TWOK questions

[balls]

A couple of questions (that have probably been answered before). During Spock's funeral, as the torpedo glides toward the chute, there's a guy in uniform with white accents- like a captain or admiral's uniform. Were there 3 captains on board the Enterprise?

Also, is there any reason that Regula was never considered for the 3rd stage of the Genesis testing? It was a lifeless rock and it was right next to Regula 1. That might be the problem. Ultimately, it was used, but not on purpose.

And, Regula 1 was destroyed by Genesis, right?

 

[Vance]

A couple of questions (that have probably been answered before). During Spock's funeral, as the torpedo glides toward the chute, there's a guy in uniform with white accents- like a captain or admiral's uniform. Were there 3 captains on board the Enterprise?

The 'white accents' doesn't indicate rank, just department. TWOK isn't very clear (or consistent) on what the accent colors mean, however.

Also, is there any reason that Regula was never considered for the 3rd stage of the Genesis testing? It was a lifeless rock and it was right next to Regula 1. That might be the problem. Ultimately, it was used, but not on purpose.

I got the impression that mass was a problem for the full-planet conversion. Regula 1 just wasn't big enough. The TWOK novelization actually goes down a checklist of what's required, which is why the Reliant is having such a hard time with the mission.

And, Regula 1 was destroyed by Genesis, right?

No indication of that. It was next to the Nebula, but not in it, obviously.

 

[Finn]

And, Regula 1 was destroyed by Genesis, right?

If the Enterprise had to warp away to avoid being destroyed (they reached the nebula by impulse power) I'd say yes.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

The 'white accents' doesn't indicate rank, just department. TWOK isn't very clear (or consistent) on what the accent colors mean, however.

I think it's pretty clear. White is command, the purplish grey is sciences (communications falls under this), yellow is services (engineering & helm), green is medical, and red indicates cadets. I forget what color security was.

 

[balls]

The 'white accents' doesn't indicate rank, just department. TWOK isn't very clear (or consistent) on what the accent colors mean, however.

I think it's pretty clear. White is command, the purplish grey is sciences (communications falls under this), yellow is services (engineering & helm), green is medical, and red indicates cadets. I forget what color security was.

With SciFy's marathon this weekend, I decided to go throught the dvds to watch the movies. I'll keep an eye on the white ones. I just don't recall seeing anyone else lower than a captain ever wearing the white.

 

[MLJames]

As near as I can make out, after multiple zooms and frame-by-frames, it looks like he's got a two-piece rank pin on his sleeve (making him a lieutenant like Saavik). On the white band below his rank pin, he's got 1 bar and two round pips. If Shane Johnson was right in his guide to the Enterprise, this would mean the officer's been on active duty for 7 years. What a 7-year Lt. in the command division does is anybody's guess.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

A couple of questions (that have probably been answered before). During Spock's funeral, as the torpedo glides toward the chute, there's a guy in uniform with white accents- like a captain or admiral's uniform. Were there 3 captains on board the Enterprise?

The 'white accents' doesn't indicate rank, just department. TWOK isn't very clear (or consistent) on what the accent colors mean, however.

Robert Fletcher actually came up with a detailed and complex set of rules — much like the modern military —for the division colors. And on TWOK to TVH that was fairly consistent and adhered to by the costuming department. However, on TFF and TUC is when things weren't consistent (Valeris' uniform for example) since Fletcher was no longer the costume designer on the films.

Fletcher's department breakdown and color scheme can be viewed here.

The 'white accents' doesn't indicate rank, just department. TWOK isn't very clear (or consistent) on what the accent colors mean, however.

I think it's pretty clear. White is command, the purplish grey is sciences (communications falls under this), yellow is services (engineering & helm), green is medical, and red indicates cadets. I forget what color security was.

With SciFy's marathon this weekend, I decided to go throught the dvds to watch the movies. I'll keep an eye on the white ones. I just don't recall seeing anyone else lower than a captain ever wearing the white.

See link above. The command corps is made up of more than those folks with a Captain's rank or a command billet.

Command division includes both line and staff officers and all personnel, both enlisted and commissioned of the following corps:
Administration
Base Operations
Fleet Operations
Personnel
Colonial Operations
General Accounting
Accountants
Pay Masters
Budget Analysis
Logistic Support
Store Keepers
Resources
Supply Analysis
Technological Support
Basic Research
Energy
Planetary Facilities
Strategy + Tactics
Requirements + Plans
Exploration + Survey
Inspector General
Adjutant General
Judges
Dept. of Space Safety
Security
Intelligence
Planetary Relations
Special Diplomatic Corps
Translators
Fleet Archives + Records
Fleet Academy

As near as I can make out, after multiple zooms and frame-by-frames, it looks like he's got a two-piece rank pin on his sleeve (making him a lieutenant like Saavik). On the white band below his rank pin, he's got 1 bar and two round pips. If Shane Johnson was right in his guide to the Enterprise, this would mean the officer's been on active duty for 7 years. What a 7-year Lt. in the command division does is anybody's guess.

Unfortunately, Shane Johnson wasn't entirely accurate in his guide to the uniforms.

Here's an accurate breakdown on the decorations on the arm band.

 

[Expo67]

I always wondered why Valeris' uniform was inconsistent.

 

[balls]

Watching TSFS right now (like I did in 1984 when I was 15). Okay, Rand has the white accents, as does Adm. Morrow's assistant, Saavik (how could I have forgotten) and the Excelsior's navigator! Yup, all not captains. Yet Scotty does have the captain's rank pin with the gold accents. I've seen these movies at least 50 times, you'd think I'd remember this stuff.

 

[balls]

Why not give Takei the white accents? Granted, Sulu was a commander, but they filmed a scene where he's being promoted to captain the Excelsior.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Why not give Takei the white accents? Granted, Sulu was a commander, but they filmed a scene where he's being promoted to captain the Excelsior.

Because he wasn't a Captain yet. Kirk cut the orders, but Sulu's promotion hadn't happened yet. And since those lines were cut out of the film, it never officially happened.

 

[balls]

Why not give Takei the white accents? Granted, Sulu was a commander, but they filmed a scene where he's being promoted to captain the Excelsior.

Because he wasn't a Captain yet. Kirk cut the orders, but Sulu's promotion hadn't happened yet. And since those lines were cut out of the film, it never officially happened.

I guess that if they had other people (like the guy I mentioned in my original post) who were in the command tract that had the white accents, why wouldn't Sulu had been in that mix if the original script had him up for a promotion? From a real life perspective, would have it been too confusing to have the 2 leads and a supporting cast member with the same uniform?

 

[Vance]

I guess that if they had other people (like the guy I mentioned in my original post) who were in the command tract that had the white accents, why wouldn't Sulu had been in that mix if the original script had him up for a promotion?

Because he hadn't been promoted yet. Simple as that. You don't give a guy a new uniform and his rank beads until after he gets the orders, ya know...

 

[balls]

I guess that if they had other people (like the guy I mentioned in my original post) who were in the command tract that had the white accents, why wouldn't Sulu had been in that mix if the original script had him up for a promotion?

Because he hadn't been promoted yet. Simple as that. You don't give a guy a new uniform and his rank beads until after he gets the orders, ya know...

I get that he hadn't been promoted. And I would agree with you that he shouldn't until he's made captain.

Let me put it this way, was Commander Sulu in the command tract, working his way to being a captain? If so, why is he different from the guy in the torpedo bay in TWOK or Saavik and Excelsior navigator from TSFS? All of them had white but were not captains.

 

[Vance]

Let me put it this way, was Commander Sulu in the command tract, working his way to being a captain? If so, why is he different from the guy in the torpedo bay in TWOK or Saavik and Excelsior navigator from TSFS? All of them had white but were not captains.

Tough to say. Sulu started off in TOS in the sciences, with the helm (or nav, depending on the episode) being his bridge position. If you just pay attention to what's on screen, he never seems to be in any way on a 'command track' until he's actually captain.

Chekov shows more career ambition in that direction, even by the time of TWOK, where he's Reliant's second-in-command. Sulu? He's a cadet trainer.

 

[balls]

I guess I always considered him in the command tract for no other reason than, the gold shirts meant command (Franz Joseph Tech manual) and Kirk wore gold as well. You're absolutely right about there being nothing on screen to point to his "command" goal.

It would seem as though that the promotion of Sulu (if not edited out of TWOK) would have been something that would have been in the works for some time. If that were the case, why not have him in the white with the commander pin? I'm not in the military so I don't know if there's a real life timeframe for someone to be given command of a ship. With the scene edited out, we don't see him captain until much later. Sure, plenty of things could have put him on the command tract at that time.

Like a lot of things on this board, we try to make sense out of stuff that happened on a soundstage in southern california 30 years ago. Sometimes, there is no sense to be made. In TSFS, Scotty is promoted to Captain, yet retains the gold accents. Is that because he's captain of engineering only?

 

[MLJames]

Chekov was first officer of the Reliant, yet he wasn't wearing command white either. Sulu could very well have held a similar position on his last ship. To be honest, I think the movies should have kept helm and navigation in the command division in the first place.

There's nothing wrong with Scotty having captain's rank and still wearing engineering colors. Captain's rank isn't restricted to ship commanders, after all. As far as I'm concerned, by the time the TOS movies ended, McCoy should have been bumped up to captain as well, given his time in grade.

 

[balls]

Chekov was first officer of the Reliant, yet he wasn't wearing command white either. Sulu could very well have held a similar position on his last ship. To be honest, I think the movies should have kept helm and navigation in the command division in the first place.

There's nothing wrong with Scotty having captain's rank and still wearing engineering colors. Captain's rank isn't restricted to ship commanders, after all. As far as I'm concerned, by the time the TOS movies ended, McCoy should have been bumped up to captain as well, given his time in grade.

It's odd: Whenever Scotty is in his regular uniform, he has the gold undershirt. Yet when he wears his engineer's vest, he's always got the white undershirt. I'm guessing because it looks better(?) on screen that way. In TUC Scotty's wearing the vest during the battle with Chang, then he beams down to Khitomer in his regular uniform. Then back to the ship with his vest and white turtleneck. The guy changes more than Cher.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Chekov was first officer of the Reliant, yet he wasn't wearing command white either.

I think that this is because Chekov didn't become first officer of the Reliant until post-production. Supposedly Walter Koenig campaigned for that and they added "First Officer Pavel Chekov reporting" to the log entry at the beginning of the film.

 

[Timo]

Also, is there any reason that Regula was never considered for the 3rd stage of the Genesis testing? It was a lifeless rock and it was right next to Regula 1. That might be the problem. Ultimately, it was used, but not on purpose.

Might be that the Stage 2 test had already contaminated Regula 1 too badly; it would no longer be as lifeless as required for a valid demonstration.

Or then the team just didn't want to lose the results of Stage 2 in doing Stage 3.

And, Regula 1 was destroyed by Genesis, right?

For all we know, Regula 1 became the Genesis Planet. After all, the Genesis device was programmed to turn a dead planet into a living one, and Regula 1 was the only dead'ish planet anywhere near as far as we know. It sounds quite unlikely that the Genesis device could have converted something like the Mutara Nebula into the eventual planet, against its original programming, as the expert Marcuses seemed to agree that the device had no flexibility of programming ("couldn't cram another byte into it") and Khan had no reason to tamper with the programming anyway.

If warp drive was an absolute necessity for escaping the effects of the Genesis detonation, then Regula 1 would obviously have been well within the range of those effects, as the detonation happened aboard a ship that had traveled from Regula 1 to the detonation location at impulse...

Timo Saloniemi