My Thoughts on Immigration

[Misfit Toy]

I think it's natural for people to want to think that their country is the greatest. We just need to recognize that people from other lands can feel the same way about their own homes.

Nope. That's the difference between American and European culture. Nothing wrong with it, but this is something that Americans (usually) don't get. We don't want to think that our country is "the greatest". We are not even sure what it means. You would be hard pressed to find any European proclaiming that his country is the greatest (and the ones that do, they are usually crazy white-power nationalists). You won't find cultcross going around proclaiming that England is the greatest, or Deckerd about Scotland, GodBen for Ireland, Shaytan for France, Naira for Greece, and for the sake of my own life, you won't find me claiming that Italy is the greatest country evah (except, maybe, in jest. But even then, I'll need a shower after saying that). The common sentiment is that our own country is usually ok, better in some instances, worse in other. Even if we think our country is pretty cool, it would sound stupid to claim it's "the greatest". "Greatest" in what? What parameters are we using? Wealth? Military power? Health care? General happiness of the population? Average length of penis? The answer, obviously, is that it's just silly. It's not a competition.

A lot of Americans (nice, sane Americans, not the crazy ones) aren't very shy of claiming that "America is the greatest country on this Earth". And are baffled that we don't share the same feeling.

It's a matter of pride, not so much a statement of fact, IMO, anyway.

We understand. But it makes us cringe nonetheless.

Thanks for putting like that. And you're right - I confess that I don't "get it".

To assign parameters would make it too much like a claim of fact. It's not the greatest of anything in particular - it's like cheering for your home team during the Olympics - even if you don't win a particular event, you can still be proud of your country. Or am I still way off-base?

 

[Roger Wilco]

it's like cheering for your home team during the Olympics - even if you don't win a particular event, you can still be proud of your country. Or am I still way off-base?

I frequently root against athletes from my country in the Olympics, firstly because they are often assholes and secondly because I can't stand the way the media hypes them all the time. (primarily referring to alpine skiiers because all other Austrian athletes suck anyway. )

 

[RJDiogenes]

The problem is, of course, illegal immigration. Nobody should be allowed to cut in line. Not only does this hurt the people who are willing to go through proper channels, but it provides exploitable slave labor for unscrupulous businesses.

It's not that simple. Imo migration is a force of nature, the wish to improve your life and your childrens' is unstoppable. If there's too much illegal immigration, than the reason is that laws controlling legal immigration are too tight, which unnecessarily criminalises and marginalises people who don't have a criminal bone in their body.

No doubt the immigration process, like anything else, could be improved, but that's beside the point. Illegal immigrants are, at best, cutting ahead of someone with the same needs and dreams that they have. And I also think that the laws against marijuana are too strict-- but if somebody uses the stuff, they are still a criminal.

But "E pluribus unum" is one of our national mottos and we should absolutely live by it. It's a good thing.

There's only one national motto. It used to be "E Pluribus Unum," as the Founding Fathers wanted. In the McCarthy Era, it was changed to "In God We Trust." Definitely something that needs to be fixed.

I'll say it again: People are people.

Yeah, they're all bigots, regardless of nationality or ethnicity.

To assign parameters would make it too much like a claim of fact. It's not the greatest of anything in particular - it's like cheering for your home team during the Olympics - even if you don't win a particular event, you can still be proud of your country. Or am I still way off-base?

Not really. Although I myself am mainly proud of the values and principals that the country was founded on.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Thanks for putting like that. And you're right - I confess that I don't "get it".

Since it's something that pop up often around here, I wanted to explain what I perceive as a difference between our cultures. I'm glad you didn't take offence.

it's like cheering for your home team during the Olympics - even if you don't win a particular event, you can still be proud of your country. Or am I still way off-base?

I'm the first to cheer for Italian teams and athletes at the Olympics or the World Cup.

But those are competitions: one wins, one loses (or sometimes it's a tie: another weird European concept that leaves most Americans baffled ). In sports, competitiveness and aggression are expected.

Cheering for your home country when there isn't any competition involved seems... pointless.

 

[RJDiogenes]

^^ High self esteem is an end in itself, and doesn't have to come at anybody else's expense.

 

[AliciaD496]

First off I wanted to apologize if my comments came off as particularly racist. I never meant to imply ALL Mexican immigrants were gang members, or even prone to violence, or even stuck up about the language. Obviously there was a large percentage in my community and a majority that I came to know at school were never like that. I also recognize that things..lately at least seem to have gotten further out of hand when it comes to small violent percentage in my hometown and the areas around. I'd probably blame it more on law enforcement though. They've made a conscious effort to recruit more Latinos and Spanish-speaking officers, but it's difficult to know what's 'enough'. These departments aren't used to having to figure out how to combat this kind of violence I think, it's a rural area that's had a recent surge in growth the last few decades.

This article especially discusses the problem: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/pacificnw/2015674784_pacificpeastgangs31.html .

Again I apologize. For the most part I am pro-immigration. Hell, my brother in law is from Ghana and he's one of the best people I know. He came over on his own for his education, fell in love with my sister and had a green-card for a long time before deciding to work or the federal government and being required to gain citizenship. He did it the legal way and it seems a shame that so many others flaunt the system when it makes it that much more difficult for legal immigrants like him.

 

[iguana_tonante]

^^ High self esteem is an end in itself, and doesn't have to come at anybody else's expense.

When you wave around your country as "the greatest", well, it does. You know, by definition.

In grammar, the superlative is the form of an adjectivehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adjective (or adverb) that indicates that the person or thing (or action) modified has the quality of the adjective (or adverb) to a degree greater than that of anything it is being compared to in a given context. English superlatives are typically formed with the suffix -est (e.g. healthiest, weakest) or the word most (most recent, most interesting).

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Wanting people to follow the law does not mean being anti-immigrant. If someone follows proper procedure, I see no reason to be bothered by their coming here. If someone breaks the law, then I have a problem. I would expect that's how it would go if an American violated immigration law in another country...I would expect to get jailed and deported if I did that somewhere else, so I don't see why we can't enforce our own laws.

 

[RoJoHen]

^^ High self esteem is an end in itself, and doesn't have to come at anybody else's expense.

Agreed.

I think we're taking the word "greatest" way too literally here.

 

[doubleohfive]

Only three things qualify for the adjective "Greatest."

1) The Greatest Generation
2) Muhammad Ali
3) Ringing Bros. and Barnum & Bailey's Circus.

 

[SPOCKED]

Only three things qualify for the adjective "Greatest."

1) The Greatest Generation
2) Muhammad Ali
3) Ringing Bros. and Barnum & Bailey's Circus.

uuuuuuh, Kelloggs Frosted Flakes and Ralph Hinkley are conspicuously absent from your list, sir

 

[doubleohfive]

Frosted Flakes aren't the Greatest. They're just grrrrrrrrrrrreat!

 

[RJDiogenes]

^^ You also forgot "The World's Greatest Comic Magazine."

^^ High self esteem is an end in itself, and doesn't have to come at anybody else's expense.

When you wave around your country as "the greatest", well, it does. You know, by definition.

In grammar, the superlative is the form of an adjective (or adverb) that indicates that the person or thing (or action) modified has the quality of the adjective (or adverb) to a degree greater than that of anything it is being compared to in a given context. English superlatives are typically formed with the suffix -est (e.g. healthiest, weakest) or the word most (most recent, most interesting).

See RoJoHen's post. I think the knee-jerk reaction against patriotism has become disturbingly ideological.

 

[iguana_tonante]

So going around chanting that your dad is stronger than other dads is fine, but thinking it's silly is "disturbingly ideological". Talk about lack of self-awareness.

Also, "patriotism" is different from "jingoism".

 

[Deckerd]

Patriotism is fine when it's appropriate. What we're saying is it isn't appropriate in this context, since the USA is just as bad as any other target country for immigrants, when it comes to being less than welcoming.

 

[Deckerd]

In the red corner we have the formidable tag team of Iggy and Decks.

 

[RJDiogenes]

So going around chanting that your dad is stronger than other dads is fine, but thinking it's silly is "disturbingly ideological". Talk about lack of self-awareness.

Also, "patriotism" is different from "jingoism".

That's exactly my point. People can't seem to tell the difference.

 

[iguana_tonante]

"I work up for the betterment of my country." = patriotism.
"My country is the greatest country on Earth!" = jingoism.

You are welcome.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Again, I refer you to RoJoHen's post. If there wasn't confusion, there wouldn't be this knee-jerk response every time somebody dares to love their country.

 

[Deckerd]

Yes but it's a bit like shouting "I love my wife" randomly in the middle of threads, isn't it? Unless it's a thread about relationships, it's not really relevant.