• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

NPR Science Fiction and Fantasy titles vote

Oh, George Orwell, you capitalist pig, you.

I must thank you for an inadvertently delightful reading experience. I despised Orwell for his propaganda for the great crusade against Communism but now I get to despise him as an incompetent reader and essayist. The biggest guffaw of course had to come when Orwell thinks Swift meant us to accept the Houynhms as paragons. The notion that the detailed satire of the Court in the first parts of Gulliver's Travels is redolent of modern politics is wonderfully droll.

I suppose that he meant the Big-Endians and the Little-Endians. That's thoroughly entertaining farce in Swift, but the simple fact is that there are indeed real differences involved in political struggles, mostly over individual pelf and place. But sometimes not, which means the childish claim that politics is a waste of time is a thoroughly conservative position, advanced for those who want a strong government to carry out their preferred policies without wasting time convincing people. In general, if you denigrate "politicians" are time wasters, one need not worry about the maverick who tries to win by serving the majority of people. (Those people are hated and called demagogues and doing things for the majority regarded as, plainly, tyranny over the minority.)

The nitwits who wrote the note speculating why Orwell didn't use his regular pseudonym didn't notice that the essay wasn't entirely ironic in its title. Or that Orwell was offering a definition of "socialism" that might have been entirely acceptable to, well, pretty much anyone, including any bankers, generals and clergymen occasionally prone to sentimentality. Particularly sentimental bankers, generals and clergymen who thought a mundane concern for food, clothing, shelter, medicine and education was not nearly as important as brotherhood. Why ever would someone with a public reputation as a socialist ever consider floating such a balloon under another name?:guffaw:

The small minded nastiness of Orwell's defenders in the thread perfectly memorializes the little turd. 1984, with its picture of a monolithic and invincible Communist tyranny terrorizing its victims forever was of course refuted withn the decade. Nonetheless, 1984 was intended to provide a picture of the eternal horrors that Communism would bring. Somehow, through magical powers of subversion, the devastation of WWII would be wiped clean away and the dirty Reds would threaten to kill us all in our beds!

Justifying an antiCommunist crusade is exactly what Orwell meant his book to do. It was propaganda justifying the horrors of the antiCommunist crusade, because you know, it's an imperfect world full of shades of gray and all heroes are ambiguous and tough choices have to be made and we can live with it. Orwell was living up to the spirit of 1984 when he informed blacklisters who would be appropriate targets. Defending and promoting his hysterical drivel is defending and promoting the antiCommunist crusade it sought so hard to inspire, including the millions of deaths.

1984 was meant to be a portrait of a Communist regime. Orwell depicted it as just another warring empire, supposedly just like the German Empire and the old Russian Empire and the French Empire (but possibly not the British Empire, as I suspect nothing was too vile for the asshole.) That was his version of Big-Endism and Little-Endism, where the Communists weren't really menaced at all! It was just pointless ideological nonsense, covering up the essential identity of imperialism and Communism. 1984's admirers seem to have critical skills even less developed than Orwell, so maybe they don't realize this.

Of course, if that's the case, there's no need for 1984's pretense there's some metaphysical horror afoot, but only a fool or a child ever thought Orwell anything but a malicious hack. Historically, it was the Free World Orwell sought to warn against the demonic menace which made up phony enemies as justification for multitudinous invasions, attacks and savage wars. But the dread monster Communists whose wars, attacks and interventions can be counted on the fingers of one hand. Calling this absurdity the truth is itself a damned lie.

Praising 1984 is for the die hards bent on justifying the slaughters of millions. That's beyond creepy, into vile.
 
The actions of the Communist world against it's own citizens and the rest of the world justified said "crusade".
 
Anyway, getting back on topic . . . .

I was gratified to see that I AM LEGEND made the list. I admit it got my first vote. And I probably would have gone for MARTIAN CHRONICLES above FAHRENHEIT 451, but both are good choices.
 
And hammer and sickle cheerleading aside, 1984 is also great reading. And though I'm NOT a fan of Ayn Rand, I would say her "science fiction" novels are worth checking out. They don't deserve a place on this list, I don't think, but for the sake of cultural literacy, especially our illustrious culture...

Glad Michael Moorcock, some graphic novels and Zahns SW Thrawn trilogy make it, too.

But Shanara? I tried reading it once, many years ago, didn't make it. Should I try it again, or is it indeed crap?
 
Anyway, getting back on topic . . . .

I was gratified to see that I AM LEGEND made the list. I admit it got my first vote. And I probably would have gone for MARTIAN CHRONICLES above FAHRENHEIT 451, but both are good choices.

I always felt that The Martian Chronicles is one of, if not the best, sci-fi books ever. A lot of sci-fi, including Asimov, misses a human element but TMC has that in loads. Love it.
 
What impressed me was the distribution. The list included the founders of Sci-Fi, Shelly, Wells and Verne to modern writers. A good mixture of hard scifi and fantasy.

It just shows how healthy the scifi community is.

My only comment. Watership Down, isn't that a children's book??
 
The actions of the Communist world against it's own citizens and the rest of the world justified said "crusade".

Ultimately the "Communist world" - the Soviet Union and its hegemony, anyway - collapsed because it was no damned good for much of anyone.

Precisely. The truth is Eastern Europe was bloody costly for the Soviet Union to maintain - dumping money not just into the military, but the governments of the Eastern Bloc was a losing proposition for decades. Eventually the Soviet Union cut the money flow, the Eastern countries were finally allowed to take on Western loans and the rest, as they say, is history.

My only comment. Watership Down, isn't that a children's book??
It's not just a children's book. It's a classic of children's literature... so whatever process included it but excluded J.K. Rowling and the like baffles me (not that I am complaining, as I said, one of my all-time favourite books as a kid.)

And hammer and sickle cheerleading aside, 1984 is also great reading. And though I'm NOT a fan of Ayn Rand, I would say her "science fiction" novels are worth checking out.

Eh.

I've read Atlas Shrugged and Anthem, which I presume are the novels you meant. I think most people can pass on Atlas Shrugged, honestly. It's overlong, turgid, and it took me literally months to read through one spectacularly rambly speech that took me literally months to read.

Anthem's alright though - a nicely paranoid dystopia - and thankfully a good deal shorter.
 
No Ayn Rand anywhere near, either.

Can't say it was missed...

Nonetheless, 1984 was intended to provide a picture of the eternal horrors that Communism would bring.

I read it as a cautionary tale about investing absolute power in the state generally. Though I do acknowledge Orwell's vision was formed by what he saw happening in Stalinist Russia (and it's a legit critque, unless you're one of those people in Russia reforming Stalin's image), I think your reading is a bit too narrow.

And hammer and sickle cheerleading aside, 1984 is also great reading. And though I'm NOT a fan of Ayn Rand, I would say her "science fiction" novels are worth checking out. They don't deserve a place on this list, I don't think, but for the sake of cultural literacy, especially our illustrious culture...

1984 is definitely and excellent read, but Rand? I think I'll live if I never read her; I've got a lot of other stuff to do.

My only comment. Watership Down, isn't that a children's book??

I suppose, but I'm not quite ready to read it to my daughter yet...maybe in another year or two.

It's not just a children's book. It's a classic of children's literature... so whatever process included it but excluded J.K. Rowling and the like baffles me (not that I am complaining, as I said, one of my all-time favourite books as a kid.)

I've not read Harry Potter, but apparently it's more of a children's book in the modern sense - not really a classic of literature like Watership Down.
 
Last edited:
Though Orwell was one of the greatest oponents of Communism, 1984 is not about Stalinist Russia. Orwell's innovation was to show what a complete Totalitarian state (and he meant a state that control practically everything) would look like. Big Brother is actually based on Lenin not Stalin. A lot of people think Emmanuel Goldstein, is based on Trotsky but it and the 2 minute hate is based on Nazis anti-semitism. The famous "WAR IS PEACE, FREEDOM IS SLAVERY, and IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH" is actually based on western propaganda. Thought crimes and Thought police are also derived from the various moral improvement movement in the early 20th century (like the temperance movement). Finally there a a lot of dings at the BBC and Airstrip One is actually a tongue and cheek reference to the American "occupation" during WWII.

So Orwell like any good writer were influenced by many different sources.
 
1984 tackles totalitarian regimes and propaganda in a wider sense, not just Stalinism, but it's highly unlikely Orwell modelled Big Brother on Lenin. It was Stalinism that rightfully appalled Orwell and Stalin, not Lenin, would have been one of his major influences in writing the book and creating Big Brother.
 
To paraphrase a well-known science joke, 1984 is about a spherical totalitarianism in vacuum. Such a society is impossible to maintain, though many communist states have tried it and failed (the only one actively trying to do it now is North Korea).
Many of the small details, like constant shortages of various consumer goods, kids spying on their parents, propaganda from a very small age, bragging about meaningless numbers on the news and such felt very familiar to me as someone who was born in former USSR. It's a great book, one of the best I've ever read and it deserves the high place on this list.
 
1984 tackles totalitarian regimes and propaganda in a wider sense, not just Stalinism, but it's highly unlikely Orwell modelled Big Brother on Lenin. It was Stalinism that rightfully appalled Orwell and Stalin, not Lenin, would have been one of his major influences in writing the book and creating Big Brother.

Part of Stalinism that most disturbed Orwell was the deification of Lenin. Big Brother was the face the state created as a focus of idealization just like Lenin. Everybody hated Stalin so that's why even Stalin promoted the cult of Lenin.
 
1984 is worth rereading every election year, just for the reminder of what the core motives for seeking political power are.

Well you have to balance that fact with the knowledge that most politicians are incompetent. Something my Left-wing brethren keep forgetting.
 
Part of Stalinism that most disturbed Orwell was the deification of Lenin. Big Brother was the face the state created as a focus of idealization just like Lenin. Everybody hated Stalin so that's why even Stalin promoted the cult of Lenin.
I don't think that holds up since Big Brother isn't a dead hero of the cause, but an omnipresent leader (whether real or purely propagandistic) who exists in the here and now. Plus there was a cult of personality cultivated for Stalin, too, not just for Lenin. The use of a propagandistic cult of personality is a typical feature in totalitarian regimes. Big Brother broadly reflects that, with some particular similarities to the Stalinist regime.

Anyway, I don't think the various aspects of 1984 can be narrowly pinned down as each having a single influence. For example, part of the influence for Big Brother was actually British recruitment pamphlets. And Goldstein likely represents both Trotsky and the Nazi vilification of Jews, as well as the general propagandistic ploy of channeling rage and resentment towards an enemy.
 
Part of Stalinism that most disturbed Orwell was the deification of Lenin.

Bingo. Although Stalin himself had a similar degree of iconography and cult worship. It's true most of the Stalin statues were taken down after his death, but there were a lot of them up at the time.

The short version is 1984 tackles the concept of the totalitarian state generally but is informed by the Soviet - and by Soviet one does mean Stalin - specifically. Big Brother is the abstraction of the cult of the identity - just as the Stalinists revered a dead man whose life story was refashioned to meet the needs of the ideological moment, Oceania has merely gone the next step to a ficituous man whose paternalistic autocratic identity is infinitely malleable.
 
1984 is worth rereading every election year, just for the reminder of what the core motives for seeking political power are.

Well you have to balance that fact with the knowledge that most politicians are incompetent. Something my Left-wing brethren keep forgetting.

Balance? We've seen some fine examples of what happens when incompetence is married to the urge to wield power for its own sake (I won't cite examples if the folks on the Right don't volunteer their own list - either would drag us off-topic). Point being that while Orwell's nightmare scenario was one of crushingly effective totalitarianism, a failed dictatorship leaves almost as much human suffering in its wake.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top