The Melting Pot

[DimesDan]

Isn't London soo diverse because the Queen's all like... Well we owe your people for rulling you like we did; I'm sure she has her own views of History.

Little lone our politicians being all like; You can live here if you're gonna get murdered at home for thinking/looking different.

And empire and asylumn aside, people do move here for skilled jobs anyway, from all over, because it's alright here.

That is the biggest pile of incomprehensible shite I've read in a while.

 

[iBender]

Yeah well, how else do you justify what I see when I go out to Tesco which is five minutes away by foot; In five minutes, I pass soo many faces and races that, I love it, but to do the math and averages; for per square mile, or twenty minutes -- I just don't want to think about calculating such a sum, but, then, I wonder, how do you explain the melting pot in London? Becuase I feel like I live on DS9 I jest .

 

[RJDiogenes]

What, that many American have substituted ethnic nationalism with political jingoism, which is almost as toxic?

Est modus in rebus. There is measure in all things.

I could make a comment about an American being unable to appreciate the difference between jingoism and identity, but I won't make it.

What I meant was that the same thing is true in America as in other countries: Certain unsavory elements have co-opted our symbols and slogans. More explicitly, the Right Wing has said, "We are going to take the icons of America and turn them into artifacts of religious oppression," and the Left Wing has said, "Duh, okay, we'll go along with that." And, anti-Americanism being all the fashion, many foreigners are very eager to accept this jingoism as an expression of a homogeneous American identity. In truth, these things are as untrue of Americans as of any other nationality, if not moreso.

 

[Pingfah]

Isn't London soo diverse because the Queen's all like... Well we owe your people for rulling you like we did; I'm sure she has her own views of History.

It doesn't matter what the Queen thinks, she doesn't set immigration policy and never has.

 

[Australis]

Where to start, where to start...

Okay, first off the word is 'so', not 'soo'.

Next, you've never been to Australia. Not only is this country based on immigration, we pride ourselves oin making it really work. On any night you can go down a street and pass restaurants and galleries displaying a huge range of culture from around the world. And read up on the Special Broadcast Service (www.sbs.com.au). I think it's unique in the world and I have watched some of the most amazing programmes there. Their news service is brilliant, because you don't just get the stories that concern 'us', but a whole plethora of other stuff. And I wish I spoke other languages, becuas they also have news broadcasts from other countries every day (Japan, China, Ukraine, France, Germany, etc, many others) including the US PBS Newshour. And the sexy French and Spanish programmes they show late at night, well, my goodness! And to add: the population of London is around 14 million. The population of all Australia is 22 million, and you'd have to agree that Australia punches well above its weight. In part that is due to multiculturalism, or if you like, the melting pot.

Should I point out the root word for parliament is French? Mm hmm.

Magna Carta. While it was a start to nobbling the power of a 'ruler by divine right', it took a while to trickle down to everyone else ('droit de siegneur' was still around then). As in a lot of things, I think Britain set an example, but everyone has added to it, and Britain has in thurn learned from that.

Your generalisations are very broad, your language odd, and your ultimate points unclear. not expressed in concise English, and good English is always about concision. Except in the hands of lawyers, but that's a different thread.

Do try harder, as a representative of your nation.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

The United States is definitely a Melting Pot, and I've been lucky enough to live and work in a very melty area. I've got friends of many ethnic groups and nationalities-- some are immigrants, some are first generation, some second et cetera-- and I know many people in so-called mixed marriages-- Thai-Jewish, Vietnamese-Irish and so on. Some stick mostly with their own traditional culture still, others have embraced the cultures of their partners or friends, others have embraced American culture in general to a greater or lesser degree. That's one of the great things about this country. Several of my friends have become citizens during the time I've known them, and as soon as they did they became just as American as me or anybody who can trace their ancestry back to the Revolution.

The Purple One is wise. One of my ancestors did fight in the Revolution - on both sides (long story but he ended up on the right side which is what counts) - but I grew up in California eating Mexican food and expecting pinatas at all my birthday parties and playing dress up with the well-used, tattered remnants my older sisters' magenta and turquoise Mexican peasant dresses that mom made for them before I was born, when the family lived in Arizona in a faux-adobe house my dad built from scratch. I never had any idea that as a technically Anglo little white kid, anything was unusual about any of it. It was just my culture and still is.

Then I grew up and found out people make a big fuss over this shit. So I adopted sci fi as my culture. Frak you!

What I meant was that the same thing is true in America as in other countries: Certain unsavory elements have co-opted our symbols and slogans. More explicitly, the Right Wing has said, "We are going to take the icons of America and turn them into artifacts of religious oppression," and the Left Wing has said, "Duh, okay, we'll go along with that." And, anti-Americanism being all the fashion, many foreigners are very eager to accept this jingoism as an expression of a homogeneous American identity. In truth, these things are as untrue of Americans as of any other nationality, if not moreso.

You're on a roll, but it's an unfair contest. After all, foreigners can't ever hope to understand America the way people who have been living here all our lives. Of course you'll make fools of them on a topic on which you've forgotten more than they could ever hope to know.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Being American or British is not about belonging to a certain group; it’s about believing in a certain set of ideals

Really? I know this about America - it's never been any different (clueless people have made a stupid fuss about it from time to time, but they've always been beaten out in the end) - but when did this become true of Britain? I suspect Obama was merely being polite with more than a touch of wishful thinking.

Being British has nothing to do with a "set of ideals". What ideals? Full breakfasts and Sunday roasts? Rights and laws, as we understand them, a a common heritage of all western democracies and their spin-offs. Rights and laws have nothing to do with being British, just as they have nothing to do with being French, or German, or Italian.

I gotta agree with this at least conditionally. I haven't seen evidence that many nations other than America and a few others have built their national identity on ideas while deliberately squelching any competing identity based on language, race, ethnicity or cultural attributes.

The "rights and laws" that are the underpinning of American national identity are not necessarily the underpinning of the identity of other nations that happen to have adopted them within the last century or so (it's far too generous to call them any sort of "common heritage" - I'd say it's closer to a convenience du jour, riding on the coattails of the victors in WWII ).

 

[MANT!]

The Germans feel guilty for WWII,

 

[Alidar Jarok]

The idea of the "melting pot" is kind of outdated, IMO. In elementary school, we used to learn that Canada is a "salad bar" instead of a melting pot, the idea being that there are many different cultures that co-exist along side one another. I think that's a more apt analogy for the United States, too, as the idea of assimilation has faded a little in favour of co-existence (or at least, this is the impression I have).

See, I disagree. Think of Chicken Parmigiana or Fetucini Alfredo. Are they Italian or American? Think of Mexican chain restaurants (for better or worse). Think of Tex Mex. Think of the thing you have at the end of a Chinese food meal. Do you know where the fortune cookie was invented? Think of Jewish delis. America isn't a place of co-existing. It's a place where foreign elements are incorporated into the culture. Sure, first generations exist side by side, but that's always been the case. It's the second and third generations that integrate and that's still the case.

Sure mi amigos en amigas

Well that's dirty.

 

[Canadave]

The idea of the "melting pot" is kind of outdated, IMO. In elementary school, we used to learn that Canada is a "salad bar" instead of a melting pot, the idea being that there are many different cultures that co-exist along side one another. I think that's a more apt analogy for the United States, too, as the idea of assimilation has faded a little in favour of co-existence (or at least, this is the impression I have).

See, I disagree. Think of Chicken Parmigiana or Fetucini Alfredo. Are they Italian or American? Think of Mexican chain restaurants (for better or worse). Think of Tex Mex. Think of the thing you have at the end of a Chinese food meal. Do you know where the fortune cookie was invented? Think of Jewish delis. America isn't a place of co-existing. It's a place where foreign elements are incorporated into the culture. Sure, first generations exist side by side, but that's always been the case. It's the second and third generations that integrate and that's still the case.

True, but it's also worth pointing out that all of the examples you named have been in America for 100+ years.

And the basic point I was making is not that new cultures don't integrate (as even in the "salad bar" metaphor, they have to to a degree), but that there's less pressure for new Americans to become exactly like everybody else, as you would have found 50 or 100 years ago.

 

[M'Sharak]

...

Little lone our politicians being all like; <snip>

"Little lone" - does that come from the same book of jargon as did "parrot phrasing"?

Just curious.

 

[Amaris]

The Germans feel guilty for WWII,

Aw, poor Germany.

 

[Gary7]

It's more like a collision. Things get mixed around. Some things break and get thrown into disarray. Some things bond together tightly. Then everybody has a different perception of what happened or a different opinion about whether it's good, bad, or other. Melting suggests it blends together so you can't see the constituent parts. I see the parts, just reorganized and adjacent to parts they'd usually not be near. Sometimes it works, sometimes it is a disaster.

There is a slight subtle trend towards "real" civility going on... social DNA is changing. But it has so far to go... the basic elements must change. People need to develop better social skills... learn to trust, be open minded, not so easily threatened, and demonstrate respect for one another. We don't consciously try to teach that, at least in the USA. We just hope for the best. And that's really not working. We still churn out far too many troubled people than we should at this point in human civil progress.

 

[DimesDan]

Yeah well, how else do you justify what I see when I go out to Tesco which is five minutes away by foot; In five minutes, I pass soo many faces and races that, I love it, but to do the math and averages; for per square mile, or twenty minutes -- I just don't want to think about calculating such a sum, but, then, I wonder, how do you explain the melting pot in London? Becuase I feel like I live on DS9 I jest .

I feel no need to justify it, I accept it for what it's worth and I rather like it, anyway, apart from a few outward differences and differences in ideology and the like, we're all the same, no need to make such a difference on how "diverse" somewhere is.

What is the point of this thread apart making an arse of yourself and shitting all over the English language?

Is English even your first language as even in the "Ghettos" of Surrey it should be better than it is demonstrated here.

 

[Australis]

...

Little lone our politicians being all like; <snip>

"Little lone" - does that come from the same book of jargon as did "parrot phrasing"?

Just curious.

Hmmmmm. You're right. Very reminiscent of someone... can't put my finger on it...

 

[iBender]

How about a quilt, that when you patch it together with everyone's own patch... It begins to look like the flag.

To quote Obama yet again;
"our patchwork heritage is an enormous strength"

I like that.

 

[iguana_tonante]

You're on a roll, but it's an unfair contest. After all, foreigners can't ever hope to understand America the way people who have been living here all our lives. Of course you'll make fools of them on a topic on which you've forgotten more than they could ever hope to know.

The "rights and laws" that are the underpinning of American national identity are not necessarily the underpinning of the identity of other nations that happen to have adopted them within the last century or so (it's far too generous to call them any sort of "common heritage" - I'd say it's closer to a convenience du jour, riding on the coattails of the victors in WWII ).

Well, at least we can rest assured that you are at least as ignorant about the rest of the world as you claim the rest of the world you claim is about the US.

See, I disagree. Think of Chicken Parmigiana or Fetucini Alfredo. Are they Italian or American?

Definitively American. There are no such things in Italy.

 

[Sean Aaron]

The "rights and laws" that are the underpinning of American national identity are not necessarily the underpinning of the identity of other nations that happen to have adopted them within the last century or so (it's far too generous to call them any sort of "common heritage" - I'd say it's closer to a convenience du jour, riding on the coattails of the victors in WWII ).

Well, I'm American because I was born there, so that's my national identity. I'm a British citizen by choice so that's another one, but I'm pretty much in "citizen of the world" mode - being Jewish means more to me than where I was born or where I'm currently living.

See, I disagree. Think of Chicken Parmigiana or Fetucini Alfredo. Are they Italian or American?

Definitively American. There are no such things in Italy.

Thank fuck you don't have Olive Garden there *shudder*.

I've been trying to figure out what this thread is about. Are we sharing our experiences of living in a multicultural society or what we've seen of them?

I think you can have an overarching culture, but the idea that it's pre-existing and the newcomers adapt to it is a false one: the new culture causes the other to change as well. People tend to cluster together with folk who share a common culture and sometimes the local population is resistant to newcomers. Although many people in this thread seem to be into multiculturalism, I think that if immigration controls weren't in place a lot less people would be. I know if there was a massive influx of Americans into Scotland I'd be pretty unhappy myself.

With regard to the "newcomers" effecting change in the existing culture like it or not the United States is going to have Spanish as an official second language, the demographics are in favour of that. Hell I wouldn't be surprised if 100 years from now Spanish is the majority language. Then of course you have the Chinese and Indians steadily spreading across the world, who knows what changes that will bring? Curry is already the most popular food in Britain and Japan - curry and rice could well become the default cuisine for a shared human culture in the future!

I doubt the places we regard as picture-postcard "melting pots" today will remain a picture of harmony as the influx of third world peoples increases. These are interesting times.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

The idea of the "melting pot" is kind of outdated, IMO. In elementary school, we used to learn that Canada is a "salad bar" instead of a melting pot, the idea being that there are many different cultures that co-exist along side one another. I think that's a more apt analogy for the United States, too, as the idea of assimilation has faded a little in favour of co-existence (or at least, this is the impression I have).

See, I disagree. Think of Chicken Parmigiana or Fetucini Alfredo. Are they Italian or American? Think of Mexican chain restaurants (for better or worse). Think of Tex Mex. Think of the thing you have at the end of a Chinese food meal. Do you know where the fortune cookie was invented? Think of Jewish delis. America isn't a place of co-existing. It's a place where foreign elements are incorporated into the culture. Sure, first generations exist side by side, but that's always been the case. It's the second and third generations that integrate and that's still the case.

True, but it's also worth pointing out that all of the examples you named have been in America for 100+ years.

And the basic point I was making is not that new cultures don't integrate (as even in the "salad bar" metaphor, they have to to a degree), but that there's less pressure for new Americans to become exactly like everybody else, as you would have found 50 or 100 years ago.

My brother's girlfriend's parents were immigrants to this country and don't even speak great English. She's about as American as possible with the exception that she's asian so she works really hard on math and science

Even if there isn't pressure, the same forces do the same work. People become "American-ized" and American becomes a bit more like the immigrant cultures. It always takes a generation or two. Even 100 years ago regardless of pressure and blatant racism, these cultures existed in their own enclaves until a few generations later, they were the same as everyone else.

See, I disagree. Think of Chicken Parmigiana or Fetucini Alfredo. Are they Italian or American?

Definitively American. There are no such things in Italy.

Yeah, I know. I've been told that Fettuccine Alfredo is considered a stereotype of American Italian food in Italy. But my point is the ingredients are inspired by Italian foods. They're just American now. American pizza is another one. Spaghetti and Meatballs is another. But none of these foods would be American if it weren't for Italian immigrants.

 

[DeafPoet]

Wow, I just read through this thread and I don't think I've ever seen so many food metaphors and similes.

Also, now I'm hungry. Thanks guys.