I notice that when people try to defend the PD, they jump to the use of military force in a political scenario as an example of potentially bad inteference. Leaving aside the question of weighing the costs and effects of military intervention, we see plenty of examples in Trek of planet-wide NATURAL disasters that the UFP refuses to intervene in out of allegiance to the PD. And of course no one on this thread is bringing that up, because then the bankruptcy of the PD is revealed a lot more obviously.
The Federation Must Die.
- Thread starter MrBorg
- Start date
They claim to value all life. If they truly value all life as they claim to, they'd be willing to make a sacrifice to save the lives of innocent people.
sonak is also correct that the Federation will turn a blind eye to a natural disaster even if it would wipe out the species. Specifically if it was a pre-warp civilization. We see this in "Pen Pals" (TNG). Picard does not want to help the civilization, even though billions of people could die.
I think in case of genocide and war, which the two kindda go hand in hand, if we bring the leaders of the opposing factions face to face on neutral location for negotiation, that might work better. The words might carry more words if we had stay neutral. The way I see it, if we impose some kind of military forces on either side, there is no guarantee the war will stop. And not only that we could possibly worsen the conflict by killing innocent civilians. Whether it was intended or not doesn't matter much. Think of a psychological affect a foreign military forces occupying their homeland. People won't like it. How would you like it if Russia set up a large military bases on U.S. soil? It nearly started World War III when the Soviet Union place nuclear missiles on Cuba.
Correction, we say that happen once in "Pen Pals". In fact, Starfleet's even gone out of it's way to help prevent disasters, like in "Paradise Syndrome".
I do not think the Federation needs to be destroyed, but I think some internal political turmoil--some serious self-examination--is in order to flush out the immense amount of political detritus (bad precedents, bad politicians, possible unconstitutional decisions and legal code). Some unrest may be very beneficial.
Actually, I think the best thing that could happen to them would be a credible rival. Not another "we want to conquer the galaxy" type rival, but a political and trading adversary that offers a different but legitimate point of view. Something that has to be given serious thought and cannot just be dismissed out of hand.
Actually, I think the best thing that could happen to them would be a credible rival. Not another "we want to conquer the galaxy" type rival, but a political and trading adversary that offers a different but legitimate point of view. Something that has to be given serious thought and cannot just be dismissed out of hand.
Watch that. I'll be the first to admit that the USA is, as you say, deeply flawed in many ways, and I'll never be a flag waver, but it's my home.
Besides, once I'm "elected", heh, president, things will change for the better.
I think American people are great but the politicians... not so much. foreign invasions and all that. it's the ruling elite of most contries that are the problem.
with the Federation you get the vision that it's Earth's empire. Dominated by Earth and set up for earth. the smaller worlds get swallowed up because it's supposedly good for them but it's good for Earth to have all the allies they can get.
OK, maybe I shouldn't have said "plenty," but that's at least two, and it's a monstrous enough policy. We can also assume it happens more frequently, but how many episodes of "the crew stands by and does nothing while millions die in natural disasters" could Trek and the audience have taken?
I was also lumping "dear doctor" in with this, but that's not quite fair since that was Archer acting on his own before a PD or the UFP. Though I'm sure Picard would've made some b.s. speech applauding Archer's decision had he been there.
Look, OK there is no perfect government and yes the Federation does have problems when the prime directive is in the way, but at the end of they day they abolished famine, greed by acquiring tangible assets because money is not the real driving force of what is today (money is the mother of all fuck ups) and on top of that they stopped silly things like stealing and wars with other countries, these accomplishments are very outstanding within a civilization of any kind and in my view the Federation is a force for GOOD.
I'm not convinced money or religion or any other "tangible" factor you can point to is the cause of the problems with humanity...I think it's human nature itself. If you take away one excuse for conflict, we're great at finding a new one. I am convinced discrimination still takes place on Earth--but most importantly, rather than seeing our "us and them" as a matter of internal race/religion/ideology, etc., humanity and the Federation still DOES have an "us and them" mentality but towards the other species out there. They pushed it outward but did not get rid of the problem. Thinking that they did will only get them in trouble.
Watch that. I'll be the first to admit that the USA is, as you say, deeply flawed in many ways, and I'll never be a flag waver, but it's my home.
Besides, once I'm "elected", heh, president, things will change for the better.
I think American people are great but the politicians... not so much. foreign invasions and all that. it's the ruling elite of most contries that are the problem.
Ah, common ground. Good.
In "Homeward" it would have taken thousands of starships working around the clock to evacuate that planet, thousands of starships pulled away from their other equally important duties that are now unfulfilled.
They would then have to find a new world for them to inhabit, make sure that the world is uninhabited and nothing in the ecosystem will kill them. A huge support team would have to be left there for years to make sure that they all adapt to this and somehow get through with their culture intact (likely impossible). The Feds now have a new pet vassal state that once was a thriving independent culture. Bravo.
Also, in a larger geopolitical sense saving this one world like thay would set a new precedent in that it's what Starfleet MUST do in all such situations from now on and there must be a Task Force to deal with it.
In order to create this new task force personnel and ships must be pulled away from other duties like, say, DEFENSE and put to work, thus ultimately weakening the Federation in an obvious way that their enemies would clearly notice and capitalize on.
Congratulations, you have turned the Federation into a Galactic Nanny State, created various dependent Vassals who can't survive on their own, and given signs to your enemies that you've weakened yourselves and your economy leaving your territory or contest regions ripe for the picking.
Well done.
By the time of TNG, the Federation spans 8000ly has over 150 members, it's population could be in the region of hundreds of billions if not close to a trillon. Now witha population that vast there are going to be some people who have certain flaws, just as today. But by and large like today they seem to be in the minority.
As for the issues regarding the PD, they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. Some people would argue today that the Western Nations(esp: the USA) should keep it's nose out of there affairs).
As for the Maquis, the inferrence from TNG when planets swapped and the population choose not to be relocated, was so long as they didn't bother the Cardassians they would be left alone. The fact that the Cardassians choose to ignore that or certain colonists start causing trouble is a different issue. At the end of they CHOOSED to live under Cardassian rule. Now you can argue forced relocation etc.., but at the end of the day the Federation has to do wghat is considered best for it's entire population. So the new borders and the DMZ that came about with the Cardassian treaty, if it hadn't been signed it could have led to another war, costing who knows how many lives all so a few colonists could stay where they were. It comes down to numbers at the end of the day.
So what if the Federation hopes that one day the Cardassians/Klingons/Romulans etc.. will join one day. Thats a dream of a better tomorrow where we live in peace withut threat of war. They aren't forcing them to join, they didn't say join us before you can have the replicators.
As for the issues regarding the PD, they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. Some people would argue today that the Western Nations(esp: the USA) should keep it's nose out of there affairs).
As for the Maquis, the inferrence from TNG when planets swapped and the population choose not to be relocated, was so long as they didn't bother the Cardassians they would be left alone. The fact that the Cardassians choose to ignore that or certain colonists start causing trouble is a different issue. At the end of they CHOOSED to live under Cardassian rule. Now you can argue forced relocation etc.., but at the end of the day the Federation has to do wghat is considered best for it's entire population. So the new borders and the DMZ that came about with the Cardassian treaty, if it hadn't been signed it could have led to another war, costing who knows how many lives all so a few colonists could stay where they were. It comes down to numbers at the end of the day.
So what if the Federation hopes that one day the Cardassians/Klingons/Romulans etc.. will join one day. Thats a dream of a better tomorrow where we live in peace withut threat of war. They aren't forcing them to join, they didn't say join us before you can have the replicators.
It's probably fair to say that I'm oversimplifying things a bit, even if the gist of my argument is not wrong.
It happens every now and then.
Fair enough. But I don't think that either bit of speciesism there is indicative of the attitudes of the majority of Federates. There's only one person who distrusts Spock for looking Romulan; he's defended by numerous other Humans. Solok may think Vulcans are superior to Humans, but his crew seems to have no problem socializing in a friendly manner (well, as friendly as one gets as a Vulcan) with the DS9 crew after the baseball game, and make no effort to defend him when he behaves like a fool afterwards.
...I agree, but I think it's more complicated than that. After all, for all that Sisko has some prejudice towards the Ferengi, Quark himself was over simplifying things -- he claims that Ferengi have no slavery, but I do not think that it's reasonable to call the oppression of Ferengi women, nor the exploitation of lower-class Ferengi workers, anything other than slavery by another name.
And for all that Sisko has some prejudices against the Ferengi (at least as of Season Two of DS9), that doesn't stop him from sponsoring the application to Starfleet Academy of the very first Ferengi in Starfleet.
Even if there are occasional instances of personal speciesism, it seems pretty clear that the Federation's institutions do not engage in institutional speciesism. There's no reason to think that a Ferengi immigrant to Earth would be mistreated by officials, or that you'd have any trouble catching a cab in New York City if you're green, or that you'd be paid a lesser, unfair wage for being a Andorian chan.
Perhaps not. However, my concern is that, frankly--one would think that such speciesism would be actively discouraged in a society valuing diversity.
This is what I mean by "deep denial". The Federation assumes that, since speciesism is not "institutional", it therefore is not a problem within the Federation.
I believe Nog himself noted in "Homefront" that it was very difficult for him to find acceptance among the other cadets--due to his being a Ferengi.
Interestingly enough--Kirk's line said "We find the one quite adequate." While I admit it was a relief, considering Roddenberry's...misgivings...still, to this day, I'm not entirely sure exactly what he was trying to say to Apollo.
Well...while books aren't canon--and the Crucible trilogy is out of synch with the normal TrekLit continuity--still, in the McCoy Crucible book, he notes to the girl he comes to marry (in the alternate timeline where he saves Edith Keeler), "Don't you know I don't believe in a heaven?"
Still, your point about some instances of Christianty being seen/mentioned is fair enough.
Fair enough. But what of Picard's remarks in "Who Watches The Watchers?"
Institutionally, no. But again--though the law does not discriminate, the mindset still exists. Again, the Federation assumes that since there is not institutional bigotry that there is no bigotry, period.
Again, if the Federation truly valued diversity, would it not make a constant effort to educate its populace on the values and importance of such?
Again, my concern is simply that the Federation as a society prefers to tell itself that everything is fine--because it doesn't want to have to do the hard work required for such education.
In the end, the problems of a society come from the culture. Institutional problems are merely a symptom--not the disease.
Yes...which was my point about imperialism. Apologies for not putting "cultural" in front of the term....
And I'm not against that. I'm simply pointing out the contradiction in putting "diversity" on such a high pedestal--and then saying that one's own way is superior.
Hence, my often noting that Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations is highly illogical, highly self-defeating, and altogether impossible to impliment. It's frankly astonishing that the Vulcans, of all people, would promote such a concept.
Here's my problem: where do you cross the line from mere intolerance into bigotry? Somehow, I doubt the Federation has ever really bothered to try and answer that question.
To that, Sci, I would point to your separation of institutional bigotry from individual bigotry. Namely--we see individuals engaging in self-reflection--showing the guts to admit when they're wrong. But I don't really see much evidence of the institutions themselves taking a hard look at the problems of the society.
Indeed, Sisko himself discussed the willing blindless in "The Maquis, Part I". He notes to Kira that Starfleet Command in general, and Admiral Nechayev in particular, are so used to the idea of paradise, they possess a naive kind of "sainthood", assuming that all living in "paraside" are therefore saints. But as Sisko himself concludes...the only reason everyone looks like saints is that "It's easy to be a saint in paradise."
Again--I do not in any way endore that notion. I do think those flaws run deeper than most would care to admit--but such flaws warrant reform, not destruction.
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It's spelled H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-C-Y.
But the combination of snooty moralizing, knee-jerk imperialism (why is it always the other guy's fault when Starfleet trespasses on alien turf?) and occasional shockingly ruthless behavior is what gives the Federation and Starfleet their unique charm. I wouldn't have it any other way. If the Federation and Starfleet were as perfect as they like to think they are, what a bore they would be, and who wants stories about bores?
Wouldn't do any good. It's very doubtful you'd end up with anything better, and likely you'd end up with worse. Corruption, two-faced-ness and hypocrisy is just how the universe works.
Were you really rooting for the bad guys in DS9?
If there was any message to that series, it was definitely that, as flawed as the Federation might be, it was a shitload better than the truly scary people it was fighting. Or maybe you meant that, DS9 demonstrates that stark distinctions of good-vs-evil are simple-minded. In reality, you get either get tolerable-vs-evil or evil-vs-evil (the latter being the theme of Farscape).
Nice try, but when we see the PD invoked in modern Trek, it's invoked for ideological reasons, out of a belief in non-inteference, NOT out of a fear of the logistical difficulties that interference would bring.
Besides, don't forget that cultures they help are also potential new allies, just like in the real world, when countries that get humanitarian aid from another country tend to view that country more favorably. Even from a realpolitik standpoint it makes sense.
Living in the bosom of the Federation is almost certainly a wonderful thing. We haven't seen much of what life is like for average Fed citizens, but they have abundant resources, time to follow whatever career or hobbies they choose, and a fairly significant military force out there patrolling the boundaries and keeping threats at bay.
But those aren't the stories we see. Instead, we see the military force that makes the utopia of the Federation possible, and how their actions aren't always as perfect as maybe they should be.
The whole theme of Star Trek was encapsulated in Sisko's statement, "The Federation is a paradise, and it's easy to be a saint in paradise." What he meant is, by joining Starfleet, he's chosen not to live in paradise, and therefore can't be expected to be a saint by those ingrateful fucks wallowing around in the cushy Federation, who have no fucking clue what it takes to keep their fat, lazy, cowardly asses safe.
Okay he didn't say all that, but I'm sure he was thinking it loudly enough for a Vulcan to pick up without a mind-meld.
It's spelled H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-C-Y.
Actually, it's spelled H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-S-Y.
Sorry to point that out--I just had to.
But that word does not follow the normal rules or patterns.
Agreed; had that been the point, I think we would've seen a whole different type of hand-wringing in that episode: we can't do enough, how can we decide who lives and who dies because of how we use our limited resources, etc. As the episode is written, it looks instead like callous indifference.
It's spelled H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-C-Y.
Actually, it's spelled H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-S-Y.
Sorry to point that out--I just had to.
Well in my defense, my first stab was H-Y-P-O-C-R-A-C-Y.
Serves me right to trust Google as a spell checker.
