Revisiting Star Trek TOS/TAS...

[evilnate]

Why am I not surprised? Why bother watching them then? Its a foregone conclusion. Its better to stay off in your own little comfortable world.

RAMA

I won't speak for W9, but several of us have stated again and again and AGAIN that there are many things about TOS-R we like A LOT and yet (this might just be me) we HATE the new WNMHGB FX, especially the gas cloud, er, barrier.

I don't see why this has to come down to an all or nothing appreciation of TOS-R's new FX. As I stated in the TOS-R thread, I think that "The Corbomite Manuver" was particuarly well done. What I love about it, is that they stuck to the look of the warning bouy, really only adding lighting effects on the Enterprise hull, but then we see the Fesarius, and we're treated to this awesomely detailed, massive starship that really sells the scale of it compared to the Enterprise.

I think that the TOS-R FX team's stated goal was good: recreate the look of 60's special effects with modern CGI. You can see that in the earliest episodes they did, such as "Balance of Terror". The problem in that episode is that the Enterprise model wasn't as good as the one they would use later, but the Bird of Prey was good. Later on though, their goal seemed to go out the window, and rather than recreating the look of 60's effects, they started doing more and more things that never would have been possible. Honestly, I would have rather they had just decided from the get-go to go all out, because often we'd get something neat like the Fesarius, or the explosion of Sarpedion's sun, or many of the enhanced matte paintings.

That said, I would have rather they taken a more artistic approach to the new FX. What would have been interesting is rather than trying to walk the line between devotion to the original shots and current CGI, they could have looked at the FX of the top movies of the period, and attempted to copy the look of that. It would have been more difficult, and probably would have taken more time, but imagine TOS with 2001: A Space Oddessy style effects!

 

[Warped9]

That said, I would have rather they taken a more artistic approach to the new FX. What would have been interesting is rather than trying to walk the line between devotion to the original shots and current CGI, they could have looked at the FX of the top movies of the period, and attempted to copy the look of that. It would have been more difficult, and probably would have taken more time, but imagine TOS with 2001: A Space Oddessy style effects!

I've been saying something along this line since the beginning. If you're going to enhance the f/x why not make them look like top-of-the-line from the original era rather than middle-of-the road contemporary?

 

[MANT!]

Agreed with "Spock's Brain"...but the new TOS-R ship seems to imply "Future Tech" to me, not the fuzzy Flash Gordon style rocket shown in the original effects..(damn thing ALWAYS bothered me even when I was 7...) It just didn't LOOK like it belonged in the Star Trek Universe to me...looked too much like the toys my parents bought me from Woolworths...

So a difference of opinion here.. relatively minor..

 

[Warped9]

^^ Sorry, but I disagree. i really liked that ship and it was of the era. Again TOS-R changed it for change's sake and no other reason but to be kewl. They updated the Tholian ships (poorly) which was a much simpler looking design so why not this one?

Sorry, but

It's decisions like these that feed my disappointment with the supposed "enhancements" CBS made.

 

[MANT!]

Which you can...



After all it's all a matter of opinion..not fact..

 

[evilnate]

I've been saying something along this line since the beginning. If you're going to enhance the f/x why not make them look like top-of-the-line from the original era rather than middle-of-the road contemporary?

The more I think about it, the more difficult I think it would be. There's no way that the TOS-R team would have shot models on a stage, so it would have to be CGI. Creating "model-like" CGI effects is possible, I've even seen it in fan-films. Starship Exeter comes to mind as having reasonably model-like CGI. However, that's only half-way there. The lighting plays a big part in that, and that was one area that CBS-D fell really flat in. Another would be to restrain the shots. You couldn't have CGI "motion-controlled" shots in it, since motion control rigs weren't invented yet. It would call for a high degree of both artistic capability and restraint to create such shots. I know it could be done, but I'm not sure that it could have been done with TOS-R's limited budget and time constraints.

 

[plynch]

Re the low-poly Klingons. Yes.
I practically shouted "Oh, how crappy!" when I saw those shots. I wondered if they were using video-game-level low-poly meshes with cleverly-painted image maps.

I feel like I'm on the bridge of Voyager overhearing some technobabble. Maybe the CGI artists should have reverse polaron tachyite beam-fielded the phase coupler inducer. (Then, as always happens on VOY . . . ta da, it WORKS! You get better effects however you prefer them, whether kewl or spiffed-up retro.)

(Just to further reveal my ignorance, I thought low-poly was referring to a type of plastic used in . . . you know, a real model. Like we used to build back when grass was green and phones had cords.)

 

[Warped9]

"Is There In Truth No Beauty?" *****

The Enterprise transports an enigmatic woman and her unusual alien companion.

This one is a bit of a surprise because I recall it as okay to possibly good, but not really special. But there's a lot going on here. In terms of trivia we get the first mention of IDIC, a highly sophisticated sensor web that allows the blind to "see" (something of a precursor to Laforge's visor in TNG) and an alien so unimaginable in appearance that he can only be among humans while hidden away. We meet one of the designers of the Enterprise (or perhaps one of the designers of the Constitution-class starships). Hmm, wonder if he once worked with Richard Daystrom? We also see the return of Diana Muldaur in a different role.

Stepping up we get yet another distinctive---and very interesting---soundtrack (they're just rockin' it out in this area for the beginning of this season ). There's interesting cinematography (Season 3 seems pretty strong for this). And another look at the arboretum, a new interior set for the Enterprise (okay, probably a redress of an existing set). We also get some pretty subtle and nuanced performances from all the major characters of this story. What a wonderful surprise coming on the heels of two such disappointments as "And The Children Shall Lead" and "Spock's Brain."

And it's a damned good story: the possibility of using the highly unusual Medusans as navigators for starships of the future. Pity TNG never revisited this idea. Additionally we get a highly unusual love triangle between Larry Marvick, Miranda Jones and Medusan Ambassador Kollos---one that results in Marvick's insanity and his taking the Enterprise into an unknown void. And I have to say I've always liked the look of that void: very surreal and psychedelic and bang-on with the era. I have to add I also like it far better than the TOS-R version which just looks rather ho-hum. Oh, and there is another triangle, although a professional one rather than romantic, between Spock, Kollos and Miranda.

It's a very stylish episode---the soundtrack and the cinematography serve to create an unusual and moody atmosphere and thereby enhancing an already good story. And how interesting that much of the story revolves around characters that are not one of the major three. Finally we get one of the most poetic titles for a Star Trek episode.

Frankly I kept waiting for this episode to fumble somewhere along the way as it unfolded yet it never missed a step. In some ways I felt almost like I was seeing this for the first time after only hearing about it.

Well done and very welcomed.

 

[Captain Robert April]

^^ Sorry, but I disagree. i really liked that ship and it was of the era. Again TOS-R changed it for change's sake and no other reason but to be kewl. They updated the Tholian ships (poorly) which was a much simpler looking design so why not this one?

Sorry, but

It's decisions like these that feed my disappointment with the supposed "enhancements" CBS made.

I suspect in the case of "The Tholian Web", there may have been an added factor, namely "In A Mirror, Darkly...". With that entry, it was pretty clearly established that the Tholians snatched the Defiant, apparently by going back and forth through the interphase with nary a care in the multiverse.

So, with that bit of continuity hanging out there, it would've caused all kinds of consternation if the Tholian ships causing problems for the Enterprise didn't look the same as the ones mucking about in ENT, since they're supposed to be the very same Tholians.

Better to be criticized for a lousy looking Tholian ship than to screw up continuity unnecessarily.

 

[Warped9]

Better to be criticized for a lousy looking Tholian ship than to screw up continuity unnecessarily.

My stand on ENT is already well known, but it's beside the point. They didn't change the Tholian design so why change this one? Because they just damned well felt like it. And any noises about respecting the original artistry and creativity is just plain horse shit.

 

[GNDN]

I suspect in the case of "The Tholian Web", there may have been an added factor, namely "In A Mirror, Darkly...". With that entry, it was pretty clearly established that the Tholians snatched the Defiant, apparently by going back and forth through the interphase with nary a care in the multiverse.

So, with that bit of continuity hanging out there, it would've caused all kinds of consternation if the Tholian ships causing problems for the Enterprise didn't look the same as the ones mucking about in ENT, since they're supposed to be the very same Tholians.

Better to be criticized for a lousy looking Tholian ship than to screw up continuity unnecessarily.

This may be kinda like bringing a knife to a pie fight, but this betrays errors in ENT continuity, not TOS.

First, the Tholians in ENT were from the Mirror Universe (commentary for the episode explains that this is also why the Tholian web-forming technology is faster/more advanced) And just as with TOS-R, there was no reason that the Tholian ships in ENT could not or should not have appeared more like they did in TOS.

TOS-R had no responsibility to ret-con the originals to look like their crappy, video-game inspired "re-imaginings" that appeared in ENT.

 

[Warped9]

TOS-R had no responsibility to ret-con the originals to look like their crappy, video-game inspired "re-imaginings" that appeared in ENT.

True...unless the Paramount continuity cops ordered it.

 

[scotpens]

Re “Is There In Truth No Beauty?”: George Duning’s rich, melodic score (he also scored “Return to Tomorrow,” “Metamorphosis” and “The Empath”) adds much to the episode’s mood and atmosphere, though the music is a bit overpowering at times. In fact, in TOS’s third season, the music was frequently better than the scripts or the acting.

 

[Warped9]

Re: "Is There In Truth No Beauty?"

The episode really marks a difference in overall style and atmosphere from the previous seasons. Season 1 has a distinct early '60s feel to it, one I could describe as rather Kennedy-esque. The second season is a bit lighter and looser. Season 3 feels very late '60s with its varied cinematography and scoring. There's something almost Woodstock about it the way it resonates with the music and films of the time (and beyond "The Way To Eden" ). It's actually rather cool. For all the criticism the third season gets there is also a lot of unrecognized creativity going for it.

 

[Tallguy]

Marvick had to have been some kind of Daystrom-like child prodigy. The actor was in his early forties so we'll figure Marvick is somewhere close to that.

At the very least Pike was captain fifteen years ago (two years since The Menagerie at this point). And we'll assume that the E isn't right out of space dock in The Cage. Discounting a previous captain (sorry, April, but this predates TAS, so it could be TAS that got it wrong) I'd say the youngest we can make the Enterprise would be 16. 17? More realistically over 20. I think The Making of Star Trek even says the Enterprise is 40.

Just sayin'.

 

[Tallguy]

There's something almost Woodstock about it the way it resonates with the music and films of the time (and beyond "The Way To Eden" ).

I very much agree, even WITHOUT the "space hippies". It kind of makes me fear the idea of a season four (or five). We'd be crossing firmly into the 70's. Yikes. Looking at the "space couch" bridge designs for Phase II makes me worry about where their heads were at.

Of course TAS turned out ok.

 

[Warped9]

Marvick had to have been some kind of Daystrom-like child prodigy. The actor was in his early forties so we'll figure Marvick is somewhere close to that.

At the very least Pike was captain fifteen years ago (two years since The Menagerie at this point). And we'll assume that the E isn't right out of space dock in The Cage. Discounting a previous captain (sorry, April, but this predates TAS, so it could be TAS that got it wrong) I'd say the youngest we can make the Enterprise would be 16. 17? More realistically over 20. I think The Making of Star Trek even says the Enterprise is 40.

Just sayin'.

TMoST says the Enterprise class or type of ships were about forty years old. That would gel with seeing the Constellation numbered 1017 and the Republic numbered 1371 if you went with the forty year notion.

And assuming folks of the future live somewhat longer than Marvick could have been in his early to mid fifties. Hell, we see some folks in their fifties today who look damned good. And it took quite a few guys to subdue him. And look at Picard who is quite an active guy when within the show he could be pushing near sixty.

 

[SchwEnt]

Marvick's age does seem to be doubtful with his designer of the Enterprise thing. I forget, does Scotty mention him as an "original" designer?

I explain it away that Marvick was involved with the latest incarnation of the Enterprise. Clearly it's not the same ship from Pike's time, or even WNMHGB.
There were upgrades and maybe Marvick was one of the leaders of the latest upgrade, maybe ten years prior. Marvick was the designer of the Enterprise *in its current incarnation*, after the latest upgrade. Or something.

Anyway, ***** for "Beauty"? Really? Best of the best?

 

[HarryM]

Yes, maybe he designed the "spinny part" of the nacelles...
Ugly jumpsuit, BTW, never liked the jumpsuits, (except for Andrea's...)

 

[Forbin]

Re: Is There in Truth...

Possibly my favorite episode for mood, beauty and story. And such a wonderful example of late 60s' awakening philosophy as exemplified by the title, and emphasized by the quoting of the IDIC concept (even if it was cynically developed for commercialism). Beautiful score (I'm gonna cal it my favorite. it's the CD I listen to most of the bunch), beautiful cinematography. I absolutely love the use of fisheye lenses, even if it seems over the top now - that shot Kirk coming out into the hall after Miranda to find it empty.

Gorgeous episode all around.