Not only did gary 7 blow it, but Kirk knew it and so did the Audience.

[Timo]

Re: Not only did gary 7 blow it, but Kirk knew it and so did the Audie

Why bother trying to reconcile TOS and TNG with regard to discussed Earth history?

Basically because Star Trek is only worthwhile as a relatively well-constructed piece of fictional history. If it's only taken as a series of individual episodes, movies or other stories, it's mostly crap.

The 1990's Eugenics war was a ridiculous time placement.

Only if one wants to create a show that could take place in our history. But that's a pretty strange goal when one's show features pointy-eared aliens and FTL drives and additional World Wars. Sooner or later, the histories will diverge - why on Earth should one choose later over sooner?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Christopher]

Re: Not only did gary 7 blow it, but Kirk knew it and so did the Audie

The 1990's Eugenics war was a ridiculous time placement. I don't know what the writer was thinking, nor Gene Roddenberry for not saying to himself "huh... this is probably way too soon." Make it 2090 and it fits a little better.

I don't agree. People in the 1960s had the threat of nuclear war hanging over their head on a daily basis, with the Cuban Missile Crisis fresh in their minds. It was pretty much expected that cataclysmic global war would happen in their lifetime. It was actually pretty conservative to suggest that it wouldn't happen for another three decades.

True, it does seem odd to suggest that such superior humans could be bred and come to maturity by the 1990s, since that would mean they'd have to be conceived in the late '60s or early '70s. But that's because we're used to thinking of them in the terms that TWOK established, as being the result of genetic engineering, a science that's still in its infancy even today. But that's not what the original concept was. What "Space Seed" actually said was that the supermen were created "through selective breeding" -- the same technique used for centuries to breed improved strains of plants or livestock. The concept of eugenics, using that same technique on humans in order to improve the race, has been around since Francis Galton coined the word in 1883. Eugenics movements were quite common in the early decades of the 20th century and were a major factor behind Nazi ideology.

So when Carey Wilber and Gene L. Coon wrote "Space Seed," they were probably thinking of Khan and his followers not as the product of some futuristic superscience yet to be invented, but as an extrapolation from the real eugenics movements that had been around for decades. Maybe their thinking was that, even though eugenics was discredited after WWII, there was some group that kept on experimenting with it in secret after the war and eventually succeeded in achieving the goal of creating a superior breed of human. So in that context, it wasn't that implausible to propose it coming to fruition in the 1990s.

 

[Ssosmcin]

Re: Not only did gary 7 blow it, but Kirk knew it and so did the Audie

Why bother trying to reconcile TOS and TNG with regard to discussed Earth history?

Basically because Star Trek is only worthwhile as a relatively well-constructed piece of fictional history. If it's only taken as a series of individual episodes, movies or other stories, it's mostly crap.

I'm sorry but...what? Are you saying it's impossible for you to enjoy Trek as just a weekly TV show? I'm not following.

 

[Timo]

Re: Not only did gary 7 blow it, but Kirk knew it and so did the Audie

Enjoy, no. Stay excited enough to keep Star Trek as a hobby after something like three decades... Alas, yes. It's not that good in terms of drama, and often relies on subpar acting and visuals. But it is a remarkably well thought out fictional universe, at least in comparison with things like Galactica or Stargate or Star Wars; it's rich in detail exactly because it grew largely uncontrolled and uncoordinated, in the hands of various creators, yet it's not quite chaotic yet. I'm in solely for the exciting coherence, not for the humdrum stories themselves.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Gary7]

Re: Not only did gary 7 blow it, but Kirk knew it and so did the Audie

^ Well, you can be in it for the coherence and theorize imaginary ideas outside of what was presented to try stitching it all together with hours upon hours of debate, but when push comes to shove those flaws and gaps in the fictional history are still there. Create a hobby in it if you will, if it makes you happy. But, it is your own fiction. As a unified cohesive story across the 5 series, it is rather weak. I do not think that Star Trek is mostly crap on an episode basis, as you do. Sure there were some duds, but there were plenty of compelling enjoyable episodes. So, you clearly have a different priority than many others here.

it does seem odd to suggest that such superior humans could be bred and come to maturity by the 1990s, since that would mean they'd have to be conceived in the late '60s or early '70s.

That's exactly my point. Our technology had been going at a fast pace, but not quite that fast. The 1990's was too aggressive a date based on this. The same thing was true of "2001: A Space Odyssey". While 2001 seemed such a long way off in 1969, the stepping stones of technology to get to the moon were quite slow. We got to the moon by a very fragile form of technology. Even assuming we kept pushing our space program at a relatively fast clip, we wouldn't even begin to have a starter moon base until around 2020. I'm just saying there was a lot of fiction written in the 1960's that had far too aggressive dates for future technology. This is why I feel 2090 would have been much more realistic for the Eugenics wars. We've barely begun to deal with eradicating genetic flaws at this point, let alone introducing improvements... and it's 2011. Hindsight is 20/20, but I believe based on the rate of progress, more realistic dates could have been chosen even back then.

As for WWIII, yes... we were hanging in the balance for quite a while. It could have happened at any time, especially during the 1980's. And even accounting for that... the shambles of civilization regrouping into some semblance of productivity again, it would create a problem with fitting the Eugenics wars in the 1990's.

 

[Captain Robert April]

Re: Not only did gary 7 blow it, but Kirk knew it and so did the Audie

The Star Trek universe was established as NOT being our universe the second they established Clark Gable as a major star in 1930, when in reality, he was still a bit player at that time. This was compounded when they depicted orbital nuclear weapons platforms being launched into orbit in 1968.

So half the fun is trying to piece together that alternate history.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: Not only did gary 7 blow it, but Kirk knew it and so did the Audie

Until Greg's books, I ever really thought that the first generation of Supermen were born that way but more so altered/reborn like Captain America from that dinky movie in the theatres right now.

Which would explain the mental problems.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Not only did gary 7 blow it, but Kirk knew it and so did the Audie

it does seem odd to suggest that such superior humans could be bred and come to maturity by the 1990s, since that would mean they'd have to be conceived in the late '60s or early '70s.

That's exactly my point. Our technology had been going at a fast pace, but not quite that fast. The 1990's was too aggressive a date based on this.

But by skipping over the rest of my post, you've missed my point -- that that conclusion is based on the false premise that "Space Seed" intended Khan's supermen to be the result of some futuristic genetic engineering technology (as TWOK retconned it to be) instead of what the actual dialogue and terminology indicated, that they were meant to be an extrapolation from the selective-breeding-based eugenics experiments that had been underway in real life since the late 19th century. In reality those experiments went nowhere because they were rooted in false, racist assumptions about racial purity, and because the whole movement was discredited by the Nazis' atrocities. But I think "Space Seed" was conjecturing a scenario in which at least one of the eugenics programs survived well past the 1940s and actually worked as advertised. Which kind of makes sense in-story, because Khan's supermen were ethnically diverse rather than racially "pure," and anyone who knows anything about genetics knows that a diverse gene pool is better for breeding a robust, healthy population than a uniform one. (Although then Nicholas Meyer had to ruin that by casting a bunch of blond Aryan types as Khan's followers.)

If we assume a eugenics program starting around 1890, when such things began to get underway in real history, and if we assume they managed to breed a new generation about every 20 years, then the fifth generation would be born around 1970. Five generations to produce something that superhuman is rather few in realistic terms, but for the sake of fictional convenience, if we assume they managed to find the most physically and mentally "superior" members of the existing population and cross-bred them successfully at every turn, then it's not completely outside the realm of plausibility.

 

[Noname Given]

Re: Not only did gary 7 blow it, but Kirk knew it and so did the Audie

In Episode 226, Assignment Earth, Gary Seven was placed on earth to prevent the next war which would probably destroy the species and make the biosphere uninhabitable for centuries.

Actually, no, he wasn't. Gary 7 was a supervisor sent to Earth because two of the agents he supervised failed to sabotage the launch of an orbital nuclear weapons platform to the point where it could be manipulated by them to scare the planet outof usijng such devices.
^^^

This was all he was sent to do. Once he found the agents failed to complete the assignment because they died in a car accident; he took it opon himself to complete their mission; and probably would have done so quite easily if kirk and Spock hadn't been there.

 

[Warped9]

Re: Not only did gary 7 blow it, but Kirk knew it and so did the Audie

Quite a few of us don't need to reconcile TOS with whatever else followed to enjoy it. We can enjoy it just fine as it is and just as we have for many years before latter day Trek existed.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: Not only did gary 7 blow it, but Kirk knew it and so did the Audie

I saw this tv show recently, I can't for the life of me remember what it was, but there's this moderately attractive woman with a professional occupation and all the usual type A personality traits in tow, and she's set up on a blind date with a "regular" guy... And she's laying into him about what's wrong with him and his philosophies and his word view and it just goes on and on until it's pretty obvious that he's trying to escape.

Moments later while he's trying to climb out the bathroom window, the woman's friend asks her a simple question about her dating ethics "Do you want a fight, or do you want to have sex?"

Producing her pouty face, she replies "I want the fight, and I want the sex."

I really wish I could remember where that was from.

SEVEN: What else do your record tapes show?
KIRK: I'm afraid we can't reveal everything we know, Mister Seven.
SPOCK: Captain, we could say that Mister Seven and Miss Lincoln have some interesting experiences in store for them.
KIRK: Yes, I think we could say that. Two to beam up, Scotty.
SPOCK: Live long and prosper, Mister Seven.
KIRK: And the same to you, Miss Lincoln. Energise.

Gary either took it on himself to defend the Earth, or he was reassigned eventually by his off-world masters, or at least that's what Spock was hinting at.

America in the late sixties is like Pompei in 59 AD, or some poor bastard who uses up his life savings to buy a ticket on the Titanic, god forbid spending 10 years being educated and working your way up to being first mate on the Titanic.

I remember the Episode of Voyagers! (Not Voyager. Voyagers) where they Helped Spartacus escape from Roman Captivity, and Phineas Bog says "Wow, bats breath! I was here when it all started, when Spartacus freed the slaves and over threw the Roman Empire. Cool." To which his kid sidekick replies "Oh no, Spartacus doesn't free much anyone. he's going to be captured and crucified in a couple weeks, but as a martyr and an example, his sacrifice is going to inspire future generations to break free and rise up."

I would have loved to have seen Gary Seven at war with Henry Starling.

There was a comic recently where Gary fought Nixon.

We all think about going back in time to kill Hitler, but you can't (at least not until it's all over and he's in his bunker stacking cans of petrol.) but we are the sum of our parts, so who knows how many times Gary did save the day before everything frakked up and the world lit up on fire when Gary 7 was a hair too late just once.

It was his watch.

He was responsible.

(Remember what Janeway said about Caretakers?)

 

[blssdwlf]

Re: Not only did gary 7 blow it, but Kirk knew it and so did the Audie

Enjoy, no. Stay excited enough to keep Star Trek as a hobby after something like three decades... Alas, yes. It's not that good in terms of drama, and often relies on subpar acting and visuals. But it is a remarkably well thought out fictional universe, at least in comparison with things like Galactica or Stargate or Star Wars; it's rich in detail exactly because it grew largely uncontrolled and uncoordinated, in the hands of various creators, yet it's not quite chaotic yet. I'm in solely for the exciting coherence, not for the humdrum stories themselves.

Funny but Stargate always seemed to be far more coherent than the sprawl of the many Star Trek series (and SG embraced alternate universes and timelines.) Trying to mesh TOS events with TNG and later just points out the differences in alternate realities between the different productions

It actually plays out more coherently that First Contact pushed back the Eugenics Wars by 100 years via DS9

 

[Christopher]

Re: Not only did gary 7 blow it, but Kirk knew it and so did the Audie

Funny but Stargate always seemed to be far more coherent than the sprawl of the many Star Trek series (and SG embraced alternate universes and timelines.)

Not so strange, considering that Brad Wright was the executive producer of the entire franchise from start to finish, and Robert C. Cooper ran it along with him for most of that time. The people around them came and went, but overall there was a unified creative vision guiding the whole thing. With ST, though, there have been many different creative visions guiding it over the years. Also the SG-verse (aside from the original movie) was a continuous uninterrupted creation spanning 11 years, while ST has been much more spread out over time -- 1966-69, 1973-4, 1979, 1982, 1984, 1986-2005, 2009.

 

[Ssosmcin]

Re: Not only did gary 7 blow it, but Kirk knew it and so did the Audie

Enjoy, no. Stay excited enough to keep Star Trek as a hobby after something like three decades... Alas, yes. It's not that good in terms of drama, and often relies on subpar acting and visuals. But it is a remarkably well thought out fictional universe, at least in comparison with things like Galactica or Stargate or Star Wars; it's rich in detail exactly because it grew largely uncontrolled and uncoordinated, in the hands of various creators, yet it's not quite chaotic yet. I'm in solely for the exciting coherence, not for the humdrum stories themselves.

Timo Saloniemi

Interesting. I just watch an episode and either enjoy it or don't. Even after decades. I never really cared how well the Star Trek Universe holds up, as long as the episode was well done. Humdrum stories? I feel exactly the opposite, it was an exicting program, well filmed, acted, written, and scored for the most part. If it were humdrum, that would cause me to NOT watch.

Honestly, in your case, I have no idea why you bother. "The stories and acting suck, but damn is that a well constructed universe." That's like being friends with a guy you don't like because he has a nice house. Personally, I'd find something else to do. But that's just me.

 

[A.V.I.A.F.]

Re: Not only did gary 7 blow it, but Kirk knew it and so did the Audie

"The stories and acting suck, but damn is that a well constructed universe." That's like being friends with a guy you don't like because he has a nice house. Personally, I'd find something else to do. But that's just me.

It is a nice house, and the guy is alright....but he does have a few ugly lamps hanging around. Have I stretched this metaphor too far?

 

[Timo]

Re: Not only did gary 7 blow it, but Kirk knew it and so did the Audie

To me, it's more like a hippie collective, with 90% of the folks there utter assholes, but the 10% are the greatest guys and gals ever to have lived, and they throw great parties in a wonderful little den with all sorts of fancy substances available if you know where to look. Most people just look at the people, tho.

That's the Star Trek universe for me, that is, not the TrekBBS forum. Just to clarify.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[A.V.I.A.F.]

Re: Not only did gary 7 blow it, but Kirk knew it and so did the Audie

To me, it's more like a hippie collective, with 90% of the folks there utter assholes, but the 10% are the greatest guys and gals ever to have lived,

Timo Saloniemi

Would this guy be in the 10% or the 90%? I'm thinking the 90%.

So happy when he was moved to the graveyard shift and Uhura took his place on days.

 

[Stoek]

Re: Not only did gary 7 blow it, but Kirk knew it and so did the Audie

Personally I appreciate Star Trek for both its parts and for the whole.