Not only did gary 7 blow it, but Kirk knew it and so did the Audience.

[Guy Gardener]

In Episode 226, Assignment Earth, Gary Seven was placed on earth to prevent the next war which would probably destroy the species and make the biosphere uninhabitable for centuries.

In Episode 125, The Space Seed, we hear about Khan, the Eugenics war and an edge of World War III petering out just 24 years after Kirk and Spock leave Gary and Roberta to get on with it.

Furthermore, if space was littered with orbiting gun platforms what chance would the Supermen have stood to raise the world and forge their feudal empires just because they were a little stronger than your average pro wrestler?

Kirk was guaranteeing Khans essential and necessary rise to power which is good, because the prime Directive tells him too, and not telling Gary Seven that he is doomed, and his mission is doomed was a bit of a dick move but still what the Prime Directive should have insisted he do to maintain the integrity of the timeline, but that just means that Gary 7 & is another Edith keeler: Fates bitch beinding over for destiny.

Poor Gary.

 

[Timo]

Re: Not only did gary 7 blow it, but Kirk knew it and so did the Audie

In Episode 226, Assignment Earth, Gary Seven was placed on earth to prevent the next war which would probably destroy the species and make the biosphere uninhabitable for centuries.

Sounds like he succeeded, then.

Furthermore, if space was littered with orbiting gun platforms what chance would the Supermen have stood to raise the world and forge their feudal empires just because they were a little stronger than your average pro wrestler?

Remember that their famed side show was hostile takeover of advanced spacecraft. The more of those big toys up there, the more secure the rule of the supermen...

...Although we have every reason to think that Gary Seven managed to halt the deployment of orbital bombardment platforms for the 1960s and 1970s, and perhaps for the next century, too. In fact, Earth in all the following time periods seems to be really short on orbital fighting platforms!

Or then they are all sensibly painted black, so the camera won't see them.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: Not only did gary 7 blow it, but Kirk knew it and so did the Audie

In Episode 226, Assignment Earth, Gary Seven was placed on earth to prevent the next war which would probably destroy the species and make the biosphere uninhabitable for centuries.

Sounds like he succeeded, then.

Timo Saloniemi

Hmm?

You couldn't be suggesting that Gary 7 shaped and limited the apocalyptic 1990s and everything that followed through to 2053? That given every possible war that might have been fought, with every possible certainty that man was either doomed or not, that Garry didn't just steer into the skid, and take advantage of a bad situation but he forced the war of his choosing to come about to get that nasty agro shit out of man's system?

As Delenn once said "I had to chose between the deaths of millions or the deaths of billions."

Maybe Gary's sack is much larger than I thought it was?

PS

You don't think there's a few phaser batters on Spacedock? Or at least there was after Kirk stole the Enterprise? Then of course merely the tractor beams that thing uses to guide ships into port could probably kick cities around like they were built out of matchsticks.

 

[Gary7]

Re: Not only did gary 7 blow it, but Kirk knew it and so did the Audie

I resent the implications in this thread. Well, except for one of them.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Not only did gary 7 blow it, but Kirk knew it and so did the Audie

In Episode 226, Assignment Earth, Gary Seven was placed on earth to prevent the next war which would probably destroy the species and make the biosphere uninhabitable for centuries.

In Episode 125, The Space Seed, we hear about Khan, the Eugenics war and an edge of World War III petering out just 24 years after Kirk and Spock leave Gary and Roberta to get on with it.

But the species wasn't destroyed and the biosphere remained habitable. Therefore, Gary Seven succeeded. His mission was to ensure that humanity survived, and it certainly did that, even though it went through some tough times along the way.

Furthermore, if space was littered with orbiting gun platforms what chance would the Supermen have stood to raise the world and forge their feudal empires just because they were a little stronger than your average pro wrestler?

Well, first off, Khan purportedly had five times Kirk's strength, and Kirk was a pretty strong fellow. So you're underrating their strength. Second, they weren't just strong, they had superior intelligence and leadership abilities. Spock likened them to Napoleon, not Rowdy Roddy Piper. If there had been orbiting nuclear weapons (they were bombs, not guns), then the Augments would've taken control of those weapons and succeeded in conquering the world. So the Eugenics Wars would've been far worse if Gary Seven hadn't been around. (This is made particularly clear in the novel continuity, in which Gary plays a key role in bringing Khan and the others down.)

 

[Captain Robert April]

Re: Not only did gary 7 blow it, but Kirk knew it and so did the Audie

I've always been irritated by people who insist on doing the "Episode #whatever". It just adds to the dorkiness factor, and frankly, until the Shatner SNL sketch, I'd NEVER heard anyone do that. Of course, that's why they did it, it made the attendees sound like major league dorks.

Plus, considering how randomly the episodes have been aired over the decades, citing episode numbers is beyond pointless.

Okay, rant over.

 

[YARN]

Re: Not only did gary 7 blow it, but Kirk knew it and so did the Audie

I've always been irritated by people who insist on doing the "Episode #whatever". It just adds to the dorkiness factor, and frankly, until the Shatner SNL sketch, I'd NEVER heard anyone do that. Of course, that's why they did it, it made the attendees sound like major league dorks.

Plus, considering how randomly the episodes have been aired over the decades, citing episode numbers is beyond pointless.

Okay, rant over.

I too am appalled to see such geekery displayed in our hallowed forum. I just hope nobody read this thread and winds up thinking we're all nerds!

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: Not only did gary 7 blow it, but Kirk knew it and so did the Audie

Christopher, 600 million dead.

That's sad.

60 years of constant war.

That's really sad.

Gary, elephantiasis of the balls is nothing to be proud of, actually it' quite embarrassing nesting your love spuds in a wheel barrow to push in front of you, while about your daily chores.

Robby, in a recent episode of Doctor Who they met Nixon. By the end after good triumphed and evil was sent packing, Nixon asks the time travellers who know all about his future "Was I a good president?" and the Doctor replies "No one is going to forget you."

My head wanders about sometimes and I started sniggering, that Kirk with a straight face was able to say to Gary Seven something like "Good luck with the future, I'm sure you'll do peachy, yup blue skies ahead, nothing to be concerned about, you'll do fine... Tootles."

It's like a time traveller telling Nevil Chamberlain that he's a superstar before he goes off to assure peace in our time after his high tea with Hitler.

You don't see the funny or the tragedy?

 

[Green Shirt]

Re: Not only did gary 7 blow it, but Kirk knew it and so did the Audie

...Although we have every reason to think that Gary Seven managed to halt the deployment of orbital bombardment platforms for the 1960s and 1970s, and perhaps for the next century, too. In fact, Earth in all the following time periods seems to be really short on orbital fighting platforms!


Timo Saloniemi

They were there in 2001.

 

[RandyS]

Re: Not only did gary 7 blow it, but Kirk knew it and so did the Audie

I've always been irritated by people who insist on doing the "Episode #whatever". It just adds to the dorkiness factor, and frankly, until the Shatner SNL sketch, I'd NEVER heard anyone do that. Of course, that's why they did it, it made the attendees sound like major league dorks.

Plus, considering how randomly the episodes have been aired over the decades, citing episode numbers is beyond pointless.

Okay, rant over.

I too am appalled to see such geekery displayed in our hallowed forum. I just hope nobody read this thread and winds up thinking we're all nerds!

Wait...wait.....You mean we're not?

Well, what the hell did I sign up for then?

 

[scotpens]

Re: Not only did gary 7 blow it, but Kirk knew it and so did the Audie

I've always been irritated by people who insist on doing the “Episode #whatever”. It just adds to the dorkiness factor, and frankly, until the Shatner SNL sketch, I'd NEVER heard anyone do that. . . . Plus, considering how randomly the episodes have been aired over the decades, citing episode numbers is beyond pointless.

Well, if you want to do the episode-number thing, it can be by production order or network airdate order. But there was never an “episode 226” or an “episode 125.” Including the original pilot and counting “The Menagerie” Parts 1 and 2 separately, Trek TOS had only 79 episodes.

If you mean the 26th episode (in broadcast order) of Season 2, it should be written “2-26,” “2/26” or “2:26.”

...Although we have every reason to think that Gary Seven managed to halt the deployment of orbital bombardment platforms for the 1960s and 1970s, and perhaps for the next century, too. In fact, Earth in all the following time periods seems to be really short on orbital fighting platforms!

They were there in 2001.

But they were such a closely guarded secret, everyone thought they were just ordinary satellites.

 

[Timewalker]

Re: Not only did gary 7 blow it, but Kirk knew it and so did the Audie

Furthermore, if space was littered with orbiting gun platforms what chance would the Supermen have stood to raise the world and forge their feudal empires just because they were a little stronger than your average pro wrestler?

Well, first off, Khan purportedly had five times Kirk's strength, and Kirk was a pretty strong fellow. So you're underrating their strength. Second, they weren't just strong, they had superior intelligence and leadership abilities.

Y'know, all through the novels where Khan and his people were struggling to survive after their planetary neighbor exploded, I kept muttering, "Stillsuits, you moron. Invent stillsuits." (Dune reference for the miniscule number of people here who haven't read Frank Herbert's books).

And if Gary and Roberta hadn't rescued Khan and the other kids in the first place, there wouldn't ever have been any Eugenics Wars!


I have to admit, I'm having a lot of trouble reconciling the timeline given for WWIII, the Eugenics Wars (were they the same or separate wars? ), the "Post-Atomic Horror" of the 21st century, and the fact that we see Janeway and the other Voyager crew wandering around Earth in 1996 with nothing resembling WWIII going on...

Will the real timeline please raise its hand?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: Not only did gary 7 blow it, but Kirk knew it and so did the Audie

Berman and Braga don't give a toss about TOS. Everything was fine until they pulled 2063 out of their arses, or that they didn't object to 2063 sprouting from someone elses arse with out googling to see if there was already a timeline in place.

Spock said "Your last world war" in the space seed and that Khan had ruled a quarter of the planet from 1992 to 1996.

First Contact says that the movie was set 10 years after the east and west sued for peace in 2053.

It's like watching wrestling.

Greg Cox did a fine job of geling canon in with actual history and contemporary events with his Eugenics war trilogy, butt hen he actually has a division of editors working with him who scream "bullhit" now and then.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Not only did gary 7 blow it, but Kirk knew it and so did the Audie

Y'know, all through the novels where Khan and his people were struggling to survive after their planetary neighbor exploded, I kept muttering, "Stillsuits, you moron. Invent stillsuits."

How? It might require a rather more advanced technology than they were capable of mustering with the limited equipment they had.

I have to admit, I'm having a lot of trouble reconciling the timeline given for WWIII, the Eugenics Wars (were they the same or separate wars? ), the "Post-Atomic Horror" of the 21st century, and the fact that we see Janeway and the other Voyager crew wandering around Earth in 1996 with nothing resembling WWIII going on...

Will the real timeline please raise its hand?

Okay... in "Space Seed," the dialogue said that the Eugenics Wars (1993-6) were the last of our World Wars, thus implicitly that they were the same as the Third World War mentioned later in "Bread and Circuses." After all, at the time, the 1990s seemed like a distant future. But when Roddenberry made TNG in 1987, that was no longer the case, so he rewrote Trek history (something he was never hesitant to do) and asserted instead that WWIII had happened decades later, so that a "Post-Atomic Horror" existed by 2079. First Contact later established that the war had taken place around 2053, a decade before the events of the film. Today it is assumed that the Eugenics Wars and WWIII were two separate conflicts.

As for "Future's End," there's no problem there. The continental United States was virtually untouched by the First and Second World Wars, so there's no reason to assume it wouldn't have been equally untouched by the Eugenics Wars. After all, the Earth is a big place, and America is a much, much smaller part of it than we Americans tend to realize. True, one would think there'd be some indications of a war going on; for instance, if you were in LA in 1943, you wouldn't have seen any combat or bombed-out buildings, but you would've seen signs promoting war bonds and scrap drives, movies and cartoons containing wartime propaganda, shortages of supplies needed for the war effort, a dearth of young adult males in the population, etc. But not necessarily. We don't know that much about the Eugenics Wars, so we have no evidence that the United States was a participant in them at all. Or, given that the EW ended in 1996, maybe "Future's End" just took place a few months after they ended. (Or you can go with the version in the Eugenics Wars novels, that they were mostly underground conflicts that the general American public never even noticed. There's certainly plenty of real-world precedent for Americans ignoring major wars abroad, as any student of recent African history could tell you.)

 

[Timewalker]

Re: Not only did gary 7 blow it, but Kirk knew it and so did the Audie

Y'know, all through the novels where Khan and his people were struggling to survive after their planetary neighbor exploded, I kept muttering, "Stillsuits, you moron. Invent stillsuits."

How? It might require a rather more advanced technology than they were capable of mustering with the limited equipment they had.

Stillsuits, at least crude ones, would not have been beyond their capabilities if they had worked together and salvaged some of the stuff Kirk left them. Basically, a stillsuit is a non-electric pump-powered filter that separates pure water from waste materials. Even if they weren't able to make enough for everyone to wear (I concede that's pretty unlikely, given the resources they had), they should have been able to rig something that would have made more efficient use of what they did have. During the novel's scenes where everybody is sweating on the trip to find the ocean, I kept thinking, "what a waste of the body's moisture."

It just grated on me that Khan kept congratulating himself on how superior he was, yet he didn't have the smarts to at least try to come up with a way to conserve such basics.

I have to admit, I'm having a lot of trouble reconciling the timeline given for WWIII, the Eugenics Wars (were they the same or separate wars? ), the "Post-Atomic Horror" of the 21st century, and the fact that we see Janeway and the other Voyager crew wandering around Earth in 1996 with nothing resembling WWIII going on...

Will the real timeline please raise its hand?

Okay... in "Space Seed," the dialogue said that the Eugenics Wars (1993-6) were the last of our World Wars, thus implicitly that they were the same as the Third World War mentioned later in "Bread and Circuses." After all, at the time, the 1990s seemed like a distant future. But when Roddenberry made TNG in 1987, that was no longer the case, so he rewrote Trek history (something he was never hesitant to do) and asserted instead that WWIII had happened decades later, so that a "Post-Atomic Horror" existed by 2079. First Contact later established that the war had taken place around 2053, a decade before the events of the film. Today it is assumed that the Eugenics Wars and WWIII were two separate conflicts.

As for "Future's End," there's no problem there. The continental United States was virtually untouched by the First and Second World Wars, so there's no reason to assume it wouldn't have been equally untouched by the Eugenics Wars. After all, the Earth is a big place, and America is a much, much smaller part of it than we Americans tend to realize. True, one would think there'd be some indications of a war going on; for instance, if you were in LA in 1943, you wouldn't have seen any combat or bombed-out buildings, but you would've seen signs promoting war bonds and scrap drives, movies and cartoons containing wartime propaganda, shortages of supplies needed for the war effort, a dearth of young adult males in the population, etc. But not necessarily. We don't know that much about the Eugenics Wars, so we have no evidence that the United States was a participant in them at all. Or, given that the EW ended in 1996, maybe "Future's End" just took place a few months after they ended. (Or you can go with the version in the Eugenics Wars novels, that they were mostly underground conflicts that the general American public never even noticed. There's certainly plenty of real-world precedent for Americans ignoring major wars abroad, as any student of recent African history could tell you.)

So basically, one can pick one's favorite timeline, depending on whether one accepts First Contact's version of ST history...

 

[Captain Robert April]

Re: Not only did gary 7 blow it, but Kirk knew it and so did the Audie

It all works out if you figure that the Eugenics Wars were a precursor to WWIII, not actually a part of WWIII itself.

That way, all you have to deal with is Spock having a different opinion of how to categorize the Eugenics Wars, instead of having to rewrite several explicit references in the established timeline.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Not only did gary 7 blow it, but Kirk knew it and so did the Audie

So basically, one can pick one's favorite timeline, depending on whether one accepts First Contact's version of ST history...

Well, no, when Roddenberry established "The Post-Atomic Horror" in TNG, I'm sure he didn't intend it to have been around since the 1990s. He was postulating a new version of the timeline that superseded "Space Seed" (since by 1987 it was no longer feasible to claim that there was already a race of near-adult supermen on the verge of taking over much of the planet). What a lot of fans don't realize is that by that time in his life, he considered a lot of TOS to be apocryphal, even considering TNG to be something of a soft reboot of the universe, an opportunity to rewrite its rules and history and improve on the flaws he'd come to see in the original

So First Contact was just elaborating on the revised Trek-universe backstory that "Farpoint" established, adding a little more precision to the dates. As far as Roddenberry was concerned as of the TNG era, the Eugenics Wars had probably been completely written out of Trek continuity. It was later writers who had grown up as TOS fans, people like Ron Moore and Mike Sussman, who started working Eugenics Wars references into later Trek productions like DS9 and ENT (though Moore accidentally bumped up the timeframe of the Eugenics Wars to the 22nd century and ENT was deliberately ambiguous about when they occurred).

What semi-official sources like the Star Trek Chronology and Memory Alpha say is what I said before, that the Eugenics Wars happened in the 1990s and a separate WWIII happened in the 2050s.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: Not only did gary 7 blow it, but Kirk knew it and so did the Audie

Who has forgotten that the Korean War from M*A*S*H* is still going?

It's the same damn conflict.

Both sides have been taking a bit of a breather for the last 5 decades, but nothing was sorted and nothing was finished.

I remember back in 1996 when Janeway was walking about on Venice beach via some time travel doohicky and I said to myself that that does not look like America at war. they seem oblivous to the notion that 1/3s of the globe have been enslaved by Khan... What a pack of assholes!

However.

When America goes to war in the present, you know where, it doesn't change the homefront for the worse at all, no rationing, no martial law, in fact, since all the trouble makers have signed up or forced to sign up to avoid jail... An 0verseas war just makes the streets of America so much safer that President Obama should find more little countries that need a little order.

 

[Timo]

Re: Not only did gary 7 blow it, but Kirk knew it and so did the Audie

It all works out if you figure that the Eugenics Wars were a precursor to WWIII, not actually a part of WWIII itself.

It's pretty easy to do, really, because Spock doesn't actually equate the Eugenics Wars with WWIII. He merely says that the 1990s were (part of) the era of the last world war. All we really need to do is define "era of WWIII", which apparently is not the same thing as "WWIII".

This "era" could be something as broad as "the 20th century" or at least "the late 20th and early 21st century". After all, eras tend to be long spans of time... And this particular era could encompass not only WWIII but also the Eugenics Wars, the Space Age and the Generation X, among other phenomena.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Gary7]

Re: Not only did gary 7 blow it, but Kirk knew it and so did the Audie

Why bother trying to reconcile TOS and TNG with regard to discussed Earth history? There are plenty of gaps and inconsistencies between the series. Writers for TNG weren't about to follow TOS as strict canon. The 1990's Eugenics war was a ridiculous time placement. I don't know what the writer was thinking, nor Gene Roddenberry for not saying to himself "huh... this is probably way too soon." Make it 2090 and it fits a little better.

And they're not going to tell Gary Seven about WWIII. Supposedly whatever interventions Gary Seven and his team have done, it leads up to the Federation as we know it. Disturbing the timeline in the slightest way could alter it significantly. Like McCoy saving Edith Keeler.