AAARRRGGGHHH!!! Star Trek: Voyager: Children of the Storm (ePub)

[Admiral James Kirk]

I bought Q-Squared a few weeks ago and was surprised at all the typos in that sucker. I let it go though. I just plain loved the book. NY is still getting the whole ebook business figured out and I trust that they'll go back and correct their mistakes in time.

You must be dreaming! You think once S&S gets your money they care enough to fix their product? Not a chance!

Sorry to hear about further epub problems. Glad I bought the paperback!

Kevin

Yeah, I realize now how naive that was. What can I say? Indie authors fix their work after the fact, I guess I thought the big boys would be professional enough to do the same. Silly me. How long have I worked in corporate American now?

 

[Christopher]

For the life of me, I can't see what's wrong with the "uncorrected" text JWolf posted. Sure, it uses online-style formatting with line breaks between paragraphs instead of indentations, and it's in a different font, but that's just style. The actual content doesn't seem to have any problems.

 

[Admiral James Kirk]

It's not so bad, Christopher. I think folks just want something a little closer to what they would get in a printed novel. I can't say I blame 'em. I'm not fond of the online style. Besides that style would probably be a pain in the butt for people who read in large print. They're already getting big enough gaps between words. With this style they're getting chasms.

 

[Christopher]

^Okay, but if it's simply a matter of taste, it seems like an overreaction to talk about it as though it's some kind of gross negligence or technical error.

 

[Admiral James Kirk]

You're right. It's not really a big deal. The typos in my book were more annoying. But that didn't ruin the book for me. It would drive other folks batshit crazy, though.

 

[JWolf]

For the life of me, I can't see what's wrong with the "uncorrected" text JWolf posted. Sure, it uses online-style formatting with line breaks between paragraphs instead of indentations, and it's in a different font, but that's just style. The actual content doesn't seem to have any problems.

Having looked at the CSS, the second sample is how it should look. The first sample is hard to read actually. The lack of indents and the large space between paragraphs draws the eye away from the story.

The second sample looks nicer and it a lot easier to read. The fonts are nicer and the italics are real.

As for the content, I'm not sure yet what mistakes it has. Most Trek eBooks these days have some sort of textual errors that are not in the pBook.

You're right. It's not really a big deal. The typos in my book were more annoying. But that didn't ruin the book for me. It would drive other folks batshit crazy, though.

The typos might not be enough to cause a problem, but the incorrect formatting really would be an issue.

 

[Idran]

For the life of me, I can't see what's wrong with the "uncorrected" text JWolf posted. Sure, it uses online-style formatting with line breaks between paragraphs instead of indentations, and it's in a different font, but that's just style. The actual content doesn't seem to have any problems.

Having looked at the CSS, the second sample is how it should look. The first sample is hard to read actually. The lack of indents and the large space between paragraphs draws the eye away from the story.

The second sample looks nicer and it a lot easier to read. The fonts are nicer and the italics are real.

As for the content, I'm not sure yet what mistakes it has. Most Trek eBooks these days have some sort of textual errors that are not in the pBook.

You're right. It's not really a big deal. The typos in my book were more annoying. But that didn't ruin the book for me. It would drive other folks batshit crazy, though.

The typos might not be enough to cause a problem, but the incorrect formatting really would be an issue.

I think you missed Steve Roby's question. It seems like a fair question for you to answer.

 

[Christopher]

Having looked at the CSS, the second sample is how it should look. The first sample is hard to read actually. The lack of indents and the large space between paragraphs draws the eye away from the story.

It's the standard format for electronic text. I've read many stories in that format; I've had a couple of my own stories published in that format. Sure, I found it a little off-putting at first, but I've long since adjusted. Given what an avid eBook reader you seem to be, I'm surprised you're not used to it.

And I can't help noticing that it's the same format you use for your own posts, that most of use as a matter of course. Do you find this BBS hard to read?

The second sample looks nicer and it a lot easier to read. The fonts are nicer and the italics are real.

I don't see what's unreal about the italics in the first version. At least they're recognizable as italics, and surely that's all that matters.

The typos might not be enough to cause a problem, but the incorrect formatting really would be an issue.

I think you've got that completely backwards. I'm upset when there are typos in my books (I'm still annoyed that a typo in my X-Men novel ruined a pun I really enjoyed), but I don't particularly care if the font or line spacing gets changed.

 

[beamMe]

I think you've got that completely backwards. I'm upset when there are typos in my books (I'm still annoyed that a typo in my X-Men novel ruined a pun I really enjoyed), but I don't particularly care if the font or line spacing gets changed.

I agree that the font isn't all that important - so long as it doesn't serve a dramatic purpose in the book (representing a computer-screen print-out or something similar), but those hideously large spaces between paragraphs not only look awful but they also break the flow of my reading, since they usually indicate a scene-change.

 

[23skidoo]

An eBook is a real book. It's just in a different container. It's just poorly put together. But at least I know what I am doing to be able to fix things.

It's not a book, it's a data file that requires the permission of a third party to view by way of their technology, their software, and - by the impression of this thread - their competence or lack thereof of programming said file.

Yes, there are printed books whose formatting sucks, too. But the issues don't seem to be as extreme as those described here.

Alex

 

[Christopher]

It's not a book, it's a data file that requires the permission of a third party to view by way of their technology, their software, and - by the impression of this thread - their competence or lack thereof of programming said file.

Yes, it is a book. The word "book" refers to the work itself, not the format in which it's published. In the past, books were contained on rolled parchment or wooden tablets or folded bark. The square-bound collection of pages that we think of as a "book" in modern times is actually called a codex, and it's simply one possible format in which a book can be printed. A book doesn't cease to be a book just because it's contained in a data file rather than a codex.

 

[Idran]

Interesting thing about the codex format, it was pretty widely dismissed when it first came about around the 1st century by most of the Roman upper class, where it first emerged. It wasn't until the 4th century that that format started to come to prominence for books over scrolls, because for whatever reason early Christian cults as far back as the 2nd century preferred codex format to scroll format, and that stayed true as Christianity grew in importance.

Not bringing it up out of comparison or anything, because it's only analogous in the most shallow and vaguest of senses; just always thought it a neat tidbit that the codex wasn't seen as some big revolution over the scroll but rather just a passing fad, and that it was only historical happenstance a whole three centuries after the form was even invented that it managed to become nearly the only form books and other written works were found in for millennia.

 

[JWolf]

Have any of the author's actually said anything to S&S about the quality of their eBooks and how poor they are? Your name is on this and while it is S&S who are to blame for the mess, you do get some of the blame too for allowing S&S to make such a botch job.

Authors only get that kind of blame from people who don't understand that authors have nothing at all to do with ebook production, and that their editors have nothing to do with ebook production. Considering how many times you've been told that, you really should know better by now. To say the authors "allow" this to happen is bullshit, and you've been told that before. You're blaming the wrong people. You're complaining to the wrong people. No matter how long you keep it up you won't get the results you want because you are complaining to people who have no power in this situation. Hell, how is blaming them, even in part, going to motivate them to do something for you that you already know they can't do? What's the point?

The author's name is what's on the eBook no matter who made it. I know the authors do not have anything to do with making the eBooks and any errors that are int he eBooks that they didn't make. But when your name is on a product regardless if you made it or not, I would think you would want to have it as good as it can be. I'm not blaming the authors. I'm trying to suggest that the authors talk to S&S to see if anything can be done to fix the state of Star trek eBooks. As it is right now, we (readers) do not have a way to contact S&S about this and I was hoping the authors might be able tell someone about this who might then be able to pass it on and so forth.

 

[JWolf]

Having looked at the CSS, the second sample is how it should look. The first sample is hard to read actually. The lack of indents and the large space between paragraphs draws the eye away from the story.

It's the standard format for electronic text. I've read many stories in that format; I've had a couple of my own stories published in that format. Sure, I found it a little off-putting at first, but I've long since adjusted. Given what an avid eBook reader you seem to be, I'm surprised you're not used to it.

And I can't help noticing that it's the same format you use for your own posts, that most of use as a matter of course. Do you find this BBS hard to read?

On a forum, this is the format. But an eBook doesn't have to be that format. I find the space between the paragraphs to be a problem. The lack of indents too. I find it off-putting enough to want to fix it. If I received a printed book that was formatted that way, I'd be returning to the shop I bought it from.

The second sample looks nicer and it a lot easier to read. The fonts are nicer and the italics are real.

I don't see what's unreal about the italics in the first version. At least they're recognizable as italics, and surely that's all that matters.

The italics in the first sample are just the letters slanted. This is what happens when you take a non-italic font and make it italics on the fly. The second sample has italics that are true italics. Some of the letters in the true italics are different then the non-italic version and they look nicer. The first sample's italics just don't look right.

The typos might not be enough to cause a problem, but the incorrect formatting really would be an issue.

I think you've got that completely backwards. I'm upset when there are typos in my books (I'm still annoyed that a typo in my X-Men novel ruined a pun I really enjoyed), but I don't particularly care if the font or line spacing gets changed.

[/quote]

I've noticed that most of the textual errors in the recent Star Trek eBooks are not in the author's text but caused by S&S when they make the eBook. Do you really want S&S making errors in your name? Well, when the eBook has your name on it and there are errors, I suspect a lot of people will blame the author. I know you didn't do it and that S&S did it. But still, others who don't know may.

Would it hurt anyone/anything if the authors mentioned the state of the eBooks to say the editor?

 

[Christopher]

On a forum, this is the format. But an eBook doesn't have to be that format. I find the space between the paragraphs to be a problem. The lack of indents too. I find it off-putting enough to want to fix it. If I received a printed book that was formatted that way, I'd be returning to the shop I bought it from.

The italics in the first sample are just the letters slanted. This is what happens when you take a non-italic font and make it italics on the fly. The second sample has italics that are true italics. Some of the letters in the true italics are different then the non-italic version and they look nicer. The first sample's italics just don't look right.

Well, clearly you're very, very picky about these things, but not everyone is going to react the same way. Most other people in this thread don't seem to be as upset about these matters as you are. You can't expect a publisher to bend over backward to accommodate you and you alone. Maybe you just need to learn to be less sensitive, to focus less on the way the letters are shaped and more on the actual story. Frankly I don't give a flying fig if the italics are "true" italics, whatever that means, or just slanted letters. Hell, I didn't even know there was a difference. Either way, it's recognizable which words are being emphasized. The meaning gets across, and that's what matters.

Do you really want S&S making errors in your name?

Of course not, but typos are an inescapable fact of publishing. Even with dozens of eyes going over a text over and over again, there are always going to be some errors that get through, and some new errors that are added with each new iteration of the process. And you have yet to show me that these eBooks actually do have a disproportionate number of actual errors compared to what a print book would have. You seem to be more upset about simple variations in font and formatting, things that aren't actually mistakes at all. What you denounce as laziness or incompetence seems to be mostly a difference in style between print and electronic formats. So frankly you're coming off as the J Who Cried Wolf, without a lot of credibility to your accusations of gross negligence. At this point I have no reason to believe that the eBook compilers are practicing less diligence than the typesetters and proofreaders for the physical books, since you haven't actually shown any evidence of that yet. (And please, if you do post any more screencaps, shrink them down so they don't stretch out the thread, or just post links.)

Would it hurt anyone/anything if the authors mentioned the state of the eBooks to say the editor?

As you've been told over and over again, the editor has no more control over that stage of the process than the writer does. You should know this by now. So why are you still asking this question?

 

[Idran]

Frankly I don't give a flying fig if the italics are "true" italics, whatever that means, or just slanted letters. Hell, I didn't even know there was a difference.

Just to clarify for him: What he means is the italics in the first example were made by just applying an algorithm to slant the letters arbitrarily, which can sometimes run into issues with letter kerning and the like; it can lead to ugly letter overlap, weird punctuation effects, or things like that. While the italics in the second example are an example of an italic font, a separate font designed distinct from but based on the original font. It's similar to how some fonts have "narrow" or "bold" versions as opposed to just applying a narrow or bold option in the word processor. Or how some typesetting has two-letter ligature characters for letter pairs like "fl" or "ll" in order to make them more aesthetically pleasing to the eye.

From a typesetting perspective, you would almost always want to use an italic font as opposed to just slanting the letters of a normal font. But like you've said, that's completely outside the purview of the author or editor, and I wouldn't say they would have any responsibility to that regard any more than they would have responsibility to speak with the typesetter for a physical book.

I can on some level see what JWolf is getting at. He just feels that S&S should put as much effort into their typesetting of eBooks as they do of physical books, and he doesn't feel that they do. (And as a very minor typesetting nerd myself, from the examples he posted I can somewhat see what he's getting at. The second certainly does look better to me than the former and from what he was saying, it was purely errors in the eBook CSS that kept it from being formatted in the second way anyway.) But he's just going about it in the wrong way, he should be contacting S&S direct over it.

 

[NotLKH]

JWolf,

I believe you have indicated that the issue is with the {included} css file provided with the ebook. S&S apparently provided code in the css file indicating formatting, however it is incorrectly tagged in the css so that the reader is not properly directed, therefore displaying the ebook in a way that is not intended by S&S.

Could you indicate an example of an improperly formatted line in the css, and what you've done to correct this? Then Christopher and everyone might see that they actually are mistakes.

 

[JD]

When it comes to all of this formatting stuff, as long as the words are readable I'm happy. E-books and E-Readers are still a new technology, so of course there are going be issues with them from time to time.

 

[Idran]

When it comes to all of this formatting stuff, as long as the words are readable I'm happy. E-books and E-Readers are still a new technology, so of course there are going be issues with them from time to time.

That depends on how generous you are with the term "new". eBooks in formats not very different from the formats we have now have been around for about 12 years; eBooks in any form, about 40 years. And there isn't really any new technology in eReaders either, it's essentially a fancy browser with extra book-related features when you get down to it.

 

[JWolf]

JWolf,

I believe you have indicated that the issue is with the {included} css file provided with the ebook. S&S apparently provided code in the css file indicating formatting, however it is incorrectly tagged in the css so that the reader is not properly directed, therefore displaying the ebook in a way that is not intended by S&S.

Could you indicate an example of an improperly formatted line in the css, and what you've done to correct this? Then Christopher and everyone might see that they actually are mistakes.

I'll post the original CSS and then you can download both and compare for yourself what I've done in the CSS.