Is Data's head still under San Francisco?

[Set Harth]

Too bad. However, "what form of multiverse theory we should be operating under" doesn't change the result in any way. A "feeling" that changing to a different "form of multiverse theory" might allow for an absent Data head is just wishful thinking not backed up by analysis of the facts. It is a fact that the head was there in the Prime timeline, according to the state of the Prime timeline the last time we left it. Thus it is still there in 2233 when Nero goes back, regardless of whether Nero creates a branching timeline ( as dictated by writer intent ) or alters the past of "the" single timeline. Neither scenario magically causes the head to vanish.

 

[DonIago]

If you wish to continue to assume that Data's head being present in the past is not contingent on him time-traveling in the first place, feel free to continue assuming.

 

[Mr Silver]

Whilst I respect your opinion Set Harth, I do feel that we are looking at this from the wrong perspective. I'm fully invested in the multiverse theory (a common and workable element in Sci-Fi) and I think that the Nu-Trek verse takes place in one such place within a multiverse. Its already been established that there is another universe within trek in the shape of the Mirror Universe, where most people and elements (but not all) are reversed in some fashion.

With the Nu-Trek verse, I'm inclined to imagine its a universe where things happened differently, not negatively like the MU, but differently. For example, lets say that the Eugenics Wars never occured, Arik Soong would find something else to do, perhaps working as an inventor for the Federation (explaining some of the more advanced technology). This in turn would lead to Arik not developing an interest in cybernetics which in turn would be detrimental (but not prohibital) to Noonien Soong becoming a cyberneticist and in turn creating Data.

This scenario would mean that Data's head would not be under San Francisco because he never existed. I don't think Nero and Prime Spock's presence in the Nu-Trek verse altered anything other than what we saw in ST09.

 

[Set Harth]

If you wish to continue to assume that Data's head being present in the past is not contingent on him time-traveling in the first place, feel free to continue assuming.

As seen in Time's Arrow, Data's head was present in the past before he ever time-traveled there. Thus, it seems to be the assumption of TNG that Data's head being present in the past is not contingent on him time-traveling in the first place, because after the head was found Data would have been free to choose not to go back in time at all ( there are other things in TNG canon which demonstrate this point ). The illogicality of predestination paradoxes aside, from the perspective of STXI it is not correct to say that Data never went back in time. From STXI's perspective Data's time travel has already occurred. It is an event from Nero's past and Spock Prime's past. Even if writer intent is discarded and STXI is treated as an exercise in single-timeline theory, it represents a prior alteration to the timeline. It does not matter if the Abramsverse is "the" timeline or a branching timeline created by Nero's time travel. In either case Data's head is there when the Abramsverse comes to be. When Nero and Spock leave the Prime timeline in 2387, they leave a timeline which at that point included Data's head being there between 1893 and 2368 in its past. Nero appears in 2233 of the Prime timeline's past, right in the middle of the period when the head was there.

I don't think Nero and Prime Spock's presence in the Nu-Trek verse altered anything other than what we saw in ST09.

A more accurate way to say that would be to say that the Abramsverse is only different from the Prime because of the changes wrought by the presence of Nero ( and Spock ). That goes beyond just what we saw in the film because of the so-called "butterfly effect" and the unseen consequences of the things that we did see. However it is said, that idea is the whole point. Data's head doesn't disappear from SF just because Nero went back in time. Of course, it is always possible that for some unknown reason the consequences of Nero include someone discovering the head much earlier than the TNG timeframe, possibly even before 2258, and taking it somewhere, destroying it, whatever, but that is beside the point. That's why I've been specifically stating that the head is there in 2233, meaning at the creation of the Abramsverse.

With the Nu-Trek verse, I'm inclined to imagine its a universe where things happened differently, not negatively like the MU, but differently.

It is quite obvious that things happened differently from STXI alone. But this does not start happening until Nero's arrival. Before Nero's arrival, the Prime universe and the Abramsverse have the same past.

For example, lets say that the Eugenics Wars never occured, Arik Soong would find something else to do, perhaps working as an inventor for the Federation (explaining some of the more advanced technology).

I would support the idea of a Eugenics Wars retcon of some kind, in order to bring them into consistency with actual history as it stands now. However, STXI does not provide for the Eugenics Wars happening differently or never occurring in the Abramsverse, given that the Eugenics Wars supposedly took place in the past of the Prime timeline prior to 2233. There are no differences in the past of the Prime timeline and the past of the Abramsverse prior to 2233 ( excepting possible alterations of the past occurring in the future of the Abramsverse ), because the Abramsverse is created by Nero leaving Prime 2387 and appearing in Prime 2233.

 

[DonIago]

I've already discussed how your interpretation may not be correct, so I'm not sure why you're reiterating this...?

 

[Set Harth]

I've already discussed how your interpretation may not be correct, so I'm not sure why you're reiterating this...?

Because your assumption of how my interpretation may not be correct is itself not correct and fails to explain why the head would disappear from the Prime timeline. First, you assume that Data's head being in the past is contingent upon him time-traveling in the first place, an assumption which does not seem to work when applied to Time's Arrow itself. If this assumption were entirely accurate, Data's head could not have been discovered before his time travel had even occurred. But the main point is that Time's Arrow did not excise the head from the past; as the Prime timeline went forward from Time's Arrow up to and including 2387, the head was still there in the past of the timeline. Nero going back to 2233 does not change this. Even under the assumption that the presence of the head must depend on Data's time travel having occurred, from the POV of 2387 we can certainly say that Data's time travel had occurred ( Spock and Nero both lived through a time period during which Time's Arrow took place ). At that point the presence of the head was a part of the past of the timeline, and thus it became a part of the Abramsverse past/present. The head I'm referring to is Data Prime's head. Whatever does or does not happen with hypothetical character "NuData" is not what I'm talking about.

 

[DonIago]

Paraphrasing timelines-

Timeline A - No head. The TNG crew ends up time-traveling to SF for reasons unrelated to Data's head...but when you time travel into the past you are traveling into a different timeline. Everyone who traveled into the past is never seen again.

Timeline B - Data's head from Timeline A is here and prompts the TNG folks to time travel into the past...but when you time travel into the past you are traveling into a different timeline...

C....who knows how many timelines...see Timeline B. The TNG people are finding a head that originated from a different timeline, and each time they travel into the past they jump to a new timeline.

When Nero travels into the past he creates a new timeline...when Spock travels into the past he also creates a new timeline (they can't actually reach exactly the same timeline as they travel into the past separately). Is Data's head in SF? Maybe, but maybe not. Without knowing whether Data and the TNG folks will be prompted to travel into the past, and how, we can't know whether the head was there.

Regardless of writer's intentions or our own beliefs, in any case we can't know whether the head would "really" be there because we have no idea how time travel would actually work, much less whether different versions of it may be possible. Maybe some versions send you back along the same timeline, while others bump you into a pre-existing altenate timeline while still others "branch" a timeline off the one you're used to.

In any case, I maintain the only way Time's Arrow could work is if the TNG crew originally time-traveled into the past for reasons other than the discovery of Data's head. Something has to get the ball rolling, and "it's a paradox" is convenient but ignores other possibilities.

 

[Set Harth]

(they can't actually reach exactly the same timeline as they travel into the past separately).

It is sufficiently clear from the film that they end up in the same timeline.

Without knowing whether Data and the TNG folks will be prompted to travel into the past, and how, we can't know whether the head was there.

I assume you're talking about "NuData"? That would be relevant to the question of whether the ( hypothetical ) NuData head is there. It's not the question of whether the Data Prime head is there, which does not depend on the actions of "NuData". The Data Prime head is there in the Prime timeline when the Abramsverse is created and thus carries over into the Abramsverse. As to the question of the NuData head, even if we assume the "NuTNG" crew eventually alters the Abramsverse timeline itself in single-timeline fashion ( since branching would have no effect on the past in the original Abramsverse timeline ), that would still be a future event from the POV of the origin of the Abramsverse.

The TNG people are finding a head that originated from a different timeline

Then the "nuTNG" people should similarly find the head that originated from the Prime timeline.

and each time they travel into the past they jump to a new timeline.

If that's the case, then the "nuTNG" people wouldn't be able to affect the past of the Abramsverse timeline.

Maybe some versions send you back along the same timeline, while others bump you into a pre-existing altenate timeline while still others "branch" a timeline off the one you're used to.

For simplicity let us number those options 1, 2, and 3. Inspection of the specifics of Time's Arrow shows that its time travel is type 1, while the red matter black hole time travel of STXI is said to be type 3. However, even if the time travel of STXI were assumed to be type 1, it would still lead to the Data Prime head being there in Abramsverse 2233, just as it does under the assumption that the STXI time travel is type 3. So what is left? Only the possibility that the STXI time travel was actually type 2, which goes against the intent of the writers.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Again: The multiverse doesn't work like that. There's a universe for every single possible outcome to any event, anywhere, ever.

At it's most basic it's yes/no. A flowchart. On stardate 2233.04 there's two possibilities (actually infinite billions, but 2 for simplicity's sake):
Does Narada appear from 2387?

Yes - leads to the events of STXI.

No - leads to the events of TOS.


Same thing during "Endgame":
Does Admiral Janeway appear from the 25th century?

Yes - Voyager uses the Borg hub to get home.

No - Voyager takes 26 more years to get home as seen at the beginning of "Endgame", where Tuvok looses his marbles, and Seven and Chakotay die.

It's not just time travel - that's merely sci-fi's way of showing us the differences. It's what socks you put on this morning. How many times you brushed before spitting, if the Next Gen crew beat the Borg or not.

The timelines we see are "time tracks" weaving through an infinite number of these possible outcomes.

 

[YellowSubmarine]

I'm wondering something else: Would there, by any chance, be a 29th century or 31st century time agent who got stranded in the nuTrek verse after going there to prevent the temporary incursion, not realizing he would fall in a different universe?

 

[DonIago]

I doubt it, if only because I would think anyone who's going to be dealing extensively with "time travel" would have the ability to jump alternate timelines as well.

As "Parallels" illustrated, a "simple" check of one's quantum signature is enough to confirm whether or not you are where you're supposed to be...I'd imagine that any time a temporal agent clocks out, so to speak, they're careful to make sure they end up where they're supposed to be.

Of course, if their equipment malfunctioned or was stolen or such, they could be just as screwed as the NuFolks are.

I'd like to think that if not before "Parallels", then certainly afterwards, such checks were mandated any time folks encountered an anomaly where time travel or any other form of alternate universe transfer was a possibility.

I also see no reason to believe, beyond writer's intention, which is a flimsy reason indeed, that every incident of time travel depicted in Trek involved a transfer between (nearly-identical in most cases) timelines.

 

[Set Harth]

As far as writer intent is concerned, I'm only assuming that the time travel depicted in STXI operated according to branching theory and created the new timeline. There are previous examples of time travel in canon which do not fit the branching model. Time's Arrow is one of them. I've been using the assumption that both modes of time travel ( single-timeline and branching ) can exist within the same continuity, but if the intent of the writers is to retcon all prior examples of single-timeline time travel, that creates a lot of problems. The episodes which do not fit branching theory must have happened completely differently if they happened at all.

 

[UFO]

... if the intent of the writers is to retcon all prior examples of single-timeline time travel, that creates a lot of problems. The episodes which do not fit branching theory must have happened completely differently if they happened at all.

I previously said I thought all time travel stories could work under branching universe theory if the producers simply followed the main characters from one universe to the next, in a rather misleading (to the audience) way, as branching occurred. However I think you're right. I can't see any way "City on the Edge of Forever" could reasonably be done like that.

 

[DonIago]

I think for City the biggest issue is Our Heroes being insulated from the changes that occur to the rest of the universe. Other than that it's pretty straightforward.

Timeline A - Life as we know it up until McCoy jumps back in time. Shortly afterwards Our Heroes do the same.
Timeline B - Edith Keeler lives due to McCoy's meddling. Somehow Our Heroes are able to witness this timeline without effectively traveling into it.
Timeline C - Kirk and Spock follow McCoy into this timeline. Edith Keeler dies (again). TOS continues forward in this timeline.
Timelines E... - Where Uhura et al. might have ended up if they'd also gone through the Guardian.

 

[F. King Daniel]

The Guardian's magical powers excuse it from having to make any sense, IMO. Just like Q.

FWIW, "Yesteryear" is very much in favour of multiverse theory - Spock wishes Thelin well in his timeline before heading back and "creating" the TOS branch by saving his younger self.

 

[siskokid888]

Where the hell is Temporal Investigations when you need them?

 

[DonIago]

Digging in San Fran to see whether they find Data's head, of course.

 

[F. King Daniel]

 

[UFO]

FWIW, "Yesteryear" is very much in favour of multiverse theory - Spock wishes Thelin well in his timeline before heading back and "creating" the TOS branch by saving his younger self.

I really hate to disagree (as you know ) but if the Spock who went back to save himeself came from the TOS branch (he must have, if he didn't live to grow up in the parent branch), how could he create the TOS branch?

 

[F. King Daniel]

FWIW, "Yesteryear" is very much in favour of multiverse theory - Spock wishes Thelin well in his timeline before heading back and "creating" the TOS branch by saving his younger self.

I really hate to disagree (as you know ) but if the Spock who went back to save himeself came from the TOS branch (he must have, if he didn't live to grow up in the parent branch), how could he create the TOS branch?

Because time isn't linear! The multiverse "really" happens all at once, the way DS9's wormhole aliens see it. Cause and effect are illusions created by our mortal limitations.