Another Voyager 1st-time watch thread

[HoneyBLilly]

C/7 . . . . . Nothing expresses how lame that was and how sick I feel after watching those scenes. I actually have not watched "Endgame" all of the way through since it aired because of those scene, I have the times memorized so I know exactly what to skip.

But for this, they tried to mesh two well-received and celebrated episodes of Voyager "Timeless" as you said and "Dark Frontier," to make it work and it does in some areas, but doesn't in others.

I'm okay with the Admiral coming back in time to save Tuvok and Chakotay, I'm not okay with the Captain trying to pull the Temporal Prime Directive for a timeline that is now parallel to her own.

And how they got into the Borg Cube
JANEWAY: Mister Paris, prepare to adjust your heading.
PARIS[/B]: Yes, ma'am.

However, they never state that they are in the Borg Cube until Voyager shoots from it after destroying it.

My only complaint to this day, besides C/7, is I would like to know what happened to everyone else after thy got back to the Alpha Quadrant. The most you get is from Nemesis with Janeway being an Admiral.

Speaking of Nemesis, I did say lower expectations to the point even Nemesis would be Oscar-worthy.

And it has been fun, I shall miss this thread. And if you do start the DS9 one then I shall join that area.

 

[T.D. Possum]

Yeah, I think you summed it up pretty well, Shat. I don't hate "Endgame" like some people do, but it was rather underwhelming. Still, the only thing that really bugs me about it is that no one cheered or even smiled very much when they finally arrived home. Whatever, the writers were going for a "stunned" effect, but, really. Throw us a bone! Let's see a big, toothy Janeway smile like in "Bliss".

I must say I am going to miss reading your Voyager reviews. I appreciated your analysis - always thoughtful, never pedantic, and with funny opening lines, to boot. I do hope you'll stick with your idea of starting a review thread for DS9. Regardless, thanks for putting in the effort to required to run this thread. I had a great time reading and discussing with you and your regulars.

Here's to you, sir!

 

[exodus]

I liked "Endgame" up until the very end, it just seemed to leave you hanging.
Sure we've seen Janeway confront the Borg Queen before but this time it's Alice Krieg again, so IMO it's like they're meeting for the first time all over again.
So I can only assume the message is, it doesn't matter what happens to them going forward just so long as the all made it home together.

 

[Jetfire]

C/7= repeat those and finally

I enjoyed "Endgame" for the most part.

 

[Lord Manitou]

I can't see anything sick about the ep 'Endgame'. It is hard to believe an alternate Earth developed but the rest of it is really good Voyager and fun to watch. Voyager was tractored into the sphere's bay near ther end just before the unwary Borgs splattered through the barrier because they couldn't halt the kinetics of the ship. Tuvok then took advantage of the timing mechanisms of the sphere and turned it into a bomb with a torpedoe deep into its' innards. Fitting retribution for a deserving crew that may yet find a warm and happy life at home.

 

[Shatnertage]

Still, the only thing that really bugs me about it is that no one cheered or even smiled very much when they finally arrived home.

That was exactly my wife's reaction. Granted, Torres and Paris were pre-occupied, Tuvok isn't going to be that demonstrative, and Seven has nothing waiting for her, but they could have done something.

In my mind I see this scene:

They get to spacedock and Janeway officially logs the end to Voyager's assignment. They power down the bridge, and everyone says they're going their separate ways.

Cut to her ready room. She finishes recording her final log and leaves, making her way to the spacedock. Along the way, all 14? crewmembers line the hallways, weeping, thanking her for getting them back home safely. We see Tom, B'Elanna, and Miral; we see Tuvok, Seven, Harry, Chakotay, Ayala, Ashmore, and Samantha and NaomiWildman. Icheb, too--just everyone, showing their love and support for their captain.

There wouldn't be a dry eye in the house.

I'd follow that up with a one-year reunion scene, just to tie up the loose ends. But the emotional climax would the crew showing their devotion to their captain.

 

[T.D. Possum]

^ Awwww, that would be nice.

Or maybe a slo-mo shot of Kim, Paris, and Chak crash-hugging Janeway on the bridge while Tuvok and Seven exchange small not-quite-smiles.

Many possibilities.

You touched on the crux of the issue when you said the emotional climax should have been the crew showing their devotion to their captain - and their joy when she got them home. Instead, the emotional climax was when Voyager came bustin' out of the Borg sphere. Yes, that was totally bad ass, but Voyager (and the Enterprise) had already bested the Borg several times. On the other hand, our stranded crew finally reaching home was a unique experience. That is why the focus should have been there.

 

[Shatnertage]

Yes! "Set course for home" pretty much puts them back where they were at the end of "Caretaker." It should have been, "We're home!"

Here's a few comedy bits they could have worked in if they were doing a pseudo out-take reel during the closing credits.

1. The EMH says he'll finally be away from that chatterbox Ayala, who just never stops talking.

2. At a promotion ceremony, Janeway goes to place another pip on Kim's collar, then tosses it to Chakotay, who starts a game of keep-away, with poor Harry running from officer to officer.

3. A gag with Paris changing a particularly sloppy diaper, then saying to Torres, "Now that's a warp core breach."

4. Fun stuff with Icheb smarting off to his instructors at Starfleet Academy.

5. Harry finally beats Tuvok at Kal-Toh (sp?). Tuvok congratulates him for being the better man. Then, off camera, we hear Tuvok say, "Computer, end program." He quips, "That is the only logical way to get that outcome," and a sheepish-looking Harry is left sitting in the holodeck.

6. Just as Voyager blows up the Borg sphere, Q shows up with the mariachi band and cigars.

7. After her arm and leg fall off, the Borg Queen spits at Janeway and says, "It's only a flesh wound--come back and get what's coming to ya!" (honestly, that's what I thought when I saw it.)

 

[T.D. Possum]

^ I'd pay to see all that!

 

[froot]

^ Awwww, that would be nice.

Or maybe a slo-mo shot of Kim, Paris, and Chak crash-hugging Janeway on the bridge while Tuvok and Seven exchange small not-quite-smiles.

Many possibilities.

You touched on the crux of the issue when you said the emotional climax should have been the crew showing their devotion to their captain - and their joy when she got them home. Instead, the emotional climax was when Voyager came bustin' out of the Borg sphere. Yes, that was totally bad ass, but Voyager (and the Enterprise) had already bested the Borg several times. On the other hand, our stranded crew finally reaching home was a unique experience. That is why the focus should have been there.

Friends, can I just get an "amen?" Besides the problems I had with WHY Admiral Janeway messed with the timeline and the C/7, the lack of ending is what makes me hiss and spit over this episode. I like explosions and epic stuff, but it wasn't enough.

Shatnertage and Possum, both those ideas would have been fantastico (loved the idea for the "outtakes!!!") An emotional climax based on the whole family thing would have been sooo much better. Hence why I almost like "Homestead" as an ending versus "Endgame."

I mean, we got some absolutely killer moments - particularly that scene with AKJ and Tuvok, but nothing at the end! I loved these guys, man. I wanted to see what happened with them, not just their ship going from Point A to Point B. As my mother comments about this episode - it was like they made a delicious pie and then never allowed us to have any!

They should have ended with a MOVIE. I will say this forever. If I had a time machine...

As a sidenote, the novelization of "Endgame" actually had the folks on the ship breaking out in a cheer, a big ol' round of applause, and some raucous partying. I only skimmed the book, though, so I can't remember it all. If anyone finds it, though, it's probably worth a read as it's got some scenes that make it better than the episode.

Also, thanks for the ride, Shatnertage! You write beautifully and it was a lot of fun! You have a sense of humor and wit that reminded me a bit of Jim Wright's old VOY reviews. The added wife/child commentary was pretty awesome, too. If you review DS9, I'll be there!

 

[froot]

7. After her arm and leg fall off, the Borg Queen spits at Janeway and says, "It's only a flesh wound--come back and get what's coming to ya!" (honestly, that's what I thought when I saw it.)

 

[lurok]

As others have said, major suckage in Endgame is lack of emotional closure. I'm not the only fan who's thought one of the best scenes in ep is the brief one between Janeway and ailing Tuvok, because...well, we all know why. Though even that is over-written by changed timeline. VOY never got anything similar to the AGT end poker game, or WYLB bar scene and Kira/Odo great link. Other than your great suggestions . At least Neelix got a decent send-off!

Don't know about anyone else but aspect I've liked most about your reviews is understanding of character and inter-personal dynamics - the heart of show - as much as plot/tech, which I think other reviewers get a little too hung up on...so roll on DS9, which should provide character dynamics in spades

 

[Shatnertage]

Thanks, lurok, and everyone else who liked the reviews. For some reason the inter-personal stuff speaks to me more than the tech. Maybe it's just easier to relate to.

I'm definitely going to watch DS9 now, and will start a thread over there.

We watched most of the special features last night, and they were interesting. I loved the description of how they set up some of those shots in "Workforce," which is visually one of my favorite episodes.

Interesting hearing Robert Picardo talk about how he thought Neelix was the break-out part, and how he really didn't want the role of the humorless Doctor. He's right that he was great at doing both comedy and drama. And he doesn't seem to take himself too seriously, which is great. Suffice it to say that he seems to have a much better relationship with the writers than Robert Beltran.

Also funny hearing Rick Berman say pretty much what I said about how they had to face the Borg in the finale, though I still don't get the "Borg Trojan Horse" shot, which looked to me exactly like what it was--something they thought would look cool, but doesn't necessarily make a lot of sense.

Assuming they went with the idea that Voyager never made it home, I wonder what they would have done for a finale? Just shown Janeway giving up? That would have made TATV look like AGT!

They should have gone with the idea I had a while back that the entire show is the paranoid delusion of Harry Kim, who's just imagining that his first assignment is going to be awful, with the worst constantly happening to him.

As far as this thread goes, for me the moment that stand out most in my mind is our friendly disagreement over the white tux. For some reason I saw it being like that scene in "In and Out" where Kevin Kline and his buddy get into a serious fight over whether Barbra Streisand was too old to play Yentl. I see myself shouting, "It was too COSTUMEY! Like, the CIRCUS is in TOWN!" while being forcibly restrained.

I know that's going to earn me another screenshot of the white tux, and I probably deserve it.

I also really like getting feedback from other fans about the show. It's made me look at things I wouldn't have imagined, which is great.

 

[T.D. Possum]

 

[Shatnertage]

Studying it in closer detail, it's not white...it's ivory. And it doesn't seem to be a good fit!

Maybe I'll rent a white tux and see if I can approach her at the Vegas convention.

Seriously, I'm hoping to work on a piece for the weekly I write for that would profile one of the actors coming to the convention. I'd like to follow them around for a while and see what it's like being a Star Trek star in Las Vegas. I wanted to do this piece last year but I ended up doing a more overall look, with lots of different stories woven into one piece.

Any suggestions on who would be good to profile? I'd prefer it not be someone who's instantly recognizable (a la Shatner or Nimoy) but someone who's got an interesting story to tell. I wouldn't necessarily be talking to them about the show, but more about their experiences at the convention and what it's like "working Vegas."

I'll probably post this in GTD as I get closer, too. But I'd appreciate any advice you can offer.

 

[Athena28]

At long last my voyage has taken me to the...

"Endgame"

The show starts with Voyager doing some stunt-flying by the Golden Gate bridge, with a voiceover letting us know that the ship's been home for 10 years, and it took them 23 to get there...

I just couldn't get past the C/7 thing. It just felt so fake and forced. After all, he was the one who constantly mistrusted her.

Otherwise, I thought it was an ok final ep. I realize they're had to write so as this one went -- I gave it a passing grade.

Great work, Shatnertage. What show will you be doing next? Is it Enterprise or DS9?

 

[Athena28]

Studying it in closer detail, it's not white...it's ivory. And it doesn't seem to be a good fit!

Maybe I'll rent a white tux and see if I can approach her at the Vegas convention.

Seriously, I'm hoping to work on a piece for the weekly I write for that would profile one of the actors coming to the convention. I'd like to follow them around for a while and see what it's like being a Star Trek star in Las Vegas. I wanted to do this piece last year but I ended up doing a more overall look, with lots of different stories woven into one piece.

Any suggestions on who would be good to profile? I'd prefer it not be someone who's instantly recognizable (a la Shatner or Nimoy) but someone who's got an interesting story to tell. I wouldn't necessarily be talking to them about the show, but more about their experiences at the convention and what it's like "working Vegas."

I'll probably post this in GTD as I get closer, too. But I'd appreciate any advice you can offer.

Armin Shimerman is so nice. So is Max Grodenchik. I've seen them many times at cons. Either might let you shadow them for an article.

 

[Shatnertage]

Doing DS9 next--already Netflixed season 1--should be here tomorrow.

I had a great talk with Max Grodenchik last year--I only put a little of what we talked about in that piece I linked, but I had a good time hanging out with him. I ended up taking pictures for people who wanted them with him. And he asked me a ton of questions about Vegas--it was like he was interviewing me. Very cool guy, and really witty, too--very quick on his feet verbally.

 

[exodus]

Doing DS9 next--already Netflixed season 1--should be here tomorrow.

I had a great talk with Max Grodenchik last year--I only put a little of what we talked about in that piece I linked, but I had a good time hanging out with him. I ended up taking pictures for people who wanted them with him. And he asked me a ton of questions about Vegas--it was like he was interviewing me. Very cool guy, and really witty, too--very quick on his feet verbally.

Buy him a few drinks and he'll be your friend for life!

Some friends and I bought him a few rounds once.
Next thing we knew, he was joining us for dinner too.
I kid you not.

 

[exodus]

Studying it in closer detail, it's not white...it's ivory. And it doesn't seem to be a good fit!

Maybe I'll rent a white tux and see if I can approach her at the Vegas convention.

Seriously, I'm hoping to work on a piece for the weekly I write for that would profile one of the actors coming to the convention. I'd like to follow them around for a while and see what it's like being a Star Trek star in Las Vegas. I wanted to do this piece last year but I ended up doing a more overall look, with lots of different stories woven into one piece.

Any suggestions on who would be good to profile? I'd prefer it not be someone who's instantly recognizable (a la Shatner or Nimoy) but someone who's got an interesting story to tell. I wouldn't necessarily be talking to them about the show, but more about their experiences at the convention and what it's like "working Vegas."

I'll probably post this in GTD as I get closer, too. But I'd appreciate any advice you can offer.

Armin Shimerman is so nice. So is Max Grodenchik. I've seen them many times at cons. Either might let you shadow them for an article.

Ever see Armin do Poe's "The Tell Tale Heart"?

He very rarely does it but if you can really persuade him too, it's well worth it.