Kahless

[jg73340]

Hello Everybody:

Let me begin by saying that I am a long time fan of the series. I want to say this right now because some people might wrongly assume from what I write that I am some fanatical Christian who has never seen a single episode of Trek.

Now, because I am a Christian, one thing that has annoyed me about Trek in general is its unfair (and often inaccurate) depiction of God and/or religion. One of the episodes in TNG that particularly annoyed me was the "Kahless" episode.

Kahless is supposed to be a representation of Jesus. There are some who might dispute that, but to me it was obvious. I am not the kind of person who gets angry every time Jesus is mentioned or represented in a negative way. If I was, I wouldn't watch Star Trek. But this episode was just plain annoying.

What is annoying about Kahless is that he is such a stereotypical Klingon. He is violent, he enjoys fighting, he is absurdly over-confident (to the point of being stupid) and he is obsessed with honor. To me he represents the opposite of everything Jesus stood for.

What is even more annoying is that Kahless, in the TNG episode I am talking about, says a bunch of really dumb parables with dumb messages. Again, the writers were trying to compare Kahless to Jesus. But the parables Kahless says are so stupid that the comparison is just annoying to anyone who’s read the Bible and knows what Jesus actually said.

Now here is the most annoying thing:

In the OS, Kahless is described as the Klingon who "set the pattern for his planet’s history of violence and tyranny." (The Savage Curtain - Season 3). Not a very flattering description. In that OS episode, Kahless is clearly shown as an evil villain. The writers of the TNG episode must have known this because that is where they got the name from. If that's the case, why did the TNG people use Kahless to represent Jesus?

I don't mind criticism or debate about Jesus, but please do not use some idiotic Klingon to represent him or his teachings.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

I'm also a Christian (for what that's worth). To me, Kahless is the KLINGON analogue of Jesus, not the direct comparison. He represents to the Klingons what Jesus represents to us, but they are not even close to being the same (despite there being a "faith in the man vs. the teachings" theme to the episode I appreciated).

To me, he's just like Prometheus, Moses, or any other important religious/mythological figure to a religion not Christian.

I mean, do Klingons follow Christian values? Not exactly. Which is why their religious reader really can't be compared directly to Jesus.

 

[Warped9]

You also have to remember that the TOS depiction of Kahless was what the Excalibians interpreted from Kirk's impression of who and what Kahless was. It's reasonable to assume that Kirk may not have had the most flattering image of Kahless in his mind.

 

[Mojochi]

I disagree. I don't see the episode (Which is not their best, really) as being an attempt to depict Jesus. I see it, as per the usual, an attempt to make a general metaphor about messiahs within faith based lore, of which Kahless is one, & that is pretty much the only way that his depiction can be related to Jesus, who was one

I will point out however, that the story itself, specifically the cloning of Kahless from DNA remnants on his sword, does draw on some of the conjecture of the times (the 80's) About Jesus & if in deed the Shroud of Turin belonged to him, & could retain his DNA

That really is the only similarity to the episode & anything to do with Jesus, imo, besides the episode being about faith/religion in general

 

[Balrog]

It's a literary device. The writers wanted to create a messianic character for the Klingon people. They were not making any allusions to Christ the person. If anything, they were purposefully making Kahless the antithesis of Christ for contrast.

The heart of the episode is a "What if". What if DNA could be lifted from the Shroud of Turin, let's say. What if a clone could be created. What kind of implications of such an event would happen to our society? It's a much bigger and more general topic that writers were attempting to tackle than the rather simplistic notion of Kahless being Christ.

Edit to add: Mojochi, we reach!

 

[Hober Mallow]

Kahless is supposed to be a representation of Jesus. There are some who might dispute that, but to me it was obvious.

And to a Muslim, it would be just as obvious that Kahless is Mohammed. To a Buddhist, the Buddha. To the Hebrew, Moses. To the ancient Greeks, Prometheus. To the Babylonians, Gilgamesh.

 

[Deckerd]

Kahless is supposed to be a representation of Jesus. There are some who might dispute that, but to me it was obvious. I am not the kind of person who gets angry every time Jesus is mentioned or represented in a negative way. If I was, I wouldn't watch Star Trek. But this episode was just plain annoying.

How do you feel about Valen and the fact that he was the founder of Minbari religion, philosophy and politics and yet he was also a human in (in-universe) present day Bablylon 5? One of his first actions as the saviour of Minbar was to go to war against the evil dark forces of the Shadows. The parallels with Jesus are striking. The Minbari worship his memory as the best model for their continuing existence and yet he also walked in their midst in modern times.

Then we have Kara Thrace, killed in suspicious circumstances which may or may not have been the cylons. Suddenly she is risen again and leads the human race to salvation. Then as mysteriously as she appeared she disappears again. This is a Christ-like figure if ever I saw one. And yet Kara's character was anything but perfect. She was violent, weak and drank heavily. Her only saving graces were fierce loyalty and being a superb fighter pilot. Could it be that Jesus wasn't the perfect man before he reached maturity?

 

[Green Shirt]

Its just a TV show.

 

[SonicRanger]

Now, because I am a Christian, one thing that has annoyed me about Trek in general is its unfair (and often inaccurate) depiction of God and/or religion.

What is an "inaccurate depiction of God"? And your religious beliefs no doubt shape what you consider a proper depiction of religion. Others might differ in those views.

Kahless is supposed to be a representation of Jesus. There are some who might dispute that, but to me it was obvious.

This has more to do with your own religious beliefs than the episode itself.

What is even more annoying is that Kahless, in the TNG episode I am talking about, says a bunch of really dumb parables with dumb messages. Again, the writers were trying to compare Kahless to Jesus. But the parables Kahless says are so stupid that the comparison is just annoying to anyone who’s read the Bible and knows what Jesus actually said.

"The Kingdom of Heaven is like a grain of mustard seed."

Now here is the most annoying thing:

In the OS, Kahless is described as the Klingon who "set the pattern for his planet’s history of violence and tyranny." (The Savage Curtain - Season 3). Not a very flattering description. In that OS episode, Kahless is clearly shown as an evil villain. The writers of the TNG episode must have known this because that is where they got the name from. If that's the case, why did the TNG people use Kahless to represent Jesus?

Imagine how the Klingons view a human religious figure in whose name the Crusades, the Inquisitions, and countless other violent acts have been carried out.

 

[Trek Survivor]

I don't think Kahless was supposed to be a representation of any particular religious figure, more a mixture of elements from a lot of them.

And of course Kahless was acting like a Klingon - he is a Klingon!

WWKD?

 

[Locutus of Bored]

All this talk is heresy against doctrine. Everyone knows The Sisko is Star Trek Jesus.

 

[Doug Otte]

Interesting discussion, but why is this in the TNG forum?

 

[SonicRanger]

Probably because it directly involves the TNG episode "Kahless."

 

[jgalley]

nit picking.

it's fiction.

Kahless is the Klingon version of jesus....OUR societ views "good" "peace" etc...Klingons revere battle. So considering that is it really odd that the "Klingon Jesus" is a warrior?

no offense to your or your beliefs but this is a stupid nitpick...it's perfectly fitting for the fiction and race.

 

[pimp]

I am An Atheist and I agree it is only a TV show do not take it to heart or literally

 

[indolover]

It is a loose analogy. I thought that was evident.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

All this talk is heresy against doctrine. Everyone knows The Sisko is Star Trek Jesus.

— Complete with Grail-Shaped Beacons.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Then we have Kara Thrace, killed in suspicious circumstances which may or may not have been the cylons. Suddenly she is risen again and leads the human race to salvation. Then as mysteriously as she appeared she disappears again. This is a Christ-like figure if ever I saw one. And yet Kara's character was anything but perfect. She was violent, weak and drank heavily. Her only saving graces were fierce loyalty and being a superb fighter pilot. Could it be that Jesus wasn't the perfect man before he reached maturity?

Well, it is pretty well established in the Gospels that he was quite fond of wine, and a hell of a donkey rider!

 

[MikeS]

Doesn't the very word "messiah" mean warrior? And didn't the Jews think he was going to be sent to kick some Roman arse? In which case, Kahless is a better portrayal of a "messianic figure" than the New Testament character.

 

[Deckerd]

I think the OP has given up due to the weight of our irrefutable logic.