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This is the Captain Speaking...

Wingsley

Commodore
Commodore
More than any other STAR TREK series or movie that I remember, on TOS we got to see visiting characters on the Enterprise missions, civilians no less, get to pull rank on Captain Kirk. This was more than just a flag officer giving Kirk orders on a subspace radio conference call. TOS showed us both the incredible power (and discretion) of a starship captain and also on occasion the civilian power to overrule the captain's authority.

Robert Fox didn't beat around the bush. He gave Kirk a direct order right there on the bridge, and Kirk obeyed.

Galactic High Commissioner Ferris was more patient with Kirk, but eventually ordered the Enterprise to abandon the search for the missing shuttlecraft.

Commissioner Hartford was ill, but still complained and prodded Kirk.


It is an interesting conflict. On the one hand, a starship captain on the frontier is often depicted as being largely autonomous and awesomely powerful. Kirk got away with bringing down Landru, Vaal, and leaving behind his calling card on other worlds as well. Starfleet never relieved him of duty for it, and they obviously had reports from him. On the other hand, the Federation could send a civilian to the Enterprise, and Kirk had to take orders and assume the "special representative" and his mission were of paramount importance.

Naturally, this is unlike any example we would see during the Cold War or afterwards.

But Mr. Roddenberry and Mr. Coon were wise in depicting the Starship Enterprise and her crew as something more than just a military unit. Eps like "A Taste of Armageddon", "The Galileo Seven" and "Metamorphosis" showed a chain of command extending to civilian authority, and Kirk taking orders from a civvie. And these civilian characters, while they are portrayed by guest stars of the week (and very well, I might add) they do not simply come across as the "outsider of the week" to give Kirk trouble. Instead, they have depth because they represent civilian authority over uniformed personnel.

It makes me wonder about certain aspects of the STAR TREK Universe, particularly the TOS Universe, left unexplored. Take for instance the crisis on Tarsus IV. True, Kodos seized power during the crisis and he had to escape to avoid being held accountable. But the Tarsus IV and Cestus III incidents make me wonder what kind of authority is created, or granted, or recognized, to "build" new colonies and project new encroachments in an ever-expanding Federation. What does the Federation do, appoint some kind of provisional viceroy to administer starships, robot freighters, colonists and materiel on some kind of campaign to establish bases, colonies and other facilities in places where the Federation desires a presence? (I'm thinking about everything from Tarsus to Cestus to Benecia to Sherman's Planet to Delta Vega; someone had to have a plan to make those installations, manned or unmanned, happen.)
 
It is an interesting conflict. On the one hand, a starship captain on the frontier is often depicted as being largely autonomous and awesomely powerful. Kirk got away with bringing down Landru, Vaal, and leaving behind his calling card on other worlds as well. Starfleet never relieved him of duty for it, and they obviously had reports from him. On the other hand, the Federation could send a civilian to the Enterprise, and Kirk had to take orders and assume the "special representative" and his mission were of paramount importance.

Naturally, this is unlike any example we would see during the Cold War or afterwards.

There is a theory that this was Troi's real job in TNG, which is why she was on the bridge so often. Her "counseling" was just an excuse to make sure the crew remained committed to Federation doctrine.

There is an example of this during the Cold War, just not on the Western side of the Iron Curtain.
 
Hmmm... I never considered any of these characters, not even Troi, to be like political officers on a Soviet submarine (Remember THE HUNT FOR RED OCTOBER?)
 
It is an interesting conflict. On the one hand, a starship captain on the frontier is often depicted as being largely autonomous and awesomely powerful. Kirk got away with bringing down Landru, Vaal, and leaving behind his calling card on other worlds as well. Starfleet never relieved him of duty for it, and they obviously had reports from him. On the other hand, the Federation could send a civilian to the Enterprise, and Kirk had to take orders and assume the "special representative" and his mission were of paramount importance.

Naturally, this is unlike any example we would see during the Cold War or afterwards.

There is a theory that this was Troi's real job in TNG, which is why she was on the bridge so often. Her "counseling" was just an excuse to make sure the crew remained committed to Federation doctrine.

There is an example of this during the Cold War, just not on the Western side of the Iron Curtain.

Ridiculous....in fact, they made the point in Yesterday's Enterprise of NOT having Troi there, in the most militaristic Trek setting of all.
 
It is an interesting conflict. On the one hand, a starship captain on the frontier is often depicted as being largely autonomous and awesomely powerful. Kirk got away with bringing down Landru, Vaal, and leaving behind his calling card on other worlds as well. Starfleet never relieved him of duty for it, and they obviously had reports from him. On the other hand, the Federation could send a civilian to the Enterprise, and Kirk had to take orders and assume the "special representative" and his mission were of paramount importance.

Naturally, this is unlike any example we would see during the Cold War or afterwards.

There is a theory that this was Troi's real job in TNG, which is why she was on the bridge so often. Her "counseling" was just an excuse to make sure the crew remained committed to Federation doctrine.

There is an example of this during the Cold War, just not on the Western side of the Iron Curtain.

Ridiculous....in fact, they made the point in Yesterday's Enterprise of NOT having Troi there, in the most militaristic Trek setting of all.

Ensignharper, that only strengthens his point. The most militaristic setting wouldn't have her, of course. But he was saying her role was to be a check and balance to the militaristic side of the enterprise in the real universe, because they aren't pure military as they were in Yesterdays Ent.

not saying i agree or disagree but it's an interesting thought.

although, this is a TOS discussion, and i don't mean to turn it into a TNG/TOS comparison
 
Robert Fox i can understand to some extent, it makes sense to put the ship temporarily under him.

Wasnt Ferris enforcing some bigwigs orders?
 
But the Tarsus IV and Cestus III incidents make me wonder what kind of authority is created, or granted, or recognized, to "build" new colonies and project new encroachments in an ever-expanding Federation. What does the Federation do, appoint some kind of provisional viceroy to administer starships, robot freighters, colonists and materiel on some kind of campaign to establish bases, colonies and other facilities in places where the Federation desires a presence?

Roddenberry said a few times Star Trek is what you imagine it as. I get the impression that the federation is actually more so a pretty loose confederation, with worlds autonomous hence why vulcan still sends an ambassador to earth even though they are both part of the UFP. Colonies probably get set up by both private groups getting some sort of federation charter and also by the various goverments of earth, vulcan, andor etc who also get the same sort of charter. since this comes from the federation council which all the members worlds, or least homeworlds send representatives to it avoids conflict.

Ensignharper, that only strengthens his point. The most militaristic setting wouldn't have her, of course. But he was saying her role was to be a check and balance to the militaristic side of the enterprise in the real universe, because they aren't pure military as they were in Yesterdays Ent.

yeah i think since in yesterday's enterprise the federation and therefore earth is fighting a losing total war against the klingons they dont need troi to there to "enforce doctrine" since starfleet in this timeline isnt doing any exploration i imagine
 
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