The Two Doctors

[Mr Light]

Thanks to a little You Tube search I just saw The Two Doctors for the first time, with Colin Baker and Patrick Troughton.

...

What the HELL was that?!

The Two Doctors only spend about 5 minutes together in the space of a 90 minute serial? Troughton becomes this asinine cannibal with goofy red eyebrows? There's Sontarans but they don't really do anything? The evil scientist guy with the 70s disco sunglasses? The cannibal fat dude with the red eyebrows who spends the entire episode questing after human meat?

What the HELL was that?!

I'd been putting off my final Doctor crossover episode for all this time... and THAT'S what I was saving myself for?!

 

[Saga]

i pretty much felt the same after i watched it. the first half of the first ep was interesting, if nothing more than we got to see the 2nd Doctor and Jamie together again. but yeah, The Two Doctors was pretty terrible.

 

[Bacl]

I have always felt this was one of the best episodes, and a VERY underrated one. The plot is actually quite thoughtful, filled with underlying subtexts and even some nice character moments. The writer was apparently a vegetarian, and wanted to promote his philosophy about the cruelty of butchering animals for food. While we might not all agree with this philosophy (I myself am quite the carnivore) I do think that science fiction at its core is about exploring new ideas, new ways of looking at things. Doctor Who sometimes steers too heavily towards Science Fantasy, and this episode really had a nice social Science Fiction heart.

Also, unlike a lot of Old Who, I feel this series is watchable all the way through, and does not start to unravel and fall apart towards the end (I'll never forget how my wife and I started Paradise Towers, thought it was one of the most brilliant things ever, and then slowly it began to get sloppy until it ended in the most ridiculous manner and ruined our overall experience).

On a minor note, I really like the 6th Doctor's updated outfit when they get to Spain. The vest is actually rather snazzy, and this is the only instance for me where the clashing colors of the 6th don't offend the eye. He looks rather eccentric and artistic in those vest-shots, and the outfit fits the Spanish landscape brilliantly.

Heck, they even attempt to explain why the Sixth Doctor doesn't remember this adventure (SPOILERS: They inject the 2nd Doctor with anesthetic drugs, and the 2nd says those drugs will effect his memory). Kudos to them for starting to think 4 dimensionally for a change!

I'd give this episode an A+. One of my absolute favorites.

Funny moment: I loved Peri pointing out to the Doctor, after he suggests she pose as a student to spy on Desari, that she can't speak Spanish, and then the Doctor very cleverly pointing out to Peri that neither do the aliens.

 

[Mr Light]

I mean seriously. You put #2 in a room with another Doctor. Boom. Comedy gold. Why would you keep them separated the entire story?!?!?!

Speaking of Peri, this is the only the second time I've seen her (I saw Davidson's final serial a few weeks ago). She's pretty terrible. And annoying. And her impression of an American accent is vaguely insulting

 

[DWF]

If it was a mere 90 minutes then you were robbed, it was a three parter meaning it was about the same length as a six parter in the half hour days. And there wasn't any indication of the two Doctors working together. It was written be Robert Holmes and I thought he did his normal good work with the various characters.

 

[Newspaper Taxi]

The scene where the cannibals go into a restauraunt was hilarious. It's been a few years since I saw it last but at the time it was the funniest thing I've seen in all of my Who-ing.

 

[Starkers]

I think it's without a doubt the worst multiple Doctor story. There are some neat ideas buried here, but it isn't one of Robert Homes better efforts.

The sontarans are relegated to comedy henchmen almost, and the makeup is terrible. The story is more than a little disturbing, what with Shockeye wanting to eat Jamie and Peri, not to mention actually eating an old woman, and love Jacqui Pearce as I do, she is effectively playing Servalan again, and the blood licking is just icky (though like I say, an interesting idea about nature/nurture). On top of this the scenes with Two and Shockeye at dinner add nothing, and let's not forget the Doctor actually murders someone, he lies in wait and poisones them! The death of the Englishman is pointless, and Dastari never comes across as anything beyond two dimentional, and while I understand about the actor's need to wear glasses, they and the outfit unfortunately make him look like Brains from Thunderbirds, and the Spanish locations are somewhat wasted (but you could say the same of Paris and Amsterdam).

On the plus side, as someone who isn't the greatest Six fan in the world, I actually quite like him in this, he has some nice interplay with Jamie, and ditching the coat once they reach Seville makes a world of difference. Plus it has Troughton and Hines in it and I can't hate seeing them again.

 

[Mr Light]

I dearly love Three Doctors, and Five Doctors is quite great as well. This is just so terrible in comparison.

 

[Cutter John]

I dearly love Three Doctors, and Five Doctors is quite great as well. This is just so terrible in comparison.

No argument here. Doubly annoying because it started out so well.
Plus theres the fact that it completely buggered Two's continuity.

 

[OmahaStar]

I dearly love Three Doctors, and Five Doctors is quite great as well. This is just so terrible in comparison.

No argument here. Doubly annoying because it started out so well.
Plus theres the fact that it completely buggered Two's continuity.

In what way? It completely plays into 6B.

These are the facts, which we know - Two was told he was going to have a regeneration, and they pull away, on Gallifrey. At some unspecified point, we see Three emerge from his Tardis, on Earth, post-regeneration. Who says they happened one right after the other?

Look, with all the other classic Doctors, we saw the regeneration, so there was no question (look at all the questions surrounding Eight to Nine's regen). Here, there is. And that leaves room for many possible adventures, such as this, or the Five Doctors, or others.

Which totally works for me. And Six is the star, so it's a pretty great story all-around.

 

[Iamnotspock]

In what way? It completely plays into 6B.

The whole 6B thing was only invented as a result of this story (and the line in The Five Doctors where the second Doctor knows Jamie's and Zoe's fate). At the time, it was seen as having bad continuity with the second Doctor's era.

These are the facts, which we know - Two was told he was going to have a regeneration, and they pull away, on Gallifrey. At some unspecified point, we see Three emerge from his Tardis, on Earth, post-regeneration. Who says they happened one right after the other?

It stands to reason that they would've occurred that way, one right after the other. That was certainly the intention in 1969. Just because we might be able to come up with a convenient fanon explanation for the discrepancy doesn't mean there isn't one.

 

[Mark_Nguyen]

I liked it. 6B is poure fan retcon, but it fits very well. Condemned criminals can wait for years before their execution. If the second Doctor was indeed "condemned" to be regenerated and then exiled, why not use him a bit before you carry sentence?

Anyway, The Two Doctors does accent how NOT to do a multi-Doctor story, even though IMO the reasoning was fine. In the prior two multi-Doctor stories, the whole thing was orchestrated by forces on Gallifrey in a case of extreme need (or evil machination). Here, the second Doctor gets into trouble and the sixth happens to be the one "closest" (in spatio-temoral proximity, from my reckoning) to react to being "killed" and to respond.

Still, while some may argue that a multi-Doctor story is to allow the fans to see a prior Doctor in action again, IMO it's more entertaining to have them INTERACT. This story and The Five Doctors are examples of the former; the various Doctors only interact towards the end of the story and bugger off in their own TARDISes as soon as they can.

In The Three Doctors (and Time Crash, at least proportionately-speaking), the focus is more on each Doctor interacting with each other while working towards fixing the problem at hand, and THEN buggering off. I like to close the chapter on Doctors when they leave and would rather revisit their best adventures rather than give them another kick at the can while sharing screen time with other leads... I'd much prefer them spend said time fighting, hating, then working WITH those other leads while they're around.

Mark

 

[saturn5]

I liked it, Six and Two are a great pair, Peri is gorgeous and these are the days when the spudheads actually looked dangerous rather than some form of mutated jockeys. Servalan was also good

 

[Shatnertage]

I really didn't like this episode. Were there mercenaries in it? I remembered that it relied heavily on cannibals, another element Saward seemed to use in every episode. It just seemed mean-spirited in a lot of ways, like when the actor guy gets killed.

 

[Andrew_Kearley]

The whole 6B thing was only invented as a result of this story (and the line in The Five Doctors where the second Doctor knows Jamie's and Zoe's fate). At the time, it was seen as having bad continuity with the second Doctor's era.

It stands to reason that they would've occurred that way, one right after the other. That was certainly the intention in 1969. Just because we might be able to come up with a convenient fanon explanation for the discrepancy doesn't mean there isn't one.

The idea of Troughton doing stuff between The War Games and Spearhead has been around since 1969. When Terrance Dicks suggested it to the writers of TV Comic.

 

[DWF]

The season 6B idea can't be used for The Two Doctors since the Doctor said they just dropped off Victoria so it has to happen before season six, that in an of itself makes little sense given other dialogue in the story, but there you go.

 

[Andrew_Kearley]

The season 6B idea can't be used for The Two Doctors since the Doctor said they just dropped off Victoria so it has to happen before season six, that in an of itself makes little sense given other dialogue in the story, but there you go.

Terrance Dicks explained all that in his novel World Game. It's a mental fiction that the Time Lords created for Jamie's benefit.

 

[Bacl]

Time is not a straight progression from cause to effect, especially when the Time Lords are involved. Their powers were near infinite. They could pluck you back from the dead or unwrite your existence.

They granted the 2nd Doctor and his companions continued travel through space and time after his sentence in exchange for doing dirty work for them. Think of it as picking up trash from alongside the road when you are in jail. The Doctor was allowed some measure of freedom, as well as his companions. He was able to travel with Victoria and Jaimie and maybe others to a limited degree, knowing their memories would be erased eventually.

Is it sloppy writing? Yes, to a certain extent. It was more a different world, pre-information age, where the slightest inconsistency is frowned upon. They probably forgot half the stuff they wrote themselves, and seeing as the BBC deleted over the other half...

I guess at a certain point you have to ask yourself if your problem is a minor detail or a major one. It's like people who still make endless threads about O'brien's rank or Sisko's dad. It's a goof, and a minor one, and it isn't the heart of the story. Focus on the big picture.

 

[Sindatur]

They granted the 2nd Doctor and his companions continued travel through space and time after his sentence in exchange for doing dirty work for them. Think of it as picking up trash from alongside the road when you are in jail. The Doctor was allowed some measure of freedom, as well as his companions. He was able to travel with Victoria and Jaimie and maybe others to a limited degree, knowing their memories would be erased eventually.

Ah, OK, so the theory says, he earned "X" time traveling adventures from his CIA(?) work, and he used those for whatever companion happened to have the time for more adventures right when he "whirred" in, rather than simply continuing on with Jamie/Zoe as he was on his way to drop them off.

I never thought of the Dr hopping around, picking companions for his "earned" adventures, sloppy writing as it is, it is a very good theory to explain the discrepancy canonically.

 

[Bacl]

They granted the 2nd Doctor and his companions continued travel through space and time after his sentence in exchange for doing dirty work for them. Think of it as picking up trash from alongside the road when you are in jail. The Doctor was allowed some measure of freedom, as well as his companions. He was able to travel with Victoria and Jaimie and maybe others to a limited degree, knowing their memories would be erased eventually.

Ah, OK, so the theory says, he earned "X" time traveling adventures from his CIA(?) work, and he used those for whatever companion happened to have the time for more adventures right when he "whirred" in, rather than simply continuing on with Jamie/Zoe as he was on his way to drop them off.

I never thought of the Dr hopping around, picking companions for his "earned" adventures, sloppy writing as it is, it is a very good theory to explain the discrepancy canonically.

You're over thinking it.

The writers, as was common of that era, were under thinking it.

Bad combination.