Babylon 5 - Question of Rank

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

Reverend,

To go with your alternate rank schemes, might I suggest you take a crack at the keyhole pyramid logo — designed by Peter Ledger — that JMS had originally planned to be part of the uniforms.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

More to the point though it's a joint service that covers space, air and ground operations, so is it any wonder that there are more ranks than a single Navy, Army or Airforce?

Well, EarthForce already has multiple branches anyway (blue 'Navy', brown Marines, gray Security), so I guess I don't see why they didn't make the bluesuits a *real* Navy. Either that, or dispense with the naval ranks altogether.

I am assuming that you think EF is organized like this:

Ensign
2nd Lt.
1st Lt.
Lt. Cmdr.
Commander
Captain
Major
Lt. Colonel
Colonel
General (1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 stars)
Admiral (1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 stars)

Guess that settles the question of why we never saw Admirals: Officers may not live long enough to make it that far up the rank scheme!

(Lochley seems to have managed, though: In the space of 10 years, she goes from Captain to Colonel. In your scheme, that's 3 promotions!)

 

[Reverend]

Hey, it's not *my* scheme, it's John Copeland's. Go argue with him! Also, we did kinda-almost see an Admiral. Try to keep up!

As for speedy promotions, didn't Gideon go from Ensign to Captain in 10 years? Even in *your* anachronistic wet navy scheme that's 5 promotions!!!
Oh and for the record, Lochley would have gotten said promotions in 5 years, not 10 as she's still a Captain in 2267.



...so nobody has a clue about the Minbari clans either? And you lot call yourself fans!

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Hey, it's not *my* scheme, it's John Copeland's. Go argue with him!

Also gotta ask him about Major Atumbe in "Eyes," apparently. If Atumbe is a Major, and if that rank scheme applies, he should outrank everyone on the station - including Sinclair. So why doesn't he? (In the chain of command as actually given in the episode, Atumbe is below Ivanova)

 

[Reverend]

^Let me know how that turns out for you.

 

[Checkers52]

And Ryan was evidentially the XO of a full General and one of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. You really think someone just one paygrade up from a mere Lieutenant would get that job? I once worked as a civilian clerk in the RHQ of a mere artillery regiment and I can tell you that the CO, who was a Lieutenant Colonel had two adjutants, one a Captain, one a Major and another Major as his 2IC.

Do you really think a General's flagship would be left under the command of anyone BELOW the rank of Captain in the General's absence? Of course not, that's insane.

From what was mentione of Major Ryan, this makes much more sense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aide-de-camp#United_States

There may have been other generals, captains, or other officers that worked with Hague or that served on the Alexander, but Major Ryan was more than likely Hague's aide-de-camp. I would guess that when they broke away from Earth, since Major Ryan was clearly a fairly high ranking officer(however high a major is it is clearly a rank you have to be experienced to get) and as he was Hague's aide-de-camp, I would think those two facts would give him authority in and of itself.

As for him wearing a navy blue uniform, this is actually quite common in the US Marine Corps. The US Marines do not have doctors, nurses, or chaplains. All medical and religious support staff for the US Marine Corps are commissioned officers or enlisted personnel from the US Navy. That's why a lot of times you hear about US Navy Hospital Corpsmen attached to Marine rifle squads or other units for medical support. Even though they are US Navy personnel, as they are attached to Marine units, they often wear US Navy uniforms, though they keep US Navy insignia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unifor...aval_personnel_attached_to_Marine_Corps_units

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Personnel_man_the_rails_on_USS_Blue_Ridge_(LCC_19).jpg

Marine uniform, but still US Navy rank insignia and titles. The British Royal Navy and British Marines do this as well from my understanding, so this isn't something that only the US does.

Also, this might be revelant for some ranks.

http://www.slasims.com/resources/rankconversion.html

http://www.b5tech.com/oldb5tech/misctech/earthforcerank/earthforcerank.html

For the navy named ranks, I know both sites are correct for Junior Grade Lieutenant through Captain, as well as Major.

Also, if your trying to figure out where B5 and Earth security ties in, I think it would be a good idea to view Security as similar to the US Coast Guard.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Coast_Guard

While the US Coast Guard is a uniformed service and uses the same ranks as the Navy, unlike the four main branches of the service, the Coast Guard is not considered an official part of the military. Because of this, in peace time, they have law enforcement and arrest powers for arresting drug dealers, people that break environmental or other federal laws, and can arrest people or carry a firearm when off duty, something that the US Navy, Marines, Army, and Coast Guard are not allowed to due because of federal law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Coast_Guard#Authority_as_a_law_enforcement_agency

This would allow them to use army/marine ranks and titles as well as uniforms, but would explain why they are enforcing the law on a civilian populated space station.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Wasn't there one episode with an EarthForce Marine who had the rank of Commander? I just remembered that.

 

[Checkers52]

Wasn't there one episode with an EarthForce Marine who had the rank of Commander? I just remembered that.

Not to my knowledge. We've only seen officers wearing the brown collored uniforms on three people:

1) The Major who was onboard Babylon 4.

2) Colonel Ari Ben Zayne from season 1.

3) General Richard Franklin from season 2.

The only other officer wearing the Marine brown uniform that I've ever seen in the show was some extra in the episode GROPOS who was seen standing next to General Franklin in a couple of scenes. This person never said anything and was never addressed by rank.

I actually haven't seen all of the Crusade episodes, so I'm now aware if any characters appeared wearing the brown uniforms or not, but I've never heard of any specific characters or mention of any extras.

Also, I found a youtube video of the Colonel from season 1. You get a decent look at the insignia on his uniform.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3xlaKol2tM

The insignia on his uniform is consistent with the colonel insigina on this site:

http://www.slasims.com/resources/rankconversion.html

From the episode, Colonel Zayn seems to be someone whose career focused mainly on ground combat related missions.

 

[Checkers52]

http://www.st-spike.org/pages/nontrek/babylon5/ranks.htm

Found this. It's old but looks somewhat accurate for the navy ranks of Junior Grade Lieutenant through Captain.

The Colonel rank makes matches Colonel Ari Ben Zayn's insignia from season 1 of Babylon 5.

Concerning several of the generals, I don't know if it concidered canon or not, but has anyone got a copy of the "In The Beginning" novel. I know from the couple of times I've looked flipped through the pages at bookstores that it has quite a bit of information that wasn't in the actual tv movie.

Something else to consider, given the difference of the rank insignia between Zayn and Lockley in regards to the colonel rank, should Lockley's rank be considered a retcon or of secondary importance? Given the timing between her appearance in the DVD movie and the original series, I would have to question how accurate some things where in that movie, or whether any notes or references used in the tv show where used or lost by the time the DVD movie was filmed.

 

[Sindatur]

http://www.st-spike.org/pages/nontrek/babylon5/ranks.htm

Found this. It's old but looks somewhat accurate for the navy ranks of Junior Grade Lieutenant through Captain.

The Colonel rank makes matches Colonel Ari Ben Zayn's insignia from season 1 of Babylon 5.

Concerning several of the generals, I don't know if it concidered canon or not, but has anyone got a copy of the "In The Beginning" novel. I know from the couple of times I've looked flipped through the pages at bookstores that it has quite a bit of information that wasn't in the actual tv movie.

Something else to consider, given the difference of the rank insignia between Zayn and Lockley in regards to the colonel rank, should Lockley's rank be considered a retcon or of secondary importance? Given the timing between her appearance in the DVD movie and the original series, I would have to question how accurate some things where in that movie, or whether any notes or references used in the tv show where used or lost by the time the DVD movie was filmed.

When was Lockley a Colonel, I don't remember that at all. Are there even any Colonels in Lockley's branch of the Service? I only ever recall her being a Captain?

 

[Harvey]

Wasn't she a Colonel in The Lost Tales, or am I remembering incorrectly?

 

[PsychoPere]

^ Lochley was indeed a Colonel in The Lost Tales.

 

[Sindatur]

^ Lochley was indeed a Colonel in The Lost Tales.

HMMMM...OK, didn't remember that at all, didn't think there was a Colonel rank in her branch, but, then the ranks in B5 were one of those things that didn't seem consistent, so, I never paid as much attention as maybe I should have.

Thanks guys.

 

[David cgc]

What he was referring to specifically was that on Ben Zayn's uniform, the bottom of the bird insignia was pointed toward the wearer's front, while on Lochley's uniform, the bottom of the bird was pointed out to the side, giving it the appearance of sitting on the vertical bar.

 

[Reverend]

The only other officer wearing the Marine brown uniform that I've ever seen in the show was some extra in the episode GROPOS who was seen standing next to General Franklin in a couple of scenes. This person never said anything and was never addressed by rank.

Yeah, I think his name was Frank, but his rank wasn't specified in dialogue. I'm not certain, but I think could could glimpse his insignia in a handful of shots. If memory serves it was a single bar, but I don't recall if it was silver or bronze so he could be anything from a Lt/2nd Lt or a Lt Cmdr. Given that he appeared to be the General's aide any of those would be possible,

 

[shivkala]

^ Lochley was indeed a Colonel in The Lost Tales.

HMMMM...OK, didn't remember that at all, didn't think there was a Colonel rank in her branch, but, then the ranks in B5 were one of those things that didn't seem consistent, so, I never paid as much attention as maybe I should have.

Thanks guys.

Tracy Scoggins joked(?) in the behind the scenes material that she agreed to come back if they made her a Col. She seemed quite proud of the promotion.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

We've only seen officers wearing the brown collored uniforms on three people:

1) The Major who was onboard Babylon 4.

2) Colonel Ari Ben Zayne from season 1.

3) General Richard Franklin from season 2.

Ben Zayn wore brown? Hmm. For some reason I thought his uni was dark gray. Which would have made it an all new branch.

 

[Reverend]

^I think all dark greys were Earthforce security like Garibaldi, Kemmer etc. The B5 security uniforms were a lighter grey as they were essentially civilian (or at least non-military) employees. I think there was also a really dark, almost charcoal grey uniform (complete with a Browne belt) but I think they only showed up during the memorial service in 'Ceremonies of Light and Dark'. No idea what branch that might be. Pilot dress uniform perhaps? Or maybe just a variant of the standard uniform for the colour guard?

Actually, now that I think about it, weren't the dress uniforms from 'The Gathering' dark grey too? Not that it has any bearing given that most of the costuming from that movie was later retconned.

 

[Checkers52]

^I think all dark greys were Earthforce security like Garibaldi, Kemmer etc. The B5 security uniforms were a lighter grey as they were essentially civilian (or at least non-military) employees. I think there was also a really dark, almost charcoal grey uniform (complete with a Browne belt) but I think they only showed up during the memorial service in 'Ceremonies of Light and Dark'. No idea what branch that might be. Pilot dress uniform perhaps? Or maybe just a variant of the standard uniform for the colour guard?

Actually, now that I think about it, weren't the dress uniforms from 'The Gathering' dark grey too? Not that it has any bearing given that most of the costuming from that movie was later retconned.

The B5 security, all wore grey uniforms, and the only officer in Earth Force Security we ever saw was Garibaldi's niece, Major Kemmer.

The more I think about it, to me, I think Earth Force Security, ie Garibaldi, and Kemmer among others, might be the Earth equivalent of the US Coast Guard.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Coast_Guard

The Coast Guard has a military structure modeled after the US Navy, but outside of war time or a combat zone, the Coast Guard actually isn't controlled by the Department of Defense, instead they operate under the Department of Homeland Security. Since they operate seperately under a civilian agency, they can carry out law enforcement on a daily basis. The Navy, Marines, Army and Air Force can not enforce laws outside of their bases unless martial law is declared or some other disaster where the military takes control.

If Earth Force Security has a setup similar to the US Coast Guard, only using marine or army ranks instead of navy ranks, this could explain why Garibaldi had some military power or authority on the station, but could still enforce the law and arrest people.

 

[Reverend]

^Garibaldi had authority because he was a chief warrant officer in EF propper. He wasn't a civilian employee like his staff and he wore the same uniform as Kemmer and her aide.
The telling is in the insignia as well as the uniform. EF personnel wear the EA insignia over a statbar on the breast with the service branch patch on the left shoulder. The security peace officers just had the security logo on the breast. Same deal with the dock workers and maintenance techs.