A Moral Dilemma

[Miss Chicken]

I am currently reading "Shadow" by Karin Alvtegen. At one point in the book one female characters, Halina, brings up a scenario and asks a man his opinion of it.

It goes like this (you might have heard it or something similar before)

There is a river full of crocodiles. One needs a boat to cross it. Per lives on one side of the river. He loves Eva who lives on the other side of the river. One day Per comes down with a serious illness and he rings Eva and asks her to come and help him. He explains how sick he is and asks her to hurry. But Eva does not have a boat so she goes to Erik who lives on the same side of the river as she and who has a boat. She explains the situation to him and asks him to lend him the boat so she can row across and help Per.

Erik refuses to help Eva for free. He says she has to have sex with him first and then he will row her across the river.

Eva is upset, so she goes to Olof and tells him what Erik said. She wants Olof to come with her and talk some sense into Erik. However Olof doesn't want to get involved and asks her to leave. So Eva see no alternative but to do as Erik wants, and even though he is a dusgusting old man she has sex with him and then he rows her across the river.

Eva arrives at Per's house and tells him him what has happened. Per is furious that Eva had sex with Erik and throws her out. Eva then goes to Sven and tells him that she was forced to sex with Erik so she could help Per, who then throws her out. Sven flies into a rage and goes to Per and beats him up.

Halina then says

"What I want to know is which of them is most in the wrong. Grade them from 1 to 5, with the one who was most in the wrong a five"

So I ask people here to grade them as well.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Men are dicks. That is your answer.

 

[Miss Chicken]

Well, yes. But some are bigger dicks than others. So you could grade them on their dickiness.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Men are dicks. That is your answer.

The real answer is that Halina is a chauvinist.

Eva - 1
Per - 4
Erik - 5
Olof - 4
Sven - 2

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Well, yes. But some are bigger dicks than others. So you could grade them on their dickiness.

eh, you see one dick you've seen them all.

 

[auntiehill]

So, is Sven supposed to be Eva's father or brother, or something?

I'd score it this way:

Erik--5
Sven-4
Per--3
Olaf-2
Eva-1 (well, zero actually)

 

[HAL.9000]

Well, yes. But some are bigger dicks than others. So you could grade them on their dickiness.

I've never met a woman who had issue with a "big dick."

Your dilemma is interesting and I cant say just yet.

 

[Beagleman]

Per - 4
Erik - 5
Olof - 3
Sven - 1
Eva - 0 (though she should try harder to meet new people, some that aren't assholes...)

 

[Miss Chicken]

I would say

1) Eva
2) Sven
3) Olof
4) Per
5) Erik

In the book Halina suggests that Olof is actually the 5 because he was the one who didn't do anything despite knowing that Eva was being wronged.

She also mentioned that if Eva is given a foreign name (i.e. a non-Swedish name in this case) than she begins to climb upwards on the list.

 

[thestrangequark]

We were presented with an almost identical scenario when I was in high school. The major differences being that the woman (Eva, in this version), simply wants to make a social call on her boyfriend. She dresses up in sexy clothes for their date. In this version the boat-owner (Erik, here) doesn't demand sex as payment for the ride initially. However, he is turned on by her sexiness and stops the boat in the middle of the river, demanding to have sex with her or he'll take her back to their side of the river.

It's disgusting how many people will rank Eva as being in the wrong for wearing sexy clothes. Also, the discussion that ensued resulted in the first and only time I was thrown out of class. Things got a little...heated between me and some of the people who ranked Eva as a 5.

 

[Miss Chicken]

^^^ That is interesting and it probably shows the cultural differences between the US and Sweden. I doubt the Swedes would consider sexy clothes to be much of a factor in this scenario.

 

[Jadzia]

I don't think we really know enough to cast judgement.

It doesn't say that Eva is in a relationship with Per, only that Per loves her. If she's not in a relationship with him, she can sleep with who she pleases.

She was a bit wrong to drag Olaf into her disagreement with Erik. She wanted Olaf to change Erik's mind, and expect him to take her side, but that process would possibly put Olaf and Erik's relationship in jeopardy. She shouldn't expect that to happen.

It was a bit wrong of her to say to Sven that she was forced, because she wasn't forced to do anything. She freely made a choice believing it to be for the greater good. Forced is too strong and emotive a choice of word.

Erik took advantage of Eva's predicament, but it's still his boat and he doesn't have to lend it to anyone. That's the whole point of personal property. If sex is the price he puts on it, so be it. We don't know the history between him and Per. They may dislike each other. They may be competing for Eva's love, so may not care to help him. We don't know what Per has done to him in the past.

Sven seems like a hot headed character, but we don't know if Per has a history with him, or if Per has a history of abusing people's kindness. When Sven went in a rage, did his rage calm by the time he arrived, and was able to talk calmly with Per? Did Per provoke Sven into beating him up? Who started that fight?

Extra information could change the perspective entirely.

Eva is the only character I feel I can judge: She freely made a choice believing it to be for the greater good, but managed to drag others into the chaos.

 

[Small White Car]

Eva is the only character I feel I can judge: She freely made a choice believing it to be for the greater good, but managed to drag others into the chaos.

Yes, the story is set up so that Eva is the only actual character here. The men are simply an obstacle course for the story to play out on. They're no different than a burning house or an angry dog or a hurricane in terms of storytelling.

Thus, it's nearly impossible to judge the moral-ness of their actions since they don't really have actions.* Only Eva acts so she's the only one with actions to judge.

* (Yes, Per gets mad and Sven fights, but those strike me less as choices so much as simply ripple-reactions to show what Eva's actions meant. I know this is somewhat amorphous, but if you think of it like a video game then Eva is the only character with a gun while the men are simple zombies run by some computer AI who can't even jump over walls and only react to Eva's movements. Or to bring up another analogy, it is Sophie who is the actual character in 'Sophie's Choice,' not the Nazis. You can judge Nazis in real life, but judging them in 'Sophie's Choice' is beside the point. They're simply there to make the story happen, so judging them in that film misses the point that it's about Sophie. Same thing here.)

 

[Captain_Nick]

I wouldn't rate any of them as being in the wrong. That hypothetical is an example of the way people treat each other. 'Right' and 'wrong' don't exist anywhere except inside my mind. And I don't put too much stock into that!

Now if I was in Eva's shoes - I wouldn't have told Per about the sexing. That's just common sense.

 

[Vulcan Princess]

I would say

1) Eva
2) Sven
3) Olof
4) Per
5) Erik

I would say this, too. (Though I might switch Sven and Olof. I'm torn on that one.) I remember doing this exercise in high school, but I don't remember what I said then. Too bad; it would be interesting to see if all those extra years of life experience changed my opinion.

 

[Spot's Meow]

5- Erik
4- Eva
3- Sven
2- Per
1- Olaf

I'm surprised that many say Eva is only at 1 or zero. She chose to have sex with Erik. To me that is too high a price to pay, even for a dying lover. To save my life or the life of a child or prevent severe injury to one of us is the only circumstance in which I think it would be morally okay to agree to the sex. The way I read this, she basically cheated on Per. Through her actions she is destroying the thing that she was trying to save. I would have gone back home and called for someone else to go help Per since I was physically unable to.

However, I still feel that Erik is most wrong here for demanding such an awful thing in the first place. If Per dies because Eva cannot get to him, it would be Erik that is ultimately to blame for his death. His selfishness and sexual perversion led to Per's death, and Eva cannot be held at fault for saying no to such a thing.

Per and Sven are on the same level to me, really. They haven't committed some great moral wrong, instead they are guilty of jealousy and false honor and pride. Those can be damaging as well, but ultimately they can be changed over time and these specific instances don't define the entire moral character of the person (whereas Eva's and Erik's choices do).

I see Olaf as completely neutral since he decided not to get involved. I think that, in his case, it is hard to assign any blame to him unless we had more information. We don't know his reasons for not getting involved, and those may actually be very good reasons. Or they may not. It's hard to say without knowing more.

 

[Captain_Nick]

She chose to have sex with Erik. To me that is too high a price to pay, even for a dying lover.

You can't be serious. You would allow your partner to die because you can't differentiate between delusional states of mind and reality?

 

[Spot's Meow]

She chose to have sex with Erik. To me that is too high a price to pay, even for a dying lover.

You can't be serious. You would allow your partner to die because you can't differentiate between delusional states of mind and reality?

No, as I said in my post, I would send someone else to help him since there are apparently telephones in this little world. Possibly Sven since he lives on that side of the river. I just don't accept that there aren't better alternatives.

 

[Captain_Nick]

Ha - serves me right for not reading the post in its entirety

 

[Small White Car]

You can't be serious. You would allow your partner to die because you can't differentiate between delusional states of mind and reality?

The story says he wanted her to "help him" and offers nothing to make me think she's a doctor.

Thus, as I read it, she had sex with an old man she disliked so she could cook some soup and turn on the TV for Per.

So, yeah, I am serious when I say I wouldn't have prostituted myself just for that!