Why does the Federation make such bad treaties?

[The Overlord]

Why does the Federation make such bad treaties? They made a peace treaty with the Cardassians that the Cardassians did not honor and resulted in several Federation citizens turning to terrorism to prevent Cardassian attacks on homes. They made a treaty with the Romulans that disallowed them from using cloaking technology and resulted in a peace treaty that Romulans would undermine when ever they felt like it.

Sometimes it seems like the Federation is run by Neville Chamberlain, who will do anything to ensure "peace in our times" no matter how unjust that peace is or how much bad faith the other party puts forward. War is bad, but sometimes a war is better then a corrupt and unjust peace.

 

[Paradon]

They should never have made any treaty if the other party is not going to honor it. It's like making a deal with thugs, which you never want to do. Nothing good can come from it.... they know they would take advantage of the situation and in the real world the Federation would been overrun already. We should not honor any treaty with an attitude like that, only when the other party is serious about peace. Otherwise, they are going to take advantage of you anyway. It's common sense. That is why prosecutors never rely on the words of the thugs as facts and use them as a sole eye witness, unless they have other clear evidence beyound reasonable doubt to support it.

 

[Ratpelt]

I kind of like the idea that the Federation, being primarily concerned with exploration, view cloaking devices as something of an underhand technology only really useful for suprise attacks and espionage. Also, by the time the treaty was signed, cloaked ships *could* be detected by various means, so presumably they thought that whatever concessions the Romulans made in return were of greater value.

As for not protecting the colonies from Cardassian incursions, there isn't really any excuse that doesn't leave the Federation looking either weak or callous.

 

[MacLeod]

Wasn't part of the issue with Federation-Cardassian treaty that led to the DMZ that several worlds swapped ownership. So some federation citizens found themselves on plants ceded to the Cardassaisn and decided against relocation.

as for the cloaking device ban in the Treaty of Algeron, we don't know the exact state of play when it was signed, was the Federation in a condition to fight a Also as others have mentioned we don't know what the Federation got in return.war?

 

[Captain Verata]

Why does the Federation make such bad treaties?

The plot demands it so they can have drama.

But seriously though... We don't know the full treaty with the Romulans all the deals involved. Romulans could have given up some big deal things. Besides, the Federation doesn't suprise attack people. The Romulan cloaking devices seem to have certain life span before Federation tech reaches up to be detect them readily. Also, Klingons got cloaking, so for those rare cases in need for cloaking abilities, they have them.

As with the Cardassians, it was a bad deal that doesn't happen often if ever. I have feeling the Federation was desperate to end certain conflicts so they prepare for another Borg attack and a possible Romulan attack. Seemed like the Cardassian Border War was mostly annoying conflict that was only bleeding off resources. Why not just get rid of some relatively useless colonies(in the grand scheme of UFP) for overall strategic gain. Too bad the colonists loved their home and the Cardassians Union is treacherous as the Romulans. I think the Federation should have renegotiated the treaty after the first couple of times of treachery.

 

[Anwar]

The Fed-Cardassian Treaty allowed mutual switching of worlds. The Feds got plenty of Cardie worlds in the exchange, they just never focused any stories on them.

The Romulan Treaty is only 50% defined, we know the Feds gave up cloaks (but not anti-cloak countermeasures) but what we DON'T know is what the Romulans gave up. We never saw them use those powerful plasma torpedoes again so maybe they were banned too.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Why does the Federation make such bad treaties? They made a peace treaty with the Cardassians that the Cardassians did not honor and resulted in several Federation citizens turning to terrorism to prevent Cardassian attacks on homes. They made a treaty with the Romulans that disallowed them from using cloaking technology and resulted in a peace treaty that Romulans would undermine when ever they felt like it.

Sometimes it seems like the Federation is run by Neville Chamberlain, who will do anything to ensure "peace in our times" no matter how unjust that peace is or how much bad faith the other party puts forward. War is bad, but sometimes a war is better then a corrupt and unjust peace.

I think this is exactly it: they believe that the way to pacify aggressors is to roll over and give them what they want. As if saying "pretty please" enough times is going to get them to stop! Sometimes a cold war is the best situation you can get, until a regime collapses.

 

[The Overlord]

Wasn't part of the issue with Federation-Cardassian treaty that led to the DMZ that several worlds swapped ownership. So some federation citizens found themselves on plants ceded to the Cardassaisn and decided against relocation.

Yeah and the Cardassian government launched attacks against the Federation citizens in DMZ before the ink even dried on the treaty, so clearly it is a bad treaty. Why did you think the Maquis came into existence in the first place? If the Federation was treating the Cardassian colonists well and the cardassian government was doing everything short of a full scale conflict to drive the Federation colonists out of the DMZ, that makes this treaty seem more corrupt and one sided, not less.

as for the cloaking device ban in the Treaty of Algeron, we don't know the exact state of play when it was signed, was the Federation in a condition to fight a Also as others have mentioned we don't know what the Federation got in return.war?

I think the treaty was part of the reason the Roumlans went into isolation between TOS and TNG eras, so the Romulans made a token attempt to honor it for a while. However as soon as they came in the TNG the Roumulans made several attempts to provoke the Federation. It seems like after the Romualns tried to invade Vulcan, the Federation would went to renegotiate this treaty, they could have used the threat from withdrawing from this treaty as a diplomatic stick to deal with the Romulans constant provocations.

 

[Anwar]

The Feds then put an end to the Cardassian weapon shipments, but the Maquis continued their campaign. It was sort of a murky situation since we don't know what happened to the Cardassian DMZ shipments, if they got more weapons or anything.

 

[The Overlord]

The Feds then put an end to the Cardassian weapon shipments, but the Maquis continued their campaign. It was sort of a murky situation since we don't know what happened to the Cardassian DMZ shipments, if they got more weapons or anything.

How much did the Cardassian authorities ever do protect Federation colonists from Cardassian paramilitary groups, even if they were no longer arming them, even though it seems dubious that Cardies ever completely stopped the flow of weapons heading into the DMZ? Unless the Cardassian government was taking step to stop the Cardassian colonists from harassing the Federation colonists, they are not honoring the treaty.

The fact that Cardassian government were supplying the paramilitary groups in the first place, would mean I wouldn't trust them at all if I lived in the DMZ.

 

[Anwar]

The DMZ wasn't the property of either side, it was meant to be its own place. A zone that just happened to be inhabited, so it wouldn't have been the place of the Cardie Government to stop their colonists from doing anything to the Feds in there.

It's really a big mess, since the show was never consistent on whether the DMZ inhabitants were still citizens of the Federation and Cardassian or if they weren't and now neutral.

Or if the DMZ was a neutral area for both sides, or the property of Cardassia.

 

[The Overlord]

The DMZ wasn't the property of either side, it was meant to be its own place. A zone that just happened to be inhabited, so it wouldn't have been the place of the Cardie Government to stop their colonists from doing anything to the Feds in there.

It's really a big mess, since the show was never consistent on whether the DMZ inhabitants were still citizens of the Federation and Cardassian or if they weren't and now neutral.

Or if the DMZ was a neutral area for both sides, or the property of Cardassia.

Except the Cardassians were treating it like it was their property and doing everything they could get the Federation colonists out, so clearly they saw it as their property and felt they could do whatever they wanted to the Federation colonists. So that was the objective of the treaty, then it still fails. I think when the Cardassian authorities are helping mobs kill Federation colonists, then clearly one side is not honoring this treaty at all. heck the fact that the Cardassian government was supplying their colonists weapons at all, should have made the treaty null and void.

Also what evidence is there that the colonists are not Federation citizens. When the Maquis were attacking a Cardassian warship in the Preemptive Strike, Picard hailed them and asked to stop on the basis they were Federation citizens.


Lets not forget in the Wound and Chain of commands the Cardassians were planing military strikes against the Federation, so it seems like the Cardassian government disregards this treaty all the time, making it completely worthless.

 

[Captain Verata]

^ Exactly. Starfleet should have pwned their asses away from the border after numerous of times they didn't care about the treaty. Then as an infamous traitor Admiral once said "We'll be in far better position to dictate terms."

 

[Paradon]

I don't understand what gives the Federation the rights to give away the colonists' home in the first place, making it seems as if the Fed owns the planets. It seems like the Native Americans are treated like trash now and then...like their opinions doesn't matter. I thought the idea of democracy is having everyone's voice heard, even the minorities. Minority rights and freedom to do as they please are just as important as anyone else.

 

[Anwar]

Except the Cardassians were treating it like it was their property and doing everything they could get the Federation colonists out, so clearly they saw it as their property and felt they could do whatever they wanted to the Federation colonists.

Which is where the writers screwed up. By definition the DMZ doesn't belong to either side, it was a neutral area of space.

But if the Cardies were harassing the Fed citizens who lived on their side, there wouldn't have been anything the Feds could do to help them.

Also what evidence is there that the colonists are not Federation citizens. When the Maquis were attacking a Cardassian warship in the Preemptive Strike, Picard hailed them and asked to stop on the basis they were Federation citizens.

"Journey's End" in TNG said that anyone staying on their worlds after the Treaty would either renounce their Fed citizenship or become Cardassian subjects. Eddington acts like the DMZ worlds have nothing to do with the Feds.

Lets not forget in the Wound and Chain of commands the Cardassians were planing military strikes against the Federation, so it seems like the Cardassian government disregards this treaty all the time, making it completely worthless.

But they still didn't actually violate the treaty in plain view, exposed for all to see.

 

[Distorted Humor]

Peace for our time baby!

 

[The Overlord]

Except the Cardassians were treating it like it was their property and doing everything they could get the Federation colonists out, so clearly they saw it as their property and felt they could do whatever they wanted to the Federation colonists.

Which is where the writers screwed up. By definition the DMZ doesn't belong to either side, it was a neutral area of space.

No it makes sense, the Cardassian government is an aggressive, expansionist, militaristic, imperialistic regime, of course they DMZ as their property, if the treaty says otherwise they were lying when they signed. The fact that Federation thinks a government that commits genocide doesn't buy into this idea of sharing the DMZ seems foolish on the Federation's part. If the Cardassisn government is willing to commit genocide, then clearly lying is not beneath them.

But if the Cardies were harassing the Fed citizens who lived on their side, there wouldn't have been anything the Feds could do to help them.

If that's the case then the Federation would have no responsibility to reign in the Maquis, because if there were not Federation citizens, then would have no control over their actions and the Cardassian government couldn't complain to Federation about the maquis, saying they are endangering the peace treaty, clearly that is not the case.

Then its a bad treaty if the Cardassians were allowed to murder these colonists and then complain to the federation that coloinsts have the gall to defend to themselves. The whole treaty boils down to the Federation has to follow it all the time and the Cardassians can ignore or invoke it whenever they feel like it. None of your justifications have changed that.

Also what evidence is there that the colonists are not Federation citizens. When the Maquis were attacking a Cardassian warship in the Preemptive Strike, Picard hailed them and asked to stop on the basis they were Federation citizens.

"Journey's End" in TNG said that anyone staying on their worlds after the Treaty would either renounce their Fed citizenship or become Cardassian subjects. Eddington acts like the DMZ worlds have nothing to do with the Feds.

Then why did Picard say they were citizens in Preemptive Strike, why was the Federation so determined to bring them to heel if they were not Federation citizens. Heck why was the Cardassian government complaining to the Federation about the Maquis if they were not Federation citizens. If they were not Federation citizens, the Federation have no responsibility to stop the Maquis, clearly they do, so they are citizens.

Lets not forget in the Wound and Chain of commands the Cardassians were planing military strikes against the Federation, so it seems like the Cardassian government disregards this treaty all the time, making it completely worthless.

But they still didn't actually violate the treaty in plain view, exposed for all to see.

There was plenty of circumstantial evidence in Chain of Command and the wounded. It would be like assuming the USSR isn't being threatening by putting nuclear weapons in Cuba.

They were both actions of bad faith by behalf of the Cardassian government. They kidnapped and tortured a federation citizen after intentionally luring the federation there with stories of WMDs, these are actions of extreme bad faith. A treaty is worthless if one side constantly shows bad faith to it.

 

[sonak]

I don't understand what gives the Federation the rights to give away the colonists' home in the first place, making it seems as if the Fed owns the planets. It seems like the Native Americans are treated like trash now and then...like their opinions doesn't matter. I thought the idea of democracy is having everyone's voice heard, even the minorities. Minority rights and freedom to do as they please are just as important as anyone else.

uh, because those colonists were citizens of the Federation, and therefore Federation governing decisions are binding upon them. Have you ever heard of eminent domain?

the Native American example in the episode was just a PC smokescreen. The original treatment of American Indians was due to a desire for conquest on the part of settlers. In the Federation's case, they weren't trying to conquer the colonists, they were just trying to negotiate a treaty involving territorial swaps.


If the Israelis negotiated a peace settlement with the Palestinians involving turning over the West Bank, you don't think that the government of Israel would be within its rights to ensure that settlers in the West Bank evacuated to ensure compliance with the treaty?


minority rights must be safeguarded to an extent, but you can't have fanatical minorities refusing to abide by a government decision every time they don't like it.


See U.S. History and the Nullification Crisis.

 

[CoveTom]

I kind of like the idea that the Federation, being primarily concerned with exploration, view cloaking devices as something of an underhand technology only really useful for suprise attacks and espionage.

I don't know that I buy that. Sure, cloaking technology is used for surprise attacks and espionage. But is that it's only use? I can think of others.

For example, we've seen that the Federation is interested in learning about more primitive worlds, but wants to keep their existence secret. Suppose they want to learn about a planet that is at the 2011 Earth level of technology. Well, we certainly are nowhere near Starfleet's level of technology, but we would easily spot a ship that flew into our solar system or entered orbit. Unless Starfleet was content to do nothing but long range scans, they'd almost have to have cloaking devices to investigate planets with any level of technological development at all, wouldn't they?

 

[Paradon]

I don't understand what gives the Federation the rights to give away the colonists' home in the first place, making it seems as if the Fed owns the planets. It seems like the Native Americans are treated like trash now and then...like their opinions doesn't matter. I thought the idea of democracy is having everyone's voice heard, even the minorities. Minority rights and freedom to do as they please are just as important as anyone else.

uh, because those colonists were citizens of the Federation, and therefore Federation governing decisions are binding upon them. Have you ever heard of eminent domain?

the Native American example in the episode was just a PC smokescreen. The original treatment of American Indians was due to a desire for conquest on the part of settlers. In the Federation's case, they weren't trying to conquer the colonists, they were just trying to negotiate a treaty involving territorial swaps.


If the Israelis negotiated a peace settlement with the Palestinians involving turning over the West Bank, you don't think that the government of Israel would be within its rights to ensure that settlers in the West Bank evacuated to ensure compliance with the treaty?


minority rights must be safeguarded to an extent, but you can't have fanatical minorities refusing to abide by a government decision every time they don't like it.


See U.S. History and the Nullification Crisis.

If the colonists were there first before the Federation even took the system in as their protectorate, then the colonists have the rights not to have their home handed over to the Cardassians like they didn't own it. It was the same thing they did to the Indians ages ago. They slowly pushed them out of their land like their opinions didn't matter...like they are some sort of naive savages who needed the U.S. government to show them how they should behave. They forced them to practice farming and put them on reservations against their will just like the Federation were doing to them on TNG. The Fed have moral superiority over the Indians which are according to them should abide by whatever decisions the Fed made, which is how the American government still thinks till this day about the Indians. American government which assumed moral superiority over the native Americans couldn't be more wrong. They never harm any settlers and they sure did give them one hell of a kick ass when they had to fight, which really surprised the U.S. armies which I think are not at all that surprising...seeing they repeated their mistake again in Vietnam...assumed that the enemies are inferiors and got their asses whooped badly, which is a constant embarassment for the U.S., and til this day they can't admit they got their asses whooped really badly by a bunch of people that used outdated weapons.