Original, or Remastered?

[RAMA]

Probably my least favorite element, out of the episodes I've seen, was the needless redesign of the Tholian ships in "The Tholian Web." That was one of the few moments in watching the Remastered show where my gut reaction was "they messed this up, the original was way better."

Don't let RAMA hear you say that...

I agree about the changes to the Tholian ships.

My whole deal with the new effects is the simple fact that I don't see an episode that was actually improved with them. Not once have I ranked an episode higher than I did before the new effects.

So... they're pretty. But they don't make an episode any more valuable than it was before.

I honestly don't care if some people don't like the new Tholian ship, even if they're wrong.

I would say maybe 15-25 episodes were greatly improved with contextual supporting FX in the remastering....there were maybe 4-5 that I rated slightly higher because of the upgrades because I take into account the whole production when judging shows. 80 episodes were improved.

RAMA

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

My whole deal with the new effects is the simple fact that I don't see an episode that was actually improved with them. Not once have I ranked an episode higher than I did before the new effects.

So... they're pretty. But they don't make an episode any more valuable than it was before.

Well, that conflates a lot of things - "improved," "ranking" and "valuable" are three different things.

I wouldn't expect effects to affect how I ranked an episode of TOS relative to others - too little of the content of the show depends upon things like the opticals. Do I like Ricardo Montalban's performance better or less well than William Windom's, that makes a difference - and those things aren't altered in the new versions.

"More valuable" is very vague in this context.

"Improved," OTOH - there are episodes I found improved by the new effects, if only in small ways. And honestly, it was mainly those mattes again. I saw the Remastered version of "The Menagerie" during a limited theatrical release, and the touching up of the Mojave and Rigel environments made a striking difference. The CG long shot of Kirk and Spock and McCoy materializing on Vulcan and walking across a rock bridge over a chasm to the arena does a lot to better sell the design of the original stage-bound set, IMAO (Justman complained in his book that directors would always shoot the false horizon on the planet set from too high an angle for his taste, and the CG addition addresses that cleverly). Those are improvements, just the first couple that come to mind.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

I judt watched the remastered episode "Trouble with Tribbles" on netflix.

Why, oh, did they get rid of the little musical cue letting the audience know that it was kind of funny, when Kirk says that a "small disturbance" has taken place in his log entry right after the brawl?

 

[MacLeod]

My whole deal with the new effects is the simple fact that I don't see an episode that was actually improved with them. Not once have I ranked an episode higher than I did before the new effects.

So... they're pretty. But they don't make an episode any more valuable than it was before.

Wasn't that the point, they didn't remaster the FX to improve the episode in anyway apart from making the episodes more suitable for HD transmission.

A good FX should compliment the story not improve it.

 

[Forbin]

And the old effects are what they are. For me it isn't really an issue of FX choices or quality, it's more... it just doesn't interest me. For me TOS episodes are intrinsically part of a their time, and putting in elements from outside that time makes it something else. To me it's like putting a thick coat of polyurethane on an antique oak tabletop. It makes it look glossy but it's not original. I'm interested in what the original craftsman created, and the technological limits of the time are part-and-parcel with the finished piece.

QFT. Well said, sir.

 

[RAMA]

I'll take Justman's endorsement over some cynical sy-fy whiner drivel any day.

It's funny how TOS-R threads, like their elder-cousin SW Special Edition threads, always get personal.

Justman's endorsement is fairly meaningless with regard to how someone ought to evaluate the merits of the Remastered shows; it ought, however, to serve as some kind of firewall against hidebound denunciations of the project on the grounds that it "violates the intent of the creators."

Maybe, but Justman was a paid consultant for CBS Digital on the remastering project so I wouldn't really call him an objective source.

The new effects are what they are - some are strikingly good, considering the circumstances and budget and lead-time the artists were given, and some are unimpressive by current standards.

And the old effects are what they are. For me it isn't really an issue of FX choices or quality, it's more... it just doesn't interest me. For me TOS episodes are intrinsically part of a their time, and putting in elements from outside that time makes it something else. To me it's like putting a thick coat of polyurethane on an antique oak tabletop. It makes it look glossy but it's not original. I'm interested in what the original craftsman created, and the technological limits of the time are part-and-parcel with the finished piece.

That's my personal take on TOS-R. I have no more desire to see modern FX in TOS than I do in classic Twilight Zone, or Outer Limits, or Buster Crabbe Flash Gordon. It just doesn't add anything of interest for me, and it's someone else's later judgment, informed by years of non-contemporary influence, of how something in the original should look. (I can't read abridged books, either.)

But that's just my perspective, no more right or wrong than the next guy's. It's a personal thing. Somebody might want to put 22" spinner wheels on a '55 Chevy. Not my cup of tea, but I can see why some people would like it.

--Justin

Even if you don't care about new FX they were still needed to live up to the the new HD edition, that will never change. As fans we should be ecstatic that TOS can take the new FX so well, and how seamlessly they fit. It IS a compliment to the original designers and crew. As a fan of TOS before any other Trek existed, I don't feel the need to pretend the old FX are great and bury my head in the sand when new ones exist that superior. There are more than enough people who are content to do so, I simply prefer reality.

RAMA

 

[RAMA]

My whole deal with the new effects is the simple fact that I don't see an episode that was actually improved with them. Not once have I ranked an episode higher than I did before the new effects.

So... they're pretty. But they don't make an episode any more valuable than it was before.

Wasn't that the point, they didn't remaster the FX to improve the episode in anyway apart from making the episodes more suitable for HD transmission.

A good FX should compliment the story not improve it.

Nonsense...FX just as any other area of production can be integrated into the completed whole and either detract or improve a story. Blade Runner without decent FX is a lesser vision. Star Wars with lesser FX isn't ground breaking, and is barely above it's origins as a serial. TOS with lesser FX is a laughingstock to many non-fans.

 

[T'Girl]

So, just CGI out Shatner, and replace him in every scene with Chris Pine in a black tee shirt?

 

[Warped9]

So, just CGI out Shatner, and replace him in every scene with Chris Pine in a black tee shirt?

Don't give them any ideas.

 

[J.T.B.]

Even if you don't care about new FX they were still needed to live up to the the new HD edition, that will never change. As fans we should be ecstatic that TOS can take the new FX so well, and how seamlessly they fit. It IS a compliment to the original designers and crew. As a fan of TOS before any other Trek existed, I don't feel the need to pretend the old FX are great and bury my head in the sand when new ones exist that superior. There are more than enough people who are content to do so, I simply prefer reality.

New effects for HD was a commercial decision, I understand that and have no problem with it. What I tried to explain above is why I personally don't care for the episodes with added effects. I would rather see grainy lo-def VFX shots on my HDTV. The issue is one of personal aesthetic preference, there is no right or wrong answer, and more than there is an answer to whether the early Beatles albums are better in mono or stereo. Some like one, some the other, and both have their reasons. Attempting to dismiss someone who expresses a different aesthetic opinion as pretending or not being in reality is just silly.

--Justin

 

[Rojixus]

I prefer the remastered version. Some people may be content to look at shitty special effects from the 60s but not me! I'll take CGI over matte paintings any day.

 

[Herbert1]

I prefer the Remastered. People seem to forget that the live-action footage was also restored as part of the Remastered project in addition to the CGI special effects. The live-action scenes are much sharper, the colors gorgeous and more saturated, and there is better contrast.

 

[number6]

No but when you factor in the "artist intent" aspect of the argument, it fails on several levels. No one here can actually argue what the original artist intent was. You dismiss my argument about Bob Justman endorsement because he was a consultant on TOS-R, but then Bob Justman was a consultant on TOS-R!! No one is more qualified to make the artistic intent call better than he, as he was the guy who supervised the original effects in the first place.

Prefer what ever version you want, but there is no one here that can determine what is or isn't the artistic intent of the original fx and Bob Justman was part of both. None of you were. Don't tell me I'm wrong for liking TOS-R.

 

[Gary7]

The remastered SFX version introduces corrections and embellishes scenes that were either missing or lacking. From that perspective, I enjoy seeing them. However... many of the episodes in the 1st and 2nd seasons look like primitive CGI. I really wish they'd made a "skin" of the original ship and applied it to the model, and also captured the same lighting.

One exception is in "Return to Tomorrow". The scenes of the Enterprise in Earth orbit are terrific. Certainly leaps and bounds better than what was done in the original (I still cringe seeing that exact profile shot of the Enterprise from a below perspective, and that completely unnatural movement as if someone were bobbing the model on a stick).

It's nice to have both. They each have their own merits. I just don't get how people can be so polarized (completely hate the original or the new SFX). Such shortsightedness.

 

[ColeMercury]

I prefer the remastered versions.

 

[BrotherofShran0]

I like the originals, but I feel what some episodes could have benefited from remastering. For example, the original Doomsday Machine was just fine and better than the remastered one. I would have liked to seen that episode with a few remastered content.

 

[Forbin]

I'll take CGI over matte paintings any day.

Those are two different things.

 

[BillJ]

I'll take CGI over matte paintings any day.

You realize the original mattes were still there? Just cleaned up and extended with CGI.

 

[Gary7]

I agree, the original Doomsday machine looked MUCH better in the original episode. I wish they'd have used that footage and superimposed the CGI ship models (I can't stand that plastic looking miniature of the Constellation wobbling into the maw of the DDM at the end).

 

[RAMA]

I agree, the original Doomsday machine looked MUCH better in the original episode. I wish they'd have used that footage and superimposed the CGI ship models (I can't stand that plastic looking miniature of the Constellation wobbling into the maw of the DDM at the end).

I do believe you are in the great minority on this.

Looks like we'll be having this discussion about STNG soon, Levar Burton tweeted he paid a visit to where the HD Bluray was being remastered.

RAMA