I...

...

I just...

There are no words. And not just because I'm rendered speechless at the stupidity inherent, but because now I honestly feel you just simply wouldn't understand the words if I did have any idea which ones to reply with.

Your homework is to look up the following words in the dictionary(.com), define them, and use them in a sentence: 'genuine', 'manipulate', 'apiary'. The last one is extra credit.

The only one I'm kidding about is 'apiary'.

The issue has never been getting your position. The issue is your position is outright wrong.

And yet the main point I was trying to make is one that you;ve aagreed with.

I think it's a case of both of us misinterpretting what the other was trying to say. Perhaps if I explained that I was using rape to mean a violent rape a la Spike and Buffy, then this wouldn't have happened.

You mean if you had used the words as they actually mean instead of making up your own meanings and then arguing with everyone who tells you otherwise?

Sure, probably wouldn't have happened.

Your definition of rape is wrong, and is indeed vaguely misogynistic.

Let's take, for instance, the example of a man who has sex with a woman who is unconscious because she has been slipped a ruthie.

She is not actively trying to resist (because she is unconscious). No threats have been made. But it is still rape.

Rape is sex without consent. That doesn't require active resistance, and it doesn't require an immediate physical threat. It only requires that sex happen without consent.

I would say that in the case of a woman who has been drugged, it is rape because the rapist took an action against her that directly resulted in her having sex without her consent.

Like murdering her planet by degrees and then taking her away to a space station very much against her will to become a 'comfort woman'?

And interestingly, given that you say that rape is any sex where consent is not given, I must point out that Meru did give consent. (Of course, Meru was still manipulated.)

Still serious about that homework.

Because if you were on our side, you would understand that sexually propositioning someone who is aware that you have the power to kill or torture her and/or everyone she loves is inherently an act of sexual violence, and that having sex with such a person is inherently an act of rape.

As Elias has pointed out, a woman with a gun to her head can still say no.[/quote]

Don't say that like it's a point in your favor. I was mocking you.

So if a woman volunteers to have sex with someone (even if he has manipualted her emotionally), then it's still equivilent to a violent rape because she's not all there mentally?

First of all, I like how you've suddenly changed terms. You never used 'violent rape' before now, I wonder why that is? Because it would be silly to change terms and continue arguing in a way that suggests people had an issue with your last term.

Secondly, if you have sex with an adult woman who "consents" but is severely mentally retarded, you've raped her. Even if she wanted desperately to jump your bone. Because she is unfit to consent.

State of mind matters when we're talking about something this serious.

And on what basis are you claiming that Meru was not in her right mind? The fact that she was manipulated does not mean she is mentally lacking. People can be manipulated emotionally and be perfectly sane.

'not in her right mind' is not the same as 'insane'.

You're right, there is a difference.

Spike reformed. Dukat didn't.

WHAT?! Now, I may be taking this the wrong way, but are you suggesting that if Dukat had said afterwards, "I'm sorry, Meru, I'm going to let you go back to your family, and I'm going to let all the Bajorans go, and I'm going to remove every Cardassian from Bajor and go back home," then you would see Dukat's actions towards Meru as different?

Once he has commited the act, it's done, and no change of heart or regret afterwards can change it.

And are you suggesting that what Spike did was not as bad was what Dukat did because SPike felt sorry for it afterwards?

Now, I may be taking this the wrong way

Yup.

It's not that we don't get your position. We do. It's that your position is wrong.

No, ity's the same. As I said with Elias, we're just using different terminology, that's all.

Yes.

But when you're the one making up new definitions and then not sharing them with the class, it's your own fault.

Evidence: all the times I cited dicitonary.com for definitions so I was clear, and all the times you did not.

By the way, here's that post of mine that originally set things off...

GASP! Another twist!

We know that Gul Dukat did rape a woman the "traditional" way in "Covenant."

However, I think that in any case where consent has been tainted, be it by drugs or psychological manipulation, it is still rape regardless of whether it involves beating someone to make them comply. So it's still rape.

I see what you mean, but I think that's a grey area.

You'll see that I not actually discussing Meru at all (the exact topic of my post seemed to have gotten lost in the outcry that followed) but was actually discussing what's her name from Covenant.

Sure.

But then we stopped talking about that.

It didn't help that I thought the conversation was:

However, I think that in any case where consent has been tainted, be it by drugs or psychological manipulation, it is still rape regardless of whether it involves beating someone to make them comply. So it's still rape.

I see what you mean, but I think that's a grey area.

You really do need to be more clear sometimes.

 

[Tiberius]

That was true of Sally Hemings, and that was true of Kira Meru. They were slaves; they didn't really have choices. And any consent they might have given is rendered invalid by the social structures in which they lived.

I'll disagree in that I honestly think that if Meru had said, "I don't want to," Dukat wouldn't have forced her. I think Meru may have been under the impression that Dukat might have insisted, biut given my oft stated opinion that Dukat wanted to fuck with her mind more than her body, I really do think he would have said, "Of course, I will not force you to do something you are not comfortable with" if she said no.

But of course, Meru was still being manoipulated into it.

Yes.

I disagree. from watching the episode, I think Meru did have a desire to sleep with Dukat, regardless of how that desire was created.

Yes.

Again, I think that Meru did feel some affection for Dukat.

So now we're down from "She loved Dukat" to "Well, she might have loved him".

The way she was acting towards him suggests to me very strongly that Meru had feelings for Dukat.

You have repeatedly claimed as a rationale for Meru not being raped that Dukat never threatened her, that she did not have a knife to her throat, that she was never in immediate danger.

So fuck yes you did.

Dukat never made any threats towards her (unless you count the whole "everything Dukat did to any Bajoran was a threat, even if he was merely commenting about the weather" argument).

Are the examples carbon copies? No.

But I'm willing to bet that every single case of rape in the history of mankind has been at least slightly different from any other, so this is kind of a moot point. For you.

But many of them share the common themes of physical violence used against the victim at the time of the assault.

Many other have the theme of the victim being empotionally manipulated so as to desire sex with the instigator.

I doubt you will find many examples where both of these themes are present.

So now you admit that immediate violence is not a necessity for rape. I want to see you say that in your own words, please. I'm not kidding; if you still argue the point, I'm going to repost every time you claimed or implied otherwise.

I admit that a poerson can be manipulated into having sex with someone with whom they would not normally have sex with. I'm sorry that my use of the term rape caused this misunderstanding, but for me when it has been used it's always been used to mean a violent sexual assault. That physical violence is not the only kind of manipulation that would get a person to have sex against their will.

Well, they are. So yes.

However, I was differentiating between the immediate violence kind of rape and the long term emoptional manipulation kind, for the reasons I mentioned above.

I like how you phrased this as a point in your favor even though this is literally what I've been patiently explaining to you this entire thread. That despite the lack of immediate physical violence, it's still rape.

I;ve never claimed it was not sex that the victim was manipulated into.

Doesn't matter.

Would she have said yes without being manipulated? Because if not, it's rape.

For instance. Did you ever see Revenge of the Nerds? Remember when Leader Geek I Forget The Name Of put on Leader Jock's costume and had sex with Leader Jock's Girlfriend? That was also rape. Because he manipulated the girlfriend by putting her into a situation where she thought she was having sex with her boyfriend.

If Dukat was manipulating Meru, it was rape.

An aside question... Does it include ANY kind of manipulation?

Like with Meru, yes.

bearing in mind I am used to using the word rape to mean violent sexual assault. So let me rephrase. Dukat almost certainly violently sexually assaulted women during his time.

Do I need to quote you saying that Dukat didn't rape Meru? Really?

Bear in mind the way I was using rape, please... If you interpret rape to mean "violent sexual assault" in those passages, which was the way I meant it, I'm sure you would agree. Dukat never had to hit Meru to get her to sleep with him. He also never had to hold a gun to her head, and I doubt that he would have threatened her family to get sex from her either.

Dukat's manipulation of Meru was, in my opinion, entirely confined to the fact that he pretended to be something he wasn't (ie; a nice guy, or at least as nice as possible) in order to get her to develop feelings for him and sleep with him.

And yet, every time I've said that the difference is not that one is rape and one is not, you have argued with me.

Every. Time.

Because I've always interpretted "rape" to mean violent sexual assault. Ever since I was a wee young kid.

Yeah, I didn't realize that at first. I thought it was a picture of an actual rape.

Really? You'd think I;d sink that low?

...you just completely missed my point there, didn't you?

Maybe you should rephrase then?

I was simply saying that as far as Meru was concerned, her feelings were genuine.

My girlfriend could be manipulating me into loving her (although I really doubt it). But the feelings I have for her are the feelings I would have for her if she was being genuine. But if she wasn't genuine and was manipulating me without my knowledge, my feelings would be the same, because to me the difference between genuine love from her and faked love from her is indistinguishable.

Durr

Then as I said above, why would she act any differently, given that she was unable to tell the difference between Dukat manipulating her and Dukat genuinely being that person (instead of just pretending)?

You mean trying to get the pretty Bajoran prisoner to drop her panties?

Like I;ve said many times, I think it was more that he was trying to fuck with her mind rather than have sex with her.

...

I...

...

I just...

There are no words. And not just because I'm rendered speechless at the stupidity inherent, but because now I honestly feel you just simply wouldn't understand the words if I did have any idea which ones to reply with.

Your homework is to look up the following words in the dictionary(.com), define them, and use them in a sentence: 'genuine', 'manipulate', 'apiary'. The last one is extra credit.

I am fully aware of what those words mean.

"I was manipulated into thinking my girlfriend had been involved in a very bad car crash, and I was genuinely concerned for her safety."

So now you can perhaps see my point that a person's emotions can be genuine even if they were manipulated into having them.

The only one I'm kidding about is 'apiary'.

Bee serious.

First of all, I like how you've suddenly changed terms. You never used 'violent rape' before now, I wonder why that is? Because it would be silly to change terms and continue arguing in a way that suggests people had an issue with your last term.

I'm sorry, next time I won't try to clarify once I realise where the problem is.

Secondly, if you have sex with an adult woman who "consents" but is severely mentally retarded, you've raped her. Even if she wanted desperately to jump your bone. Because she is unfit to consent.

Irrelevant. unless you want to show me that Meru was severly mentally retarded. Or are you talking in general now, and not specifically about Meru?

Yup.

Then perhaps you should clarify, because it really sounded like you were saying that what Spike did was forgivable because he felt bad about it afterwards.

Yes.

But when you're the one making up new definitions and then not sharing them with the class, it's your own fault.

I wasn't making it up. I just grew up with that particular association.

Evidence: all the times I cited dicitonary.com for definitions so I was clear, and all the times you did not.

The first one...

1. the unlawful compelling of a person through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse.

Physical force fits in with what I was using rape to mean. To me, duress doesn't mean the same thing as tricking someone into doing it.

Or if I give you a can of soda that I have shaken up and you open it and get drenched, is that duress too?

On second thoughts, please don't answer that. We'll get even further into this than we already are, and this is deep enough for me already.

The second one...

2. any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person.

Again, there's that word force. Which to me means physical force. As in "An act of force".

So I'm sorry that my interpretation of words is different to yours.

 

[Sci]

That was true of Sally Hemings, and that was true of Kira Meru. They were slaves; they didn't really have choices. And any consent they might have given is rendered invalid by the social structures in which they lived.

I'll disagree in that I honestly think that if Meru had said, "I don't want to," Dukat wouldn't have forced her.

Then you are deluding yourself. This is the same man who admitted that he wanted to exterminate the entire Bajoran race.

Then there's also the simple fact that by virtue of having kidnapped her and then hit on her, he was already forcing himself on her.

 

[CoveTom]

Evidence: all the times I cited dicitonary.com for definitions so I was clear, and all the times you did not.

The first one...

1. the unlawful compelling of a person through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse.

Physical force fits in with what I was using rape to mean. To me, duress doesn't mean the same thing as tricking someone into doing it.

Does "duress" mean the same thing as "tricking someone into doing it"? No, obviously not, so I agree with you on that. But no one is saying that Dukat tricked Meru into it. It's not like he fooled her. She knew that she was about to have sex with him. The issue is whether his acts constitute rape. And the definition that you provided says compelling someone by physical force or duress constitutes rape. The "or" would seem to pretty definitively suggest that duress is different from physical force.

So, to be sure, let's go back to the oracle that is dictionary.com and take a look at the definition of "duress":

1. compulsion by threat or force; coercion; constraint.
2. Law . such constraint or coercion as will render void a contract or other legal act entered or performed under its influence.
3. forcible restraint, especially imprisonment.

Obviously, the second definition is not relevant to this discussion, but both the first and the third would seem to be. Look at the first one. It says compulsion by threat or force. It doesn't say that there has to force for it to be duress. Just a threat. And then further on, it says "coercion."

Surely we can agree that there is such a thing as non-violent coercion and non-violent threats. If I am your boss and I demand you have sex with me, and I say that I will fire you if you do not, have I not both threatened and coerced you? And yet, there is no violence stated or implied in that. Firing you is, in fact, completely non-violent. It involves nothing more than a verbal act or signing a piece of paper. But it is still duress by this definition, as it involves both a threat and coercion.

Lastly, I think the third definition is worth mentioning in this context as well. "Forcible restraint, especially imprisonment." Well, Dukat kidnapped Meru. And at the time they had sex, she was still a prisoner of his. So that would seem to suggest duress as well.

It seems to me that on multiple counts, Dukat's actions meet the standard of duress as indicated by the definition above and, if they do, then they would also meet the definition of rape as provided by the same source.

 

[Tiberius]

Then you are deluding yourself. This is the same man who admitted that he wanted to exterminate the entire Bajoran race.

I am fully aware of that. But I am also saying that Dukat wanted - and stated clearly - several times that he wanted the Bjorans to love him. The fact that he thought he could do that while at the same time raping the planet (metaphorical raping!) is proof that he was insane, I think, but the fact remains that Dukat stated he wanted the Bajorans to love him, and given his actions in several episodes, I don't think one can say that he didn't want that.

Even Kira admits it. From Covenant:

DUKAT
I love these people, Nerys. And
they love me. I'd think that
after what just happened in the
temple, you'd realize that.

KIRA
It always comes back to that,
doesn't it? Your desperate need
to win the love of the Bajoran
people. You've never understood
why we don't appreciate you.

Then there's also the simple fact that by virtue of having kidnapped her and then hit on her, he was already forcing himself on her.

Kidnapping someone is different from raping that person.

Now, please don't get started. I'm simply saying that a person can kidnap someone with no intention of raping them, and a person can rape someone without kidnapping them.

And the fact that Dukat kidnapped Meru does not mean he is incapable of accepting Meru's reluctance to have sex with him. As I've said before, it comes down to Dukat's desire to have Bajorans love him being more important than getting some Bajoran booty. DUkat wanted validation, wanted to know that what he was doing was the right thing. And if he could do all those horrible things and still have Bajorans love him, then that would provide the validation he wanted so bad.

 

[Sci]

Then you are deluding yourself. This is the same man who admitted that he wanted to exterminate the entire Bajoran race.

I am fully aware of that. But I am also saying that Dukat wanted - and stated clearly - several times that he wanted the Bjorans to love him.

Which is bullshit. He didn't. He wanted power over them, not for them to love him. If he had wanted them to love him, he would have done things like, not kidnap and enslave their citizenry.

Then there's also the simple fact that by virtue of having kidnapped her and then hit on her, he was already forcing himself on her.

Kidnapping someone is different from raping that person.

Sexually propositioning someone whom you have kidnapped is not.

 

[Tiberius]

Which is bullshit. He didn't. He wanted power over them, not for them to love him. If he had wanted them to love him, he would have done things like, not kidnap and enslave their citizenry.

How can you say that when even Dukat's mind manifesting itself as Kira can see it? "Your desperate need to win the love of the Bajoran people. You've never understood why we don't appreciate you."

Sexually propositioning someone whom you have kidnapped is not.

As I've said before, I do not believe that Dukat ever said to Meru, "I don't care if you say no, I'm gonna have sex with you anyway." Dukat's rape of Meru was not him forcing himself on her when she said no. It was him manipulating her into saying yes. It wopuldn't surprise me if his manipulation of her extended to the point where SHE was the one who instigated it.

 

[Elias Vaughn]

Yes.

I disagree. from watching the episode, I think Meru did have a desire to sleep with Dukat, regardless of how that desire was created.

Jews often wanted to sleep with Hitler.

(No they didn't.)

Again, I think that Meru did feel some affection for Dukat.

Even though you have one quote from someone who wasn't Meru and in fact later stated in three separate scenes that she didn't think that anymore as evidence of such.

Seriously. I've quoted Meru, Kira apologizing to Meru, and Kira talking to Sisko about the situation. Three quotes that you have completely ignored. When you purposefully ignore things that prove you wrong, you're being intellectually dishonest.

The way she was acting towards him suggests to me very strongly that Meru had feelings for Dukat.

Or, as literally everyone but you seems to realize, she was faking it so the man who was masterminding the slavery of her race and pillage of her planet wouldn't seek retribution against her and her family.

Seriously. Which is actually more likely? That she pretended to be into Dukat to save her and her family, or that she looked at the man who routinely sent her people to be tested on in laboratories and work to death in mines and thought to herself "Well, he seems nice. My family should be fine"?

Dukat never made any threats towards her (unless you count the whole "everything Dukat did to any Bajoran was a threat, even if he was merely commenting about the weather" argument).

Which history tells us is valid.

And by history, I mean both real-world history AND everything Dukat himself is responsible for.

But many of them share the common themes of physical violence used against the victim at the time of the assault.

Many other have the theme of the victim being empotionally manipulated so as to desire sex with the instigator.

I doubt you will find many examples where both of these themes are present.

I never claimed they would be.

My point was:

I am simply saying that manipulalting someone into having sex with you through an immediate threat of violence is not the same as manipulating someone's emotions so that they want to have sex with you.

...DOESN'T MATTER BECAUSE THEY'RE BOTH RAPE.

I admit that a poerson can be manipulated into having sex with someone with whom they would not normally have sex with. I'm sorry that my use of the term rape caused this misunderstanding, but for me when it has been used it's always been used to mean a violent sexual assault. That physical violence is not the only kind of manipulation that would get a person to have sex against their will.

Read a book.

However, I was differentiating between the immediate violence kind of rape and the long term emoptional manipulation kind, for the reasons I mentioned above.

Except for all the times you said otherwise, outlined in my last post.

I like how you phrased this as a point in your favor even though this is literally what I've been patiently explaining to you this entire thread. That despite the lack of immediate physical violence, it's still rape.

I;ve never claimed it was not sex that the victim was manipulated into.

That...

Are you just not even bothering to reply to the things I say anymore? Are you now not only making up definitions, but imagining that I said things I didn't?

When did I ever say anything vaguely resembling anything that this statement might have been a coherent response to?

An aside question... Does it include ANY kind of manipulation?

Well that really depends on the definition we're using.

(No it doesn't. I'm mocking your tendency to define words so they mean what you want them to mean.)

Does what include any kind of manipulation?

The thing Leader Nerd did? Holy hell yes it involved manipulation.

Dukat fucking Meru? I'd argue no, but I'm pretending you have a point about Dukat's 'manipulation' here.

bearing in mind I am used to using the word rape to mean violent sexual assault. So let me rephrase. Dukat almost certainly violently sexually assaulted women during his time.

Really now? Read the next quote box. Don't skip over it.

Besides, I can't see Dukat raping a woman.

So which is it? Are you wrong then, or are you wrong now?

Bear in mind the way I was using rape, please... If you interpret rape to mean "violent sexual assault" in those passages, which was the way I meant it, I'm sure you would agree. Dukat never had to hit Meru to get her to sleep with him. He also never had to hold a gun to her head, and I doubt that he would have threatened her family to get sex from her either.

I have no problem conceding to this, because it's literally not what I've ever argued ever.

I never said he 'violently sexually assaulted' Meru. I said he raped Meru, and 'rape' has a wider meaning than just 'violently sexually assaulted'.

Dukat's manipulation of Meru was, in my opinion, entirely confined to the fact that he pretended to be something he wasn't (ie; a nice guy, or at least as nice as possible) in order to get her to develop feelings for him and sleep with him.

And this is where you are wrong.

The threats were implied due to the fact that Meru was in the same room as the guy who would have and could have taken away all the 'gifts' given to her and her family without so much as a second thought.

Because I've always interpretted "rape" to mean violent sexual assault. Ever since I was a wee young kid.

Read a book.

Specifically, the dictionary.

Really? You'd think I;d sink that low?

This is something like four pages of you arguing that Meru hadn't been raped. So kinda.

Maybe you should rephrase then?

If you have to be manipulated into it, it's not love.

If you know full well that the man you're sleeping with is in charge of enslaving your race, unless you are severely messed up mentally, it's not love.

I was simply saying that as far as Meru was concerned, her feelings were genuine.

Still no. For reasons that I and others have attempted to point out to you a dozen times.

My girlfriend could be manipulating me into loving her (although I really doubt it). But the feelings I have for her are the feelings I would have for her if she was being genuine. But if she wasn't genuine and was manipulating me without my knowledge, my feelings would be the same, because to me the difference between genuine love from her and faked love from her is indistinguishable.

...what.

Then as I said above, why would she act any differently, given that she was unable to tell the difference between Dukat manipulating her and Dukat genuinely being that person (instead of just pretending)?

You have a messed up definition of love.

Here's a hint: if the person you're "in love" with isn't real, then your love isn't either. You can't be truly in love with someone who doesn't exist.

And this isn't even going into the outright absurdity of a Jew being in love with Hitler. I know you don't think that's an apt analogy, but it absolutely is.

Like I;ve said many times, I think it was more that he was trying to fuck with her mind rather than have sex with her.

Comfort woman.

I am fully aware of what those words mean.

I very much doubt that.

"I was manipulated into thinking my girlfriend had been involved in a very bad car crash, and I was genuinely concerned for her safety."

So now you can perhaps see my point that a person's emotions can be genuine even if they were manipulated into having them.

I give the sentence a D.

First of all, you failed to define the words, and that was really what I was looking for.

Secondly, did your girlfriend have a history of manipulating you into thinking bad things had happened? Because I'm guessing that if you were aware of said history, you would have been less concerned than if you were unaware of said history.

Read 'The Boy Who Cried Wolf'.

Too bad you didn't go for apiary. That would have brought you up to a solid C, if used correctly.

Bee serious.

Five points off for spelling. D-

I'm sorry, next time I won't try to clarify once I realise where the problem is.

You still haven't actually admitted to not knowing what words mean. So.

Irrelevant. unless you want to show me that Meru was severly mentally retarded. Or are you talking in general now, and not specifically about Meru?

My point was that Meru was unfit to consent. AS SHE WAS A PRISONER AT THE TIME.

I wasn't making it up. I just grew up with that particular association.

Then you should educate yourself so that you know the proper meanings of the words you choose to use.

Evidence: all the times I cited dicitonary.com for definitions so I was clear, and all the times you did not.

The first one...

1. the unlawful compelling of a person through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse.

Physical force fits in with what I was using rape to mean. To me, duress doesn't mean the same thing as tricking someone into doing it.

...and now you're arguing with the dictionary.

Do you see how 'physical force' isn't the only criterion?

You have been arguing over half a definition. And then you've been arguing more when people explain to you that you are mistaken, that half a definition isn't enough. Especially when I've linked to the dictionary definition multiple times, so you don't really have an excuse.

Or if I give you a can of soda that I have shaken up and you open it and get drenched, is that duress too?

...my god.

On second thoughts, please don't answer that. We'll get even further into this than we already are, and this is deep enough for me already.

That's what she said.

The second one...

2. any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person.

Again, there's that word force. Which to me means physical force. As in "An act of force".

So I'm sorry that my interpretation of words is different to yours.

Mine, Sci's, and everyone who actually pays attention to what these words mean.

Read a book.

But I am also saying that Dukat wanted - and stated clearly - several times that he wanted the Bajorans to love him.

The fact that he thought he could do that while at the same time raping the planet (metaphorical raping!) is proof that he was insane, I think,

he wanted the Bajorans to love him.

proof that he was insane, I think,

READ WHAT YOU WRITE.

And also, get over this annoying tendency to assume that everything a character says is the complete and utter truth, especially when they're either clearly an evil dickhole (Dukat) or clearly do not have all the pertinent facts of a situation (Kira's accusation to Meru).

Kidnapping someone is different from raping that person.

But kidnapping and then raping that person is still rape.

How can you say that when even Dukat's mind manifesting itself as Kira can see it?

Wait. That wasn't even Kira in the above quote?

Holy shit.

YOU'RE TAKING THE WORDS OF A DEMONSTRABLY INSANE VILLAIN AS GOSPEL!

He was hallucinating! He was wondering why the people he enslaved and killed wouldn't love him! He is the VERY DEFINITION of the unreliable narrator!

You don't understand what an Unreliable Narrator is, and I'm too lazy to hotlink it right now. Read a book.

Dukat's rape of Meru

This should just be you apologizing and saying you were wrong.

 

[Elias Vaughn]

Actually, this has been annoying me. Tiberius, read this:

SISKO
She did what she had to do to save her family -- to save you.

KIRA
It still doesn't make it right.

SISKO
Maybe not, but it was her decision to make.

MERU
I haven't forgotten him. What do
you expect me to do -- kick and
bite every time Dukat comes near
me? How would that help Taban or
the children?

KIRA
I came because I owe you an
apology. Those things I said...
they were unfair.

I want you to respond to each of these quotes from the episode and explain how they don't prove you wrong.

Keep in mind the last quote, Kira apologizing to Meru, came after the scene with Kira accusing Meru of being in love with Dukat.

 

[Sci]

Which is bullshit. He didn't. He wanted power over them, not for them to love him. If he had wanted them to love him, he would have done things like, not kidnap and enslave their citizenry.

How can you say that when even Dukat's mind manifesting itself as Kira can see it? "Your desperate need to win the love of the Bajoran people. You've never understood why we don't appreciate you."

Because that was obviously Dukat lying to himself -- in fact, it was part of Dukat's journey to finally admitting that he hated the Bajorans and wanted them all exterminated.

Sexually propositioning someone whom you have kidnapped is not.

As I've said before, I do not believe that Dukat ever said to Meru, "I don't care if you say no, I'm gonna have sex with you anyway." Dukat's rape of Meru was not him forcing himself on her when she said no. It was him manipulating her into saying yes.

Which means it's still rape, and therefore not morally ambiguous as you initially claimed.