After all, an author who makes Voyager interesting may indeed possess transformational powers that are beyond the understanding of average mortals such as myself
Kirsten Beyer invitation in VOY forum
- Thread starter lurok
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If a character in a story is killed, especially in a long-running series like Voyager, the audience usually wants to see them go out in a respectful way, to go out in death the way they went about in life, in a great dramatic moment, like Gandalf's fall at the Bridge of Khazad-Dum or Arthur's fall at the Battle of Camlann. Mythic characters deserve mythic endings. That's what we tell ourselves.
Life isn't like that.
People in life die for stupid and mundane reasons every day. I could walk out in the street to get my mail and be struck by a car, and that sucks, but that's also how random life can be. There's no meaning to it.
Tasha Yar's death was shockingly true to life. Kirk's death wasn't as mythic as the life he lived. Janeway's death was rather mundane, too. (I think of Janeway's death as happening early in Before Dishonor, when she gets assimilated; it just takes another three hundred pages for her body to die and complete the process of dying.) None of them were dramatically satisfying, yet all three ring true. They died the way life was lived.
And don't forget Jadzia Dax.
Here's the thing though. As I recall, doesn't near the end of the book Janeway get some sort of self-aware moment and is able to take some sort of last action against the Borg despite being assimilated before she dies? Or am I misremembering?
If I'm right, still brutal and rather cold - but much more mythic than Tasha, Kirk, or Dax's death.
Here's the thing though. As I recall, doesn't near the end of the book Janeway get some sort of self-aware moment and is able to take some sort of last action against the Borg despite being assimilated before she dies? Or am I misremembering?
If I'm right, still brutal and rather cold - but much more mythic than Tasha, Kirk, or Dax's death.
No, you're pretty much right. Janeway makes an effort of will that weakens the Borg just enough to allow the plan to defeat them to succeed.
While that is obviously true, it doesn't make Before Dishonor a better story than it was. A perfectly mundane death can be beautifully told, or would-be epic sacrifice can be bungled.
Or, in other words: stories that suck do not do a better job of depicting life than well-written ones, simply because life itself sucks a good percentage of the time.
Unfortunatly, Trek fans are humans. And humans can quite unfair at times. Especially when they feel they don't get things their way.
I don't follow the idea that it is "unfair." As an example, I'm sure there are many Trek fans that don't read the Voyager novels because they didn't like that particular show. Is that also unfair?
Those people might be missing out, but I don't think it follows that they are being unfair to anyone.
That's especially true given that supporting the series financially is, in certain respects, tantamount to condoning the decision. At the very least, it is perfectly understandable that some individuals might not want to purchase the Beyer novels for that reason, regardless of their quality.
Those people might be missing out, but I don't think it follows that they are being unfair to anyone.
That's especially true given that supporting the series financially is, in certain respects, tantamount to condoning the decision. At the very least, it is perfectly understandable that some individuals might not want to purchase the Beyer novels for that reason, regardless of their quality.
Whatever decision they make, it should at least be an informed decision based on the facts, rather than an impulsive one based on false assumptions and prejudices. The assumption that the novels written after Janeway's death are dismissive of her is false. The assumption that people who value the Janeway character would find nothing to enjoy in these novels is false. The assumption that Pocket Books as a corporation has some sort of top-down agenda that leads it to instruct authors to go to conventions and spout their party line is so far beyond false that I don't even have a word for it. People are entitled to their opinions, if they're informed opinions. If their opinions are based on false assumptions, then it's not wrong to point out the falsehoods. They don't have to change their decisions as a result, but at least they'll be basing those decisions on the truth instead of fears and distortions. Surely you can't object to that.
On the subject of Kirsten Beyer being "told" to attend this convention, yes, I believe that notion has been amply refuted by, what... five posters already in the thread? Six? Including Beyer herself? I think the point has been made.
You are certainly right to note that Janeway remains an important figure in the current Voyager novels, but that may be small consolation to those who would have preferred to see the story handled differently. Moreover, some fans may simply be unsympathetic to the idea that honoring her memory makes up for the decision to eliminate her in the first place.
You are certainly right to note that Janeway remains an important figure in the current Voyager novels, but that may be small consolation to those who would have preferred to see the story handled differently. Moreover, some fans may simply be unsympathetic to the idea that honoring her memory makes up for the decision to eliminate her in the first place.
Yes, but the idea is so absurd that it deserves continued refuting.
Which is fine, but it doesn't change the fact that the decision to kill Janeway is not an inherently malicious decision made out of misogyny or dislike of the character, or that good writing cannot come of it.
For the third (?) time, nobody's disputing that people are entitled to their own opinions. What I'm talking about is the separate issue of whether they have the facts straight.
After a while, it becomes more about brow-beating the poster in question than refuting the original point. No doubt an enjoyable pastime for some.
Other than the point about why Kirsten Beyer is attending this convention, I think you are refuting a bunch of assumptions that, realistically, no one is actually making.
For example, I'm confident that the Bring Back Janeway "community" or whatever is well aware that a dead character can still be a presence in a story in a variety of ways and that there are some prominent examples of this in popular culture.
But you never know. Maybe someone will see the light due to the Uncle Ben analogy
That's quite uncalled for. No need to assume petty motives from people.
I'm not really assuming anything about any particular poster's motives, but rather making an observation based on how internet forums tend to work, and this forum in particular.
No doubt a false statement was made, but for example... "so far beyond false that I don't even have a word for it..." Really? Some sort of unnameable transgression was committed? I think "false" works fine, and that there's no need to make a big deal of it beyond that.
I understand that your intent is to be conciliatory here, however, and that your main point is that Janeway fans might actually like Beyer's novels if they would give them a chance, so I don't mean to detract from that. Because, well, you're right. They might.
Yeah, but even you have to admit that what was said was down right ridiculous.
I haven't seen a great deal of rationality on the side of the BBJers. I gave up on them last year after they personally attack me. Odd thing was I wasn't being an asshole like I usually am. I was actually giving them advice on how to achieve their goals. Naturally I was verbally raped by the little whores. Now I hope that if they bring back Janeway, they bring her back with her brain on the outside of her head. Show those little bitches right.
what irritates me is the attitude of the fans about Janeway's death. it's so juvenile, the way these people carry on, you'd think PAD had murdered their mothers or something.
it's a BOOK about a FICTIONAL CHARACTER from a TV SHOW. get a grip people.
it's a BOOK about a FICTIONAL CHARACTER from a TV SHOW. get a grip people.
Oh yeah those BBJ'ers, they're irrational. Violent even.
I don't believe you've said anything there that contradicts my opinion. I think there's a wealth of opportunities there, but since we can't post story ideas, I'm not going to speculate.
I don't believe you've said anything there that contradicts my opinion. I think there's a wealth of opportunities there, but since we can't post story ideas, I'm not going to speculate.
Good writing is about makeing a place for Janeway that is uniquely her own. This is where you all have it backward. You don't "bring Janeway back because now you need the character." You decide to bring her back and write a really good book around it. Bringing her back is the "PLOT." Right now Janeway is dead just to have her dead, that isn't any kind of writing opportunity.
Quoting Therin of Andor
http://therinofandor.blogspot.com/2010/04/admiral-is-still-dead-so-far.html
Now the question is do the writers have the "balls" to do the right thing and bring her back.
No it's you that should get a grip, because she is a fictional character from a television series. You are the ones that are delusional, we can bring her back "BECAUSE" she is fictional, and since we want to read about her why shouldn't we let people know how we feel.
I think you are the ones that don't understand she is a fictional character. Frankly it's your attitude that is juvenile because appearently you don't even know that it is polite to share with others. We know PAD didn't murder our mothers, what he tried to do is even worse. He tried to murder our dreams.
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