Is Data's head still under San Francisco?

[Set Harth]

Nero has travelled back to a point in time before Data travelled back and changed the future so that Data will no longer go back therefore Data in the past is affected in the same way as Data in the future.

No, there is no assumption that Nero's branching time travel works that way. It does not change the past of 2233.

People view the branching event as 'creating' the new timeline from nothing. It doesn't. We are looking at two parallel timelines that APPEAR identical to the viewers and characters 'until' Nero travels back.

It is the explicit intent of the writers that the red matter black hole time travel creates the new timeline.

I apologise if I was a bit fuzzy in my use of language. I meant that I wasn't able to find any mention of scienitific support for Data Prime's head (i.e. the theory that would enable it to appear in the altered timeline), albeit in a very brief search.

That still doesn't make much sense. Scientific support as it stands these days is behind MWI, and makes no allowances for things like erased memories or disappearing heads.

The only way Data's head can exist in the past is if NuData in the future goes back.

Whatever "NuData" does or does not do is irrelevant. Data's head already exists in the past of the Prime timeline when the new timeline is created.

If Data Prime's head is there, his memories will automatically change as the branching event occurs to reflect his future and this could include vanishing completely like Picard Time Squared I suppose.

Memories are a different issue from whether or not the head is there, and there is no basis for STXI's version of time travel having any effect on memories at all. The branching time travel also does not cause the vanishing of heads or anything else. You're trying to apply traditional time travel tropes in a situation to which they are not applicable.

 

[Pauln6]

I was only referring to the 'illusion' of memories changing from the viewers' piint of view. I think I am advocating something like Sliders. The problem for me is that we know that energy cannot be created or destroyed. If these time travel events are 'creating' an entire universe without overwriting the original where the hell does all the energy come from to achieve that? The Sliders version where they already exist makes sense. Writers' intent or not, the other version doesn't make sense to me because of that, among other things (like multiple Kirks going to the same point in time for the same whales).

 

[Set Harth]

I was only referring to the 'illusion' of memories changing from the viewers' piint of view.

No, you were referring to his actual memories changing, which is not an illusion.

 

[Pauln6]

I was only referring to the 'illusion' of memories changing from the viewers' piint of view.

No, you were referring to his actual memories changing, which is not an illusion.

That may how it read but it's not what I meant. When we the viewer watch these shows, it APPEARS that the non-time travelling characters' memories are changing before our eyes. In fact we are just jumping tracks with the time traveller and the characters we see now have the memories that they have always had. Sorry for any confusion!

 

[DonIago]

^I think I agree with what you're saying, especially in that time-travelling is not a form of alternate timeline creation, just jumping tracks.

 

[Set Harth]

That may how it read but it's not what I meant. When we the viewer watch these shows, it APPEARS that the non-time travelling characters' memories are changing before our eyes. In fact we are just jumping tracks with the time traveller and the characters we see now have the memories that they have always had. Sorry for any confusion!

What you said was:

If Data Prime's head is there, his memories will automatically change as the branching event occurs to reflect his future and this could include vanishing completely like Picard Time Squared I suppose.

Data's memories are from the TNG era of the Prime timeline as seen in the previous episodes. Those were the memories he always had, and you said that they would automatically change to something else. That is not an "illusion" or an "appearance", that is a change - to the memories of a completely different Data, not the memories of the Data which the head came from.

 

[Pauln6]

Data's memories are from the TNG era of the Prime timeline as seen in the previous episodes. Those were the memories he always had, and you said that they would automatically change to something else. That is not an "illusion" or an "appearance", that is a change - to the memories of a completely different Data, not the memories of the Data which the head came from.

Sorry, I can't say any more than that may be what I said but it wasn't what I meant! Maybe my explanation of what I meant wasn't clear enough again! Sorry! I was trying to say what the viewer sees happening on screen in established Trek i.e. what I think would happen if you apply the writers' version of many worlds. The viewer sees that the time traveller actively 'changing' time (or passive people that are shielded somehow like the Guardian) 'retains' their memories because they are from a different time track that has not changed. I suppose in City on the Edge of Forever, there could have been another version of Kirk running around (if he was ever born). Everybody else's memories 'appear' to change automatically and this would include Data.

The reason it happens is because the time travelling characters have jumped tracks and the Nu Data has all the experiences from this timeline that the traveller is now (and always has been) a part of. Thus if Data goes back at all, it will be this version of Data.

You can't create a branch from nothing - an awful lot of energy is needed to create an entire universe! Plus if time happens everywhere all at once, past Data can only be the product of the timeline in which he currently inhabits UNLESS he has jumped tracks. We know he didn't jump tracks because we saw Data Prime retrieve his head with his memories intact in Time's Arrow and there was only one head in that cave. If NuData were to retrieve that head instead, it would never have been present in the Prime timeline for Data Prime to rediscover.

EDIT: We don't know that Data didn't jump tracks actually - we only know that the head he retrieved appeared to have the same memories. If he did jump tracks it is possible that the head from the prime universe is waiting in this universe! That only just occurred to me...

To recap:

The version allegedly proposed by the writers requires energy to 'create' an entire universe from nothing. Since energy cannot be created or destroyed, we have to ask what that energy was before it became a universe? My understanding is that it took a big bang to create the universe. Do the writers think that there is a lot of spare energy in some dimension waiting like toner in a cosmic photocopying machine and that a big bang is not required to create it? This version only works 'realistically' if a wizard did it, a Q did it, or if the new timeline overwrites the old. In the latter circumstances Data Prime's memories would be overwritten.

Pre-existing timelines and jumping tracks allows the version we see in the movie because the timelines were all created at the birth of the universe but past Data would be the appropriate Data for his own timeline. The concept of a shared past is still valid because some timelines run parallel but they are not sharing the same quantum timeline.

I can't dictate writer intent but I can say that their version looks pretty dumb to me. Having said that, there were quite a few things in the movie that looked pretty dumb to me.

Once again, I apologise if I wasn't clear.

 

[UFO]

You can't create a branch from nothing - an awful lot of energy is needed to create an entire universe!

Actually that worried me too but apparently the scientists who came up with this idea are aware of that issue and I believe they think they have an answer. In short, creating universes on the fly is a legitimate scientific idea, not just something the STXI writers dreamed up. Unlike the super fast super powerful super nova.

If NuData were to retrieve that head instead, it would never have been present in the Prime timeline for Data Prime to rediscover.

Except a new universe complete with head would be created by NuData if he did that, leaving the "original" for Prime Data.

 

[BillJ]

*Just whistles and quietly walks away...

 

[Set Harth]

The version allegedly proposed by the writers requires energy to 'create' an entire universe from nothing. Since energy cannot be created or destroyed, we have to ask what that energy was before it became a universe?

The same logic should apply to disappearing heads.

Everybody else's memories 'appear' to change automatically and this would include Data.

If Data's memories changed automatically for some reason, that would not be an "appearance" or an "illusion". That would be an actual change.

EDIT: We don't know that Data didn't jump tracks actually - we only know that the head he retrieved appeared to have the same memories. If he did jump tracks it is possible that the head from the prime universe is waiting in this universe! That only just occurred to me...

Because of the situation with Picard's message, it seems evident that the time travel in Time's Arrow is single-timeline in nature.

The reason it happens is because the time travelling characters have jumped tracks and the Nu Data has all the experiences from this timeline that the traveller is now (and always has been) a part of. Thus if Data goes back at all, it will be this version of Data.

Whatever happens with hypothetical "NuData" is irrelevant to the fact that the Prime timeline has Data Prime's head there, and thus the branching timeline also has Data Prime's head there.

 

[DonIago]

Of course, if you don't feel that "branching" is the technique that actually occurred...

Just curious, why do you assume that at the end of Time's Arrow any of Our Heroes are in the same timeline they started out in? You say it "seems evident", but it doesn't seem evident to me, it seems like more of an assumption. Understanding how you make these determinations would make it easier to discuss the matter with you.

 

[BillJ]

Of course, if you don't feel that "branching" is the technique that actually occurred...

Just curious, why do you assume that at the end of Time's Arrow any of Our Heroes are in the same timeline they started out in? You say it "seems evident", but it doesn't seem evident to me, it seems like more of an assumption. Understanding how you make these determinations would make it easier to discuss the matter with you.

For me (can't speak for anyone else), this exchange seems to point to a single timeline:

GUINAN: You just do. Do you remember the first time we met?
PICARD: Of course.
GUINAN: Don't be so sure. I just mean, if you don't go on this mission, (the aperitif evaporates) we'll never meet.

From Guinan's point-of-view, her relationship with Picard is one long sequence of events beginning in 1893. Plus the crew is using the same device to exit and enter the 19th century and returning to the correct spot in the 24th century each time.

 

[DonIago]

Guinan would be a bit of a special case though, given that it's already been established that she has knowledge of multiple timelines.

Anyway, by the time Guinan says that to Picard we're already no longer seeing the original timeline. We can't be seeing the original timeline because Data's head has already been found, which means he must have already traveled back in time.

 

[BillJ]

Guinan would be a bit of a special case though, given that it's already been established that she has knowledge of multiple timelines.

Anyway, by the time Guinan says that to Picard we're already no longer seeing the original timeline. We can't be seeing the original timeline because Data's head has already been found, which means he must have already traveled back in time.

Chicken and the egg or egg and the chicken? It really comes down to whatever makes you sleep better at night.

 

[DonIago]

I'd still like to know how Picard and Guinan met originally and how the Time's Arrow mission went the first time around.

 

[BillJ]

I'd still like to know how Picard and Guinan met originally and how the Time's Arrow mission went the first time around.

From Picard's perspective it obviously had to happen sometime in the 23rd century, probably while in command of the Stargazer. From Guinan's perspective it was 1893.

Perhaps each individual exists in their own timeline and effect the universe at large when crossing over with other individual timelines.

 

[Pauln6]

The version allegedly proposed by the writers requires energy to 'create' an entire universe from nothing. Since energy cannot be created or destroyed, we have to ask what that energy was before it became a universe?

The same logic should apply to disappearing heads.

Everybody else's memories 'appear' to change automatically and this would include Data.

If Data's memories changed automatically for some reason, that would not be an "appearance" or an "illusion". That would be an actual change.

EDIT: We don't know that Data didn't jump tracks actually - we only know that the head he retrieved appeared to have the same memories. If he did jump tracks it is possible that the head from the prime universe is waiting in this universe! That only just occurred to me...

Because of the situation with Picard's message, it seems evident that the time travel in Time's Arrow is single-timeline in nature.

The reason it happens is because the time travelling characters have jumped tracks and the Nu Data has all the experiences from this timeline that the traveller is now (and always has been) a part of. Thus if Data goes back at all, it will be this version of Data.

Whatever happens with hypothetical "NuData" is irrelevant to the fact that the Prime timeline has Data Prime's head there, and thus the branching timeline also has Data Prime's head there.

Lol - not only are we not on the same page, we're not in the same universe!

Overall, the problem here is that the writers of Time's Arrow were dealing with a single universe pre-destination paradox. NuTrek is dealing with a version of many worlds theory. At no stage did any of them give any real thought to whether these different theories were compatible any more than the 'single timeline being overwritten' epsidoes were.

I found this on a wiki:

"Few if any physicists or philosophers have taken seriously the possibility of "changing" the past except in the case of multiple universes, and in fact many have argued that this idea is logically incoherent so the mutable timeline idea is rarely considered outside of science fiction."

And this site: http:// www. askamathematician.com/?p=3985, where we have braniacs debating the issue:

"If MWI is true, then there should be many more copies of me in the future than there are in the year 2010. Shouldn’t I be extremely surprised to find myself in 2010? This is not as surprising for Copenhagen."

"MWI is a little worse than that, you also have many histories. There are already a whole lot of versions of you, each thinking they’re the only one. That’s beside the point, but still interesting. Even if there were many more versions of yourself in the future, how many of them will think they’re in 2010? Taking the year as a given restricts which versions you’d find there. To put it another way, this question should be exactly as ponderable as: “If I live for a hundred years, what’s the chance I’d find myself in this year?”
Let me know if I misunderstood your point.
(%00⇂ :suɐ)"

I think maybe it isn't that complicated after all!

 

[Set Harth]

You say it "seems evident", but it doesn't seem evident to me, it seems like more of an assumption. Understanding how you make these determinations would make it easier to discuss the matter with you.

I said how, right before I said it seemed evident.

Of course, if you don't feel that "branching" is the technique that actually occurred...

Branching is what occurred in the time travel depicted in STXI, but I was assuming that events in Time's Arrow proceeded according to single-timeline.

 

[Finn]

^No. But there has to be an original timeline where Data's head wasn't there.

Probably. But I'm pretty sure Trek as we know it doesn't exist in that timeline.

The problem with that theory is that the only reason they ended up in SF was because of that head. If they never found the head in the 24th Century, they would have gone on their happy journey instead of being called back to Earth.

 

[DonIago]

That's not how some of us believe it works, as we tried to explain multiple times (pardon the phrasing)... You can't travel into your own past, you can only travel into the past of an alternate timeline.

Timeline A - Data's head isn't there, Picard and Guinan meet somehow, events transpire to lead the TNG crew to SF in the past. As far as the rest of this timeline is concerned those folks never reappear.
Timeline B - TNG as we know it. Data's head is there because Data and others from timeline A crossed into the past of this timeline. Once this timeline reaches the point of Time's Arrow, the TNG folks will go into timeline C, etc...

Of course the root problem with this particular situation is that it technically is a paradox and shouldn't exist in the first place. My understanding is that even most of those who believe time travel is possible don't believe that you can create a situation where something happens because it already happened.

I'm rather tired right now, so I regrettably may have botched things a bit in explaining it this time. But in an alternate timeline I got it right!