A new B5 series on the horizon?

[Admiral_Young]

Yes, I would agree that perhaps the stigma of being a "cartoon" might put off Joe to such a project but I'm kind of surprised that he hasn't thought about doing this before. I was thinking that you could even do a Valin animated series about the first Shadow war. I once read a really terrific series of fan fics that would have made an outstanding animated series. If he doesn't want to do comics or books then I would suggest that an animated series (non CGI mind you) would be the best way to go.

 

[Sindatur]

Yes, I would agree that perhaps the stigma of being a "cartoon" might put off Joe to such a project but I'm kind of surprised that he hasn't thought about doing this before. I was thinking that you could even do a Valin animated series about the first Shadow war. I once read a really terrific series of fan fics that would have made an outstanding animated series. If he doesn't want to do comics or books then I would suggest that an animated series (non CGI mind you) would be the best way to go.

There's no reason to believe he doesn't want to do comics or novels. WB owns the License, and someone would have to buy that license, and then Pay Authors and pay JMS for his involvement.

The last time someone wanted to do books, he spent alot of time with them, but, they could only afford very little to pay the authors, and could only pay JMS pennies on the dollar for his involvement (Claudia Christian actually was one of those authors). Not being able to pay the authors well, is like not being able to provide a decent budget for TV or movie, and runs the risk of putting out inferior product, which people are complaining Lost Tales and Legend of the Rangers were. So, I'm sure, if someone came with money and desire for novels or comics, he would more than happily work with them.

I don't think he would be worried about the stigma of "cartoon", either, but, the folks putting up the money, who would want to see a profit, definitely would, which is why it would be important, if going the animated route, that it also appeal to the primary "cartoon" audience, kids, as well as appealing to the B5 fans and SciFi fans in general.

 

[Jan]

Yes, I would agree that perhaps the stigma of being a "cartoon" might put off Joe to such a project...

I don't see why it would as he doesn't have any prejudice against doing comics. However, as Sindatur mentions below, it's not something JMS can initiate since he doesn't own B5.

My main concern, though I'd be happy to be corrected, is that many of the subtleties that are so integral to B5 would be lost in a (presumably) weekly animation setting. I know that there are many wonderful movies with excellent animation but I don't think that I've seen any indication of that level of work being carried over into 'regular' cartoons.

WB owns the License, and someone would have to buy that license, and then Pay Authors and pay JMS for his involvement.

And I'm not sure of this but judging from things said at the time of the Mongoose debacle and what Peter David recently said about doing e-book versions of the Centauri Trilogy, WB would get a cut of the proceeds in addition to the license fee.

The last time someone wanted to do books, he spent alot of time with them, but, they could only afford very little to pay the authors, and could only pay JMS pennies on the dollar for his involvement. Not being able to pay the authors well, is like not being able to provide a decent budget for TV or movie, and runs the risk of putting out inferior product, which people are complaining Lost Tales and Legend of the Rangers were. So, I'm sure, if someone came with money and desire for novels or comics, he would more than happily work with them.

In some slight defense of Mongoose, they simply had no idea what they were getting into when it came to the novels and it ended up offending JMS and hurting their ambitious plans for B5. Even if the amount that they'd offered hadn't been far too low, the quality of writers that they had available, including Claudia Christian simply wasn't up to writing novels instead of gaming books.

Jan

 

[Reverend]

My main concern, though I'd be happy to be corrected, is that many of the subtleties that are so integral to B5 would be lost in a (presumably) weekly animation setting. I know that there are many wonderful movies with excellent animation but I don't think that I've seen any indication of that level of work being carried over into 'regular' cartoons.

I think it's certainly possible. The Japanese have been doing arc based animated shows for decades...some even have subtle characterization believe it or not. The 'Ghost in the Shell: SAC' series springs to mind.

As far as western animation goes...I think a lot of it is still stuck with the idea that animation=cartoons and cartoons are for kids. Still, there have been some show runners able to push the envelope within their given restrictions. The Bruce Timm et al animated series (Batman, Superman, Batman Beyond, Justice League, JLU) are probably the best examples. Hell, one of the movies is just out and out *dark*, animation or no.
Though it's defiantly kid friendly, Avatar: The Last Airbender is another stand out, boasting had some surprisingly subtle characters with some unusually mature themes and some excellent arc based story telling.

I think the main obstacle would be setting the tone and selling the networks on the viability of the target audience.

 

[Triple-F]

In some slight defense of Mongoose, they simply had no idea what they were getting into when it came to the novels and it ended up offending JMS and hurting their ambitious plans for B5. Even if the amount that they'd offered hadn't been far too low, the quality of writers that they had available, including Claudia Christian simply wasn't up to writing novels instead of gaming books.

Jan

How do you you know who they had available? As far as I'm aware no one outside the process knows what actual amounts of wonga were being offered. Except for jms mentioning that 500 buck figure a while back on the newgroup - Does seem a bit of a silly figure for what was implied, but Sprange shed a 'bit' more light on it.

Much has been made of our $500 offer to Joe as well - however, as always, it is not the whole truth. That $500 was for Joe reading a 1-2 page outline (and that is what it is called in the novel world!), saying whether he liked it or not, and what had to change. Maybe an hour or two's work? We also made offers (which Joe never mentioned) for him to become a lot more involved, with correspondingly higher returns - the largest was to receive exactly what WB does for each book which, combined, is a _serious_ amount of money.

http://www.themadgoner.com/B5/B5Scrolls/B5Scrolls.htm#Screen1_17_4

@Reverend
I think your right. Selling it to the networks would probably be the biggest obstacle.

 

[Jan]

How do you you know who they had available?

My understanding was that most of the books were being written by Mongoose' own staff, not previously published authors. Certainly the writers of the two non-Claudia written books that I read were. Plus, of course, they were also approaching actors from the show.

I can only comment on the three manuscripts that I had. Two were utterly unreadable and Claudia's might have been saved with extensive work. What percentage of the completed works those three manuscripts constituted, I don't know. But if I picked up the first three books of a series that were that badly written, or even one, I'd certainly never pay for more.

As far as I'm aware no one outside the process knows what actual amounts of wonga were being offered. Except for jms mentioning that 500 buck figure a while back on the newgroup - Does seem a bit of a silly figure for what was implied, but Sprange shed a 'bit' more light on it.

I had an extensive email conversation with Matthew Sprange (at his request-he approached me) shortly after the public spat. While he was very pleasant and initially offered to produce emails and other proofs of what he was saying, he never actually did so. Every single time I tried to get actual back-up or coroboration of any fact or date things got vague and suddenly things were no longer so precise and the proof wasn't available. The only thing that he produced in answer to JMS' assertion that he hadn't gotten items approved by WB was a couple of screen shots approving cover art, nothing to do with the manuscripts themselves. He never produced proof that WB had said that Mongoose was to be allowed to call their books 'canon'. He never produced any of the other offers to JMS that he claimed to have sent either directly or via WB. He never produced permission from WB to use JMS' and/or Fiona Avery's unproduced scripts as 'outlines'. He didn't produce any piece of evidence that I asked for.

Which isn't meant to call him an outright liar. But as was shown when he was called on for referring to the unproduced scripts as outlines, he had more than a slight inclination to spin things to make his products look as desirable as possible.

And at the risk of nitpicking....

truth is a three edged sword.

...should read "Understanding is a three edged sword." Your side. Their side. And the truth.

Jan

 

[Mr Light]

Pardon my ignorance Jan but what relation to you have to the B5 franchise? I don't mean that in a rude way of course. You clearly have some inside information.

 

[Jan]

Pardon my ignorance Jan but what relation to you have to the B5 franchise? I don't mean that in a rude way of course. You clearly have some inside information.

Not rude at all, it's a perfectly valid question. The answer is that I have *no* official affiliation with the B5 franchise/universe/whatever you want to call it. Closest I come is that I've worked on the B5 books team as a fact-checker and 'archivist' which began thanks to my collection of B5 scripts and other stuff (best, coolest job ever!).

I don't think that I have much in the way of inside information but since B5 and the work of JMS have long been my main hobby, I hang out where JMS is active online and I attend his appearances whenever I can. I've asked JMS lots of questions on the moderated newsgroup over time and have often gotten some great answers. So it may look like I've got inside information when I actually just have a mild obsession.

Every once in a while due to the fact that I'm so visible as a B5/JMS fan, I end up a bit more involved in some of the things that happen. That was the case with the Matthew Sprange/Mongoose thing. I asked the question that started JMS talking about it publicly and then Sprange also saw me on other forums as he followed what fans were saying. I think that's why he contacted me and initiated the conversation I mentioned above.

Jan

 

[Jan]

Where did Babylon 5 came from?

That...is a far more interesting question than you might suspect.

You might want to expand on that question if you want a meaningful answer.

Jan

 

[timothy]

Where did Babylon 5 came from?

was'nt a large part of that show from the lord of the rings.

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

How is Babylon 5 formed?

 

[DeepSpaceWine]

How is Babylon 5 formed?

From 2 million 500 hundred tons of spinning metal.

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

All alone... in the night.

 

[Reverend]

^The usual story he gives IIRC is that he came up with the idea in the shower. Or, more accurately he'd been developing two separate story concepts; one a contained political drama type show set on a space station and the other a big sprawling galaxy spanning epic a la Lensman and one day suddenly got the idea to put them together.

 

[David cgc]

He released the original notes he scrawled out, still dripping wet, back in '99 or so. Let me google it up...

Link to summary on Cafepress

Actually, thinking back on the original topic for this thread, this is probably a good guide for what would stay in a Babylon 5 remake. These are the elements of the show that JMS considered foundational.

 

[Mr Light]

Wow, that's actually a pretty amazing encapsulation of the entire series, right at the get-go. After reading all the differences between the "original" story arc and what happened you get the impression he didn't really know where he was going, but he definitely had the spirit of it down pat from the beginning.

 

[David cgc]

There are a few parts that actually seem to fit the final produced show better than they do the initial detailed outline, especially the part about having having Babylon 5 fade away rather than burning out. Fits perfectly with Sleeping in Light, less so with the whole Babylon Prime concept.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Eh, I still think his original idea was a Star Trek "Birth of the Federation" story.

 

[Reverend]

^Nonsense...it's clearly an exact 1:1 Lord of the Rings rip-off!

 

[Yoda]

B5 = 1 part LOTR, 1 part spaceships and shit, and 13 parts ego thrown in a blender.

Surprisingly tasty considering!